Author Topic: Guitar in the Old Mass (Read 962 times)

Disputaciones · « **on:** March 19, 2016, 04:47:09 PM »

Does anyone know if there has ever been an Old Mass in which a guitar was used?

Matthew · « **Reply #1 on:** March 19, 2016, 05:06:04 PM »

Maybe as an abuse, back in the 60's or 70's...

It would have to be an abuse, because that's not one of the allowed instruments for use during liturgical services.

Funny you should bring this up --

Just today I was searching in Google "Salve Festa Dies guitar chords" because my son uses the named (e.g., guitar) chords for organ accompaniment.

I explained to him that it probably doesn't exist anywhere, because when the guitars came in to the Church, all the old songs (including all chant) went out the door.

Arsenius · « **Reply #2 on:** March 19, 2016, 10:31:38 PM »

Silent Night was originally accompanied by guitar at Holy Mass.

poche · « **Reply #3 on:** March 19, 2016, 11:42:33 PM »

It is very likely that guitars and other unconventional instruments were in use before the time of Pius X. One of the achievements of Pius X was a reform of the liturgy.

Disputaciones · « **Reply #4 on:** March 20, 2016, 11:17:52 AM »

Quote from: Arsenius

Silent Night was originally accompanied by guitar at Holy Mass.

If it was, it was only once a year and you can't really compare it to the guitar masses in the Novus Ordo, which are a lot louder etc.

Silent Night isn't part of the liturgy either, but the guitar in the new mass is. I meant as part of the liturgy itself if the same has happened in the Old Mass.

Arsenius · « **Reply #5 on:** March 20, 2016, 11:45:19 AM »

Unless you specifically mean electrically amplified guitars, you could argue that guitars, and their close relatives lutes and theorbos were definitely used during liturgical services during and prior to the 18th century. Instruments just sustain different pitches, the sounds/timbres they make can't be intrinsically sacred or profane. There are stops on the organ that sound pretty crazy. Listen to the voix humaine on a French classical organ (i.e., French baroque organ music) - it sounds like a herd of goats. There are sounds on the organ that imitate bird calls, etc. The association of guitars with rock music, etc. is decidedly modern.

Disputaciones · « **Reply #6 on:** March 20, 2016, 01:58:04 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

Maybe as an abuse, back in the 60's or 70's...

It would have to be an abuse, because that's not one of the allowed instruments for use during liturgical services.

Funny you should bring this up --

Just today I was searching in Google "Salve Festa Dies guitar chords" because my son uses the named (e.g., guitar) chords for organ accompaniment.

I explained to him that it probably doesn't exist anywhere, because when the guitars came in to the Church, all the old songs (including all chant) went out the door.

I don't have any Missal in my possession, 1962 or earlier.

Are you saying that, in the Missal, there is a section that specifically says which instruments can be used at Mass?

Arsenius · « **Reply #7 on:** March 20, 2016, 02:38:15 PM »

Quote from: Disputaciones

I don't have any Missal in my possession, 1962 or earlier.

Are you saying that, in the Missal, there is a section that specifically says which instruments can be used at Mass?

From "Tra le Sollecitudini" of Pope St. Pius X:

Quote

VI. Organ and instruments

15. Although the music proper to the Church is purely vocal music, music with the accompaniment of the organ is also permitted. In some special cases, within due limits and with proper safeguards, other instruments may be allowed, but never without the special permission of the Ordinary, according to prescriptions of the Caeremoniale Episcoporum.

16. As the singing should always have the principal place, the organ or other instruments should merely sustain and never oppress it.

17. It is not permitted to have the chant preceded by long preludes or to interrupt it with intermezzo pieces.

18. The sound of the organ as an accompaniment to the chant in preludes, interludes, and the like must be not only governed by the special nature of the instrument, but must participate in all the qualities proper to sacred music as above enumerated.

19. The employment of the piano is forbidden in church, as is also that of noisy or frivolous instruments such as drums, cymbals, bells and the like.

20. It is strictly forbidden to have bands play in church, and only in special cases with the consent of the Ordinary will it be permissible to admit wind instruments, limited in number, judiciously used, and proportioned to the size of the placeprovided the composition and accompaniment be written in grave and suitable style, and conform in all respects to that proper to the organ.

21. In processions outside the church the Ordinary may give permission for a band, provided no profane pieces be executed. It would be desirable in such cases that the band confine itself to accompanying some spiritual canticle sung in Latin or in the vernacular by the singers and the pious associations which take part in the procession.

No mention of guitars.

Disputaciones · « **Reply #8 on:** March 20, 2016, 03:25:53 PM »

Quote from: Arsenius

Quote from: Disputaciones

I don't have any Missal in my possession, 1962 or earlier.

Are you saying that, in the Missal, there is a section that specifically says which instruments can be used at Mass?

From "Tra le Sollecitudini" of Pope St. Pius X:
Quote

VI. Organ and instruments

15. Although the music proper to the Church is purely vocal music, music with the accompaniment of the organ is also permitted. In some special cases, within due limits and with proper safeguards, other instruments may be allowed, but never without the special permission of the Ordinary, according to prescriptions of the Caeremoniale Episcoporum.

16. As the singing should always have the principal place, the organ or other instruments should merely sustain and never oppress it.

17. It is not permitted to have the chant preceded by long preludes or to interrupt it with intermezzo pieces.

18. The sound of the organ as an accompaniment to the chant in preludes, interludes, and the like must be not only governed by the special nature of the instrument, but must participate in all the qualities proper to sacred music as above enumerated.

19. The employment of the piano is forbidden in church, as is also that of noisy or frivolous instruments such as drums, cymbals, bells and the like.

20. It is strictly forbidden to have bands play in church, and only in special cases with the consent of the Ordinary will it be permissible to admit wind instruments, limited in number, judiciously used, and proportioned to the size of the placeprovided the composition and accompaniment be written in grave and suitable style, and conform in all respects to that proper to the organ.

21. In processions outside the church the Ordinary may give permission for a band, provided no profane pieces be executed. It would be desirable in such cases that the band confine itself to accompanying some spiritual canticle sung in Latin or in the vernacular by the singers and the pious associations which take part in the procession.

No mention of guitars.

I know about that docuмent.

Is that docuмent in the '62 missal, as the Bull De Defectibus was in the Tridentine missal, for example?