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Offline Last Tradhican

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God Will Vomit Out the Lukewarm
« on: January 10, 2019, 03:48:49 AM »
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  • I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot. But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth (Apoc 3:15-16)

    What does the above quote mean to today's Catholics?

    I believe that it means that scarcely any Catholic will be saved, except the few real Catholics who have fear of God and go to frequent confession, real sincere, well though over confession. Scarcely any Catholic will be saved today.


    CATHOLICS NOT ASPIRING AND NOT LIVING AS SAINTS WILL GO TO HELL:



    a) They who are enlightened to walk in the way of perfection, and through lukewarmness wish to tread the ordinary paths, shall be abandoned. (Bl. Angela of Foligno)



    b) They who are to be saved as Saints, and wish to be saved as imperfect souls, shall not be saved. (Pope St. Gregory the Great)



    c) St. Teresa.... had she not risen from the state of lukewarmness in which she lived, she would in the end have lost the grace of God and been damned. ( St. Alphonsus Liguori)


    d) A multitude of souls fall into the depths of Hell. (St. Anthony Mary Claret - It has been revealed that on the day of the death of St. Bernard there also died 79,997 other people, and of this total of 80,000 who died, only St. Bernard and two other monks were saved.)


    e) If you only knew the women who will go to Hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it. ( St. John Vianney)


    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Vintagewife3

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    Re: God Will Vomit Out the Lukewarm
    « Reply #1 on: January 10, 2019, 07:27:24 AM »
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  • That last one is chilling.....


    Offline ggreg

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    Re: God Will Vomit Out the Lukewarm
    « Reply #2 on: January 10, 2019, 09:30:31 AM »
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  • What I don't understand, perhaps more accurately what I cannot reconcile, is how this was the mind of the Church in the past while today the diametric opposite is taught in thought, word and deed by the Church all over the world.

    Unless God has different standards for salvation depending on the age men live in (and I don't really see how this could be possible), then either the Church of the past was WAY to harsh on people or the Church of today is completely defective in its PRIMARY mission which is to save souls.  Or I suppose an third option, that the truth is somewhere in the middle, which would be even more troubling, because it means that they Church does not even know or have any insight into how hard it is to be saved.

    It really bothers me, because saving souls IS the primary mission of the Church.  If it cannot do that, then what good is it?  It's just a HUGE waste of time and energy and resources.  Failing in your primary mission is defaulting and defecting by definition.

    What kind of policeman would let people drive around at 130mph and just figure, "well they might be OK"?
    What kind of school teacher would let children slack all day in lessons and trust to luck they would pass exams ?
    What kind of parent would let their children have a sleep over at a house of a former paedophile and hope and trust he had reformed himself ?

    All of these people would be failing in their primary duty.  We would lock them up and throw away the key because they would be criminally negligent. 

    If the saints quoted are right and the vast majority of men are damned, then not just the modernists but even a large number of the conservative NO and Traditional priests are just guilty as the above examples.  And while I can accept that we may be in a period of history where the Church has defaulted in its mission, I really cannot get my head around how God can redeem the world and give it the Church to save souls and then allow things to get to a point where the entire hierarchy can not merely fail in their duty to teach, but actively teach people that they can hope that Hell is empty and God in his infinite Mercy finds some way to save the vast majority of men.  The period has gone on so long now that an entire generation of people have lived in a post-redemption world without a church to help them save their soul.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: God Will Vomit Out the Lukewarm
    « Reply #3 on: January 10, 2019, 10:44:06 AM »
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  • What I don't understand, perhaps more accurately what I cannot reconcile, is how this was the mind of the Church in the past while today the diametric opposite is taught in thought, word and deed by the Church all over the world.
    It still is the mind of the Church, always will be. The diametric opposite is taught in thought, word and deed by the Church's enemies within Her all over the world, but it's not taught by the Church.
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline ggreg

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    Re: God Will Vomit Out the Lukewarm
    « Reply #4 on: January 10, 2019, 12:00:33 PM »
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  • So the mind of the Church is essentially silent on the matter since the 1970s?  How does the mind of the Church help if the mind is not connected to the vocal cords?

    The Church's enemies (on this matter) all appear to be priests, bishops, Cardinals and Popes.  Pretty much exclusively THEY are spreading universal salvation as an idea.  Her secular enemies simply deny that Hell exists at all.  They don't suggest Hell exists but we can hope/trust it is empty or very difficult to go there, (which is even more insidious because not believing in it would always make you doubt on your deathbed whether you were correct.  Now you can die and not worry about going to Hell because you've not been such a bad person and certainly not the worst of the worst.)

    Again, this is not some minor point of theology such as whether canonisations are infallible or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

    This is really at the core of why the Church exists at all.  The mind of the Church does not turn up at your Catholic school, or your marriage prep, or on your deathbed and never speaks about this at the Sunday sermon either.  No modern church funeral will remind you what the mind of the Church even used to think about Hell let alone suggest it still thinks it.

    With other heresies one can hold erroneous beliefs and still behave in a virtuous fashion, still love God, fear Hell even though one is in error about the authority of the Pope or how the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and the Son.  However, if you are persuaded that Hell is very difficult to be damned to, for all eternity, this is bound to affect your moral behaviour and decisions.  It would certainly affect mine if I believed the chances of eternal damnation were very low.

    If there were magic diet pills far more people would overeat.  There are magic pregnancy stopping pills and look how many people use them


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: God Will Vomit Out the Lukewarm
    « Reply #5 on: January 10, 2019, 12:09:40 PM »
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  • So the mind of the Church is essentially silent on the matter since the 1970s?  How does the mind of the Church help if the mind is not connected to the vocal cords?

    The Church's enemies (on this matter) all appear to be priests, bishops, Cardinals and Popes.  Pretty much exclusively THEY are spreading universal salvation as an idea.  
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: God Will Vomit Out the Lukewarm
    « Reply #6 on: January 10, 2019, 12:37:38 PM »
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  • Canon of the Mass
    Therefore, we humbly pray and beseech Thee, most merciful Father, through Jesus Christ Thy Son, Our Lord, to receive and to bless these `†´ gifts, these `†´ presents, these `†´ holy unspotted sacrifices, which we offer up to Thee, in the first place, for Thy holy Catholic Church, that it may please Thee to grant her peace, to guard, unite, and guide her, throughout the world: as also for Thy servant N., our Pope, and N., our Bishop, and for all who are orthodox in belief and who profess the Catholic and apostolic faith.

    Notice that the unspotted sacrifice, Our Lord Jesus Christ, is offered up for the Holy Catholic Church, which is itself spotless as is Our Lord. The Holy Catholic Church is composed of those Catholics in a state of Grace, who are themselves spotless. The mass is also offered for the human element of the Church, which may not be spotless at the time, but are still members; the "Pope, and N., our Bishop, and for all who are orthodox in belief and who profess the Catholic and apostolic faith".

    Those that are not orthodox in belief and do not profess the Catholic and apostolic faith, are not members of the Church, even if they have the title of pope and bishop.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline cassini

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    Re: God Will Vomit Out the Lukewarm
    « Reply #7 on: January 15, 2019, 02:33:39 PM »
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  • What I don't understand, perhaps more accurately what I cannot reconcile, is how this was the mind of the Church in the past while today the diametric opposite is taught in thought, word and deed by the Church all over the world.

    Unless God has different standards for salvation depending on the age men live in (and I don't really see how this could be possible), then either the Church of the past was WAY to harsh on people or the Church of today is completely defective in its PRIMARY mission which is to save souls.  Or I suppose an third option, that the truth is somewhere in the middle, which would be even more troubling, because it means that they Church does not even know or have any insight into how hard it is to be saved.

    It really bothers me, because saving souls IS the primary mission of the Church.  If it cannot do that, then what good is it?  It's just a HUGE waste of time and energy and resources.  Failing in your primary mission is defaulting and defecting by definition.

    If the saints quoted are right and the vast majority of men are damned, then not just the modernists but even a large number of the conservative NO and Traditional priests are just guilty as the above examples.  And while I can accept that we may be in a period of history where the Church has defaulted in its mission, I really cannot get my head around how God can redeem the world and give it the Church to save souls and then allow things to get to a point where the entire hierarchy can not merely fail in their duty to teach, but actively teach people that they can hope that Hell is empty and God in his infinite Mercy finds some way to save the vast majority of men.  The period has gone on so long now that an entire generation of people have lived in a post-redemption world without a church to help them save their soul.

    Wow ggreg, now there is food for thought.

    Having been taught the faith by Archbishop Lefebvre's Holy Ghost Fathers in Catholic Ireland in the 1950s, I have lived through two different times of Catholicism. Now The 6,000 Holy Ghost Fathers of Ab. Lefebvre are down to a few and no longer teach in the Blackrock College I went to. In the 40s and 50s however, Catholicism was a way of living, we knew the faith, knew the commandments of God and His Church, went to Sunday Mass and devotions, all of us in each parish, and that was it. I was not aware of quotes by saints or churchmen telling us we would all go to hell if we missed Mass or committed a venial sin. We had the faith, tried to live up to it, knew God was forgiving, and those desiring to be with him would not be refused at the gates of heaven. Purgatory was the worse that could happen to those of us who believed, tried our human best, but knew such a cleansing would be necessary. Oh yes, we knew guys like Stalin and Hitler and other murderers would go to hell, but not anyone who went regularly to Mass. And yes, fear of Hell, that is fear of God, was the way older Catholiocs thought, and I remember that.

    Interestingly, Modernism brought more awareness of the love and forgiveness of God. Now that is as much Catholic teaching as fear of God. That is what all of us pray for, a forgiving God. But somehow fear of hell was eliminated causing a liberalising of Catholics.

    Today, when Catholics are denying the ten commandments and those of the Church, let alone sinning them, that certainly is a route to Hell. But those still trying to be good, still aware of God's commandments, still asking for forgiveness, still wanting to be with Him after death, Is God going to find a reason to condemn them to Hell? I hope not.


    Offline ggreg

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    Re: God Will Vomit Out the Lukewarm
    « Reply #8 on: January 15, 2019, 02:49:00 PM »
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  • Denying them?

    I'll bet you $1,000 that most Catholics can't even name the 10 commandments.

    I'd be surprised if they could name 7.  You cannot deny what you don't even know.

    The two most could name is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and "don't judge others", neither of which are commandments.


    As for the Commandments of the Church I very much doubt many novus ordo priests know all of them

    ---

    I don't want to start an EENS discussion in this thread but if you are going to save the ignorant >95% today then why not save the kind-hearted jungle bunnies running around in pre-Christian Africa, Asia, Oceania and the Americas?

    At face value 99.9% of the Church (religious) has failed in its mission to 99% of the laity.  That is an astonishing failure to teach.

    A third of the stars falling from heaven would be a good result compared to the current state of the Catholic Church around the world.  Perhaps the 1/3 of the stars is over the 2000 period and pretty much every adult today is damned.  Depressing stuff, but at least it makes sense according to scripture and is consistent with an objective truth.  Not sure how the Church is indefectible under this circumstance though.  What would defection look like otherwise?  100%?  How could that ever be demonstrated?

    Offline ggreg

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    Re: God Will Vomit Out the Lukewarm
    « Reply #9 on: January 15, 2019, 02:58:20 PM »
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  • There used to be 7 commandments of the Church in my little red and grey Penny Catechism.  I just Googled it and there seems to be 5 or 6 left depending on where you look.


    The Seven Precepts of the Church


    The Catechism of the Catholic Church lists 5 precepts. The last two are included elsewhere in the catechism but
    are not listed as precepts. And they are equally important. The original seven are listed here for historic educational value.


    I. To attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, and resting from servile works.

    II. To observe the days of abstinence and fasting.  (This is missing from some lists)

    III. To confess our sins to a priest, at least once a year.

    IV. To receive Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist at least once a year during Easter Season.

    V. To contribute to the support of the Church. 

    VI. To obey the laws of the Church concerning Matrimony.   ( ::))

    VII. To participate in the Church's mission of Evangelization of Souls. (Missionary Spirit of the Church)  (OK, that explains why 7 turned into 6)

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: God Will Vomit Out the Lukewarm
    « Reply #10 on: January 15, 2019, 03:23:18 PM »
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  • I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot. But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth (Apoc 3:15-16)

    What does the above quote mean to today's Catholics?

    I believe that it means that scarcely any Catholic will be saved, except the few real Catholics who have fear of God and go to frequent confession, real sincere, well though over confession. Scarcely any Catholic will be saved today.


    CATHOLICS NOT ASPIRING AND NOT LIVING AS SAINTS WILL GO TO HELL:



    a) They who are enlightened to walk in the way of perfection, and through lukewarmness wish to tread the ordinary paths, shall be abandoned. (Bl. Angela of Foligno)



    b) They who are to be saved as Saints, and wish to be saved as imperfect souls, shall not be saved. (Pope St. Gregory the Great)



    c) St. Teresa.... had she not risen from the state of lukewarmness in which she lived, she would in the end have lost the grace of God and been damned. ( St. Alphonsus Liguori)


    d) A multitude of souls fall into the depths of Hell. (St. Anthony Mary Claret - It has been revealed that on the day of the death of St. Bernard there also died 79,997 other people, and of this total of 80,000 who died, only St. Bernard and two other monks were saved.)


    e) If you only knew the women who will go to Hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it. ( St. John Vianney)
    I've seen these quotes a lot, but I've seen quotes just as old that state the odds as far less daunting. While different Saints have said different things about the salvation of souls, the Church has never said anything like 99.99625% of Catholics are damned. That's just a ridiculous figure to be honest, because remember this was at a time when Catholicism was the law of the land and everyone was far more devout and virtuous than even the minority of TradCatholics today, lukewarm V2 Catholics not even included. 
    While of course the path to salvation is straight and narrow, there wouldn't even be a need for Purgatory if the only people being saved were Saints as those quotes basically imply with figures like 3 out of 80,000. 


    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: God Will Vomit Out the Lukewarm
    « Reply #11 on: January 15, 2019, 11:39:18 PM »
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  • Denying them?

    I'll bet you $1,000 that most Catholics can't even name the 10 commandments.

    I'd be surprised if they could name 7.  You cannot deny what you don't even know.

    The two most could name is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and "don't judge others", neither of which are commandments.


    As for the Commandments of the Church I very much doubt many novus ordo priests know all of them
    And yet, have you ever heard of a N.O. Catholic who genuinely wanted to know more about their Faith but just couldn't find answers to their questions?
    .
    We now live in a time where answers are at your fingertips and most people with a desire to know more aren't going to bother knocking on their priest's door anyhow.
    "If I could only make the faithful sing the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Credo, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei ... that would be to me the finest triumph sacred music could have, for it is in really taking part in the liturgy that the faithful will preserve their devotion. I would take the Tantum ...

    Offline Quid Retribuam Domino

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    Re: God Will Vomit Out the Lukewarm
    « Reply #12 on: January 16, 2019, 12:12:05 AM »
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  • I've seen these quotes a lot, but I've seen quotes just as old that state the odds as far less daunting. While different Saints have said different things about the salvation of souls, the Church has never said anything like 99.99625% of Catholics are damned. That's just a ridiculous figure to be honest, because remember this was at a time when Catholicism was the law of the land and everyone was far more devout and virtuous than even the minority of TradCatholics today, lukewarm V2 Catholics not even included.
    While of course the path to salvation is straight and narrow, there wouldn't even be a need for Purgatory if the only people being saved were Saints as those quotes basically imply with figures like 3 out of 80,000.

    You sound very insecure.
    From the woman came the beginning of sin, and by her we all die. ~ Ecclesiasticus 25:33

    International Women's Day is a day we all celebrate Eve's rebellion at the Tree and our plummet into sin.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: God Will Vomit Out the Lukewarm
    « Reply #13 on: January 17, 2019, 04:54:29 AM »
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  • This is really at the core of why the Church exists at all.  The mind of the Church does not turn up at your Catholic school, or your marriage prep, or on your deathbed and never speaks about this at the Sunday sermon either.  No modern church funeral will remind you what the mind of the Church even used to think about Hell let alone suggest it still thinks it.
    No disagreement from me here. Yet in spite of all that, my question to you is, how is it that the mind of the Church is in you (and generally speaking, all trads) and presumably those in your care, in your home and all that you do?

    What is it that separates you (and generally speaking, all trads) from all those within the modern church? How is it that you are able to have / keep the mind of the Church at all, let alone hand it down to your children, all the while the modern church seeks to destroy it?       
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: God Will Vomit Out the Lukewarm
    « Reply #14 on: January 17, 2019, 11:54:40 AM »
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  • No disagreement from me here. Yet in spite of all that, my question to you is, how is it that the mind of the Church is in you (and generally speaking, all trads) and presumably those in your care, in your home and all that you do?

    What is it that separates you (and generally speaking, all trads) from all those within the modern church? How is it that you are able to have / keep the mind of the Church at all, let alone hand it down to your children, all the while the modern church seeks to destroy it?      
    I think the implication here is that Trad Catholics are better people or something slone those lines, excuse me if I' wrong, on account of having kept the faith. I'm not so sure, I've been very fortunate and blessed to *stumble* onto what I know, since that's the only way to describe how I came to learn the errors of V2. We've all been very fortunate whether by the family we have or the people we've known, all blessings given by God in their own way. 
    Now I'm not some modernist trying to argue in favour of BOD or "apostates go to heaven" or anything like that, but I don't think that most non-Trads and/or lapsed Catholics are maliciously ignorant by choice, that is ignoring hard truths. I think they're misled and misguided. It's one of the hardest times since pre-Constantine to keep the faith.
    The formal heretics in the Church and the heathenous Jews controlling our governments and media have blood on their hands, and are guilty for the damnation of millions of souls. While of course all who are damned are complicit and responsible for their damnation, I still see it as a form of entrapment by the Synagogue of Satan who take delight in sending what would otherwise be decent people to Hell. 

     

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