Author Topic: Frankie doesn't like us much, do he?  (Read 1803 times)

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Offline Kazimierz

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Frankie doesn't like us much, do he?
« on: June 03, 2019, 07:44:56 PM »
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  • Francis criticizes traditionalist Catholics who 'safeguard the ashes' of the past

    Aboard the papal flight from Romania — Pope Francis has criticized traditionalist Catholics who seek to "safeguard the ashes" of the past, saying the global church's centuries of tradition are not akin to a container for preserved objects but instead like roots to be drawn on for future growth.

    In a press conference aboard the papal flight back to Rome after his three-day visit to Romania, he singled out Catholic "fundamentalists," who he said have a nostalgia for "returning to the ashes."

    "Tradition is the guarantee of the future and not the container of the ashes," said Francis.

    "Tradition is like roots [of a tree], which give us nutrition to grow," he explained. "You will not become like the roots. You will flower, grow, give fruit. And the seeds become roots for other people."

    "The tradition of the church is always in movement," he said. "The tradition does not safeguard the ashes."

    Francis did not specify in his remarks whom he had in mind while speaking of Catholic traditionalists. But the pontiff has come under criticism during his six-year papacy from a vocal minority of Catholics, including some cardinals, who have expressed concern that he has not been clear in enunciating some of the church's teachings.

    Francis spoke about the church's tradition after being asked about his relationship with retired Pope Benedict XVI.

    Francis repeated his frequent characterization that having Benedict live in retirement at the Vatican is for him like having a grandfather at home. Francis said that going to speak with his predecessor always gives him strength.

    "I feel the nutrition coming up through the roots, and it helps me go forward," said Francis.


    Among other issues he spoke about in the half-hour press conference, the pope also made an impassioned plea for Catholics to pray for the future of the European Union, which he said has "aged" and is in danger of being "overcome by pessimism."

    In his first remarks about the 28-member block since European parliamentary elections last week resulted in gains for populist parties across the continent, the pope lamented the appearance of what he called "new borders" across the EU and said the organization "has lost the goal of working together."

    "Europe is not being attacked by cannons or bombs in this moment but by ideologies, ideologies that are not European, that come either from outside or that stem from small groups," he said.

    After referring to the tragedy of the two World Wars, he pleaded: "Please, let's not return to this. Let's learn from history. Let's not fall in the same hole."

    "I would say to believers, 'Pray for Europe … for unity, that the Lord will give us this grace,' " the pope added later.

    Francis had been in Romania May 31-June 2 for a visit that focused both on encouraging the country's minority Catholic population and reaching out to the 16-million-member Romanian Orthodox Church.

    Asked about his May 31 meeting with Romanian Orthodox Patriarch Daniel, Francis called him "a man of great heart, and a great scholar."

    "He is also a man of prayer," said the pope. "It is easy to get close to Daniel because I felt that he was a brother."

    Francis said that ecumenical relations between Catholics and Orthodox are built by walking together, and by jointly serving those in need.

    "There is already Christian unity," he said. "Let's not wait for the theologians to come to agreement on the Eucharist."

    "The Eucharist is celebrated everyday with prayer, with remembrance of the blood of our martyrs, with the works of charity, and also wanting each other to be well," he added.

    Francis also addressed the prayer service he and Daniel hosted together, in which the two leaders both recited the Our Father prayer in each other's presence, but separately — the pope going first in Latin, followed by the patriarch in Romanian.

    Some right-wing Orthodox consider it inappropriate for believers to pray with Catholics.

    The pope revealed that while the patriarch said the prayer in Romanian, Francis had said it again quietly in Italian. He said that from what he could see, "the majority" of the crowd gathered for the event at Bucharest's new Orthodox Cathedral had prayed both times.

    "The people went beyond us leaders," said Francis. "We leaders must have diplomatic balance, to ensure that we are going forward together. There are diplomatic rules that are good to safeguard, so as not to ruin the thing. But the people pray together."

    Making his first reference in the press conference to Catholic "fundamentalists," the pontiff said that even some Catholics are "closed" on the issue of praying with Orthodox, thinking them schismatics.

    "There are Catholic groups who are a bit fundamentalist," said the pope. "We must tolerate it, praying for them, so that the Lord and the Holy Spirit soften their hearts a bit."
    This is a serious journey,not a Hobbit walking party.

    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: Frankie doesn't like us much, do he?
    « Reply #1 on: June 03, 2019, 07:46:53 PM »
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  • Pope Francis praises Catholic archbishop for stepping in to ‘lead worship’ for Lutherans



    ROME, June 3, 2019 (LifeSiteNews) — Pope Francis today praised a Catholic archbishop for stepping in to “lead worship” at a Lutheran cathedral, saying it’s a sign of how far ecumenical relations have come.

    On his return flight from a three-day apostolic visit to Romania, the Pope was asked what “relationship” should exist between different religious confessions, and particularly between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

    “Ecumenism is not about reaching the end of the match, the discussion” the Pope said in response. “Ecumenism is accomplished by walking together, walking together, praying together – the ecumenism of prayer.” 

    “Walking together, this is already Christian unity,” he said, “but not waiting around until theologians agree so that we arrive at the Eucharist. The Eucharist is performed every day through prayer, through the remembrance of the blood of our martyrs, through works of charity, and also by loving one another.”  

    Pope Francis offered what he considers a true example of the “ecumenism of prayer,” telling journalists:

    Quote
    In one European city, there is a good relationship between the Catholic archbishop and the Lutheran archbishop. The Catholic archbishop was scheduled to come to the Vatican on Sunday evening, and he called me to say that he would arrive on Monday morning. When he arrived, he told me: “Excuse me, but yesterday the Lutheran archbishop had to go to one of their meetings, and he asked me: ‘Please, come to my cathedral and lead the worship.’” Eh, there’s fraternity. Coming this far is a lot. And the Catholic bishop preached. He did not do the Eucharist, but he preached. This is fraternity.

    He then explained that, as cardinal archbishop of Buenos Aires, he too was in the habit of preaching in Protestant churches.

    “I was invited to the Scottish church to preach a number of times,” he said. “I went there, I preached. You can do it. You can walk together. Unity, fraternity, extending a hand, looking after each other, not speaking ill of others.”

    “We all have defects,” he added, “but if we walk together let’s leave our defects to the side. Let the spinsters criticize us.”  

    In his inflight comments, Pope Francis then turned more specifically to Catholic-Orthodox relations.

    Responding to a follow-up question from a French reporter, who asked the pontiff what was going through his mind while he stood silent as Orthodox clergy and faithful prayed the ‘Our Father’ separately from Catholics, he said: “I’ll tell you a secret. I did not remain silent. I prayed the ‘Our Father’ in Italian.”

    He said the “majority” of faithful who were present prayed the ‘Our Father’ with both Orthodox and Catholics. “The people go beyond us leaders,” who “have to balance things diplomatically” and keep to “diplomatic customs and rules” so that “things don’t fall apart.” 

    The Pope added, however, that he and other religious leaders do pray together “when we are alone.”

    “I have the experience of prayer with many, many pastors: Lutherans, Evangelicals, and even Orthodox. The patriarchs are open,” he said.  

    The Pope then told journalists:

    Quote
    We Catholics also have closed people who do not want [to pray together] and say that the Orthodox are schismatics. That’s old business. The Orthodox are Christians. But there are some Catholic groups that are a bit fundamentalist. We have to tolerate them, and pray for them, that the Lord by the Holy Spirit softens their hearts. But I prayed during both [Our Fathers]. I did not watch [Romanian Orthodox Patriarch] Daniel, but I believe that he did the same.

    The traditional position of both Orthodox and Catholics is that public prayer with those in schism from the Church should not be attempted. This position has often softened in recent years partly due to ambiguity as to the existence of the schism between Rome and Constantinople. Stricter voices among Orthodox and Catholics would still maintain that all communicatio in sacris is forbidden with those outside the visible church.

    Pope Francis may be referring to the apparently changed situation of Catholic and Orthodox Churches relative to one another, brought about by the mutual withdrawal of excommunication between Rome and Constantinople issued at the end of the Second Vatican Council by Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras.

    However, whatever the significance of this event (and it should be said that the excommunication Paul VI withdrew was never validly served in the first place), Catholics do not pray for the Orthodox patriarchs in their liturgy nor do the Orthodox pray for the Pope. Nor is there sacramental intercommunion between the Churches. 

    Therefore, if the traditional Catholic prohibition against prayer with those outside the Church is still in force, then Catholics are not free to pray with the Orthodox nor (if they sincerely believe they are the true Church) are Orthodox free to pray with Catholics. This is the more hardline position of a significant portion of the Orthodox Communion.
    This is a serious journey,not a Hobbit walking party.


    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: Frankie doesn't like us much, do he?
    « Reply #2 on: June 03, 2019, 09:22:56 PM »
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  • After reading what Francis says, I’m starting to think he’s just a material heretic now.... no one that knows 1 thing about true Catholicism can be that Ignorant of the truth :facepalm: 
    Jorge Bergoglio isn’t even a real priest.

    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: Frankie doesn't like us much, do he?
    « Reply #3 on: June 03, 2019, 10:46:34 PM »
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  • After reading what Francis says, I’m starting to think he’s just a material heretic now.... no one that knows 1 thing about true Catholicism can be that Ignorant of the truth :facepalm:
    That does make sense. The last generation to have the Latin Mass as the main form of the Western liturgy (aka his) was the same generation that accepted all of Vatican II and completely apostasized.
    Tío Samuel, ven pa 'aca

    Online ByzCat3000

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    Re: Frankie doesn't like us much, do he?
    « Reply #4 on: June 03, 2019, 10:51:23 PM »
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  • After reading what Francis says, I’m starting to think he’s just a material heretic now.... no one that knows 1 thing about true Catholicism can be that Ignorant of the truth :facepalm:
    Which statement in particular makes you think that?  just curious.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Frankie doesn't like us much, do he?
    « Reply #5 on: June 04, 2019, 09:44:50 AM »
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  • Pope Francis has criticized traditionalist Catholics who seek to "safeguard the ashes" of the past, 
    I for one do not listen to anything that that clown says, but for the benefit of those who listen to him, they need to aske him what he means by this, to give concrete examples. Without that, he said nothing, he's just venting.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Frankie doesn't like us much, do he?
    « Reply #6 on: June 04, 2019, 09:57:05 AM »
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  • Francis also addressed the prayer service he and Daniel hosted together, in which the two leaders both recited the Our Father prayer in each other's presence, but separately — the pope going first in Latin, followed by the patriarch in Romanian.Some right-wing Orthodox consider it inappropriate for believers to pray with Catholics.
    Solemn Pronouncements from Dogmatic Counsels, and Papal Encyclicals:

    III Council of Constantinople, 680
    If any ecclesiastic or layman shall go into the synagogue of the Jews or the meeting-houses of the heretics to join in prayer with them, let them be deposed and deprived of communion. If any bishop or priest or deacon shall join in prayer with heretics, let him be suspended from communion.

    Council of Carthage, 418
    One must neither pray nor sing psalms with heretics, and whosoever shall communicate with those who are cut off from the communion of the church, whether clergy or layman; let him be excommunicated.

    Code of Canon Law, 1917
    #1258 - 1. It is not permitted at all for the faithful to assist in any active manner at or to have any part in the worship of non-Catholics.

    Excerps from "Mortalium Animos", Encyclical of Pope Pius XI, On Religious Unity, January 6, 1928.
    2. A similar object is aimed at by some, in those matters which concern the New Law promulgated by Christ our Lord. For since they hold it for certain that men destitute of all religious sense are very rarely to be found, they seem to have founded on that belief a hope that the nations, although they differ among themselves in certain religious matters, will without much difficulty come to agree as brethren in professing certain doctrines, which form as it were a common basis of the spiritual life. For which reason conventions, meetings and addresses are frequently arranged by these persons, at which a large number of listeners are present, and at which all without distinction are invited to join in the discussion, both infidels of every kind, and Christians, even those who have unhappily fallen away from Christ or who with obstinacy and pertinacity deny His divine nature and mission. Certainly such attempts can nowise be approved by Catholics, founded as they are on that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy, since they all in different ways manifest and signify that sense which is inborn in us all, and by which we are led to God and to the obedient acknowledgment of His rule. Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it, and little by little. turn aside to naturalism and atheism, as it is called; from which it clearly follows that one who supports those who hold these theories and attempt to realize them, is altogether abandoning the divinely revealed religion.

    3. But some are more easily deceived by the outward appearance of good when there is question of fostering unity among all Christians.

    4. Is it not right, it is often repeated, indeed, even consonant with duty, that all who invoke the name of Christ should abstain from mutual reproaches and at long last be united in mutual charity? Who would dare to say that he loved Christ, unless he worked with all his might to carry out the desires of Him, Who asked His Father that His disciples might be "one"[1]. And did not the same Christ will that His disciples should be marked out and distinguished from others by this characteristic, namely that they loved one another: "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another"[2]? All Christians, they add, should be as "one": for then they would be much more powerful in driving out the pest of irreligion, which like a serpent daily creeps further and becomes more widely spread, and prepares to rob the Gospel of its strength. These things and others that class of men who are known as pan-Christians continually repeat and amplify; and these men, so far from being quite few and scattered, have increased to the dimensions of an entire class, and have grouped themselves into widely spread societies, most of which are directed by non-Catholics, although they are imbued with varying doctrines concerning the things of faith. This undertaking is so actively promoted as in many places to win for itself the adhesion of a number of citizens, and it even takes possession of the minds of very many Catholics and allures them with the hope of bringing about such a union as would be agreeable to the desires of Holy Mother Church, who has indeed nothing more at heart than to recall her erring sons and to lead them back to her bosom. But in reality beneath these enticing words and blandishments lies hid a mostgrave error, by which the foundations of the Catholic faith are completely destroyed.

    5. Admonished, therefore, by the consciousness of Our Apostolic office that We should not permit the flock of the Lord to be cheated by dangerous fallacies, We invoke, Venerable Brethren, your zeal in avoiding this evil; for We are confident that by the writings and words of each one of you the people will more easily get to know and understand those principles and arguments which We are about to set forth, and from which Catholics will learn how they are to think and act when there is question of those schemes which have for their end the union in one body, whatsoever be the manner, of all who call themselves Christians.

    8. This being so, it is clear that the Apostolic See cannot on any terms take part in their assemblies, nor is it anyway lawful for Catholics either to support or to work for such enterprises; for if they do so they will be giving countenance to a false Christianity,  quite alien to the one Church of Christ.

    9. These pan-Christians who turn their minds to uniting the churches seem, indeed, to pursue the noblest of ideas in promoting charity among all Christians: nevertheless how does it happen that this charity tends to injure faith? Everyone knows that John himself, the Apostle of love, who seems to reveal in his Gospel the secrets of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and who never ceased to impress on the memories of his followers the new commandment "Love one another," altogether forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt version of Christ's teaching: "If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you"[18]. For which reason, since charity is based on a complete and sincere faith, the
    disciples of Christ must be united principally by the bond of one faith.

    10. So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it. To the one true Church of Christ, we say, which is visible to all, and which is to remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Frankie doesn't like us much, do he?
    « Reply #7 on: June 04, 2019, 10:00:50 AM »
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  • After reading what Francis says, I’m starting to think he’s just a material heretic now.... no one that knows 1 thing about true Catholicism can be that Ignorant of the truth :facepalm:

    He knows enough about Traditional to constantly deride and reject it, and that speaks more to formal heresy than material.


    Offline clarkaim

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    Re: Frankie doesn't like us much, do he?
    « Reply #8 on: June 04, 2019, 11:30:59 AM »
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  • if he is not a Heretic, can we really say anyone is?    Always waaaayy to much rationalization on this kind of stuff.   call a spade a spade please.  

    Offline poche

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    Re: Frankie doesn't like us much, do he?
    « Reply #9 on: June 04, 2019, 11:55:32 PM »
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  • Pope Francis praises Catholic archbishop for stepping in to ‘lead worship’ for Lutherans



    ROME, June 3, 2019 (LifeSiteNews) — Pope Francis today praised a Catholic archbishop for stepping in to “lead worship” at a Lutheran cathedral, saying it’s a sign of how far ecumenical relations have come.

    On his return flight from a three-day apostolic visit to Romania, the Pope was asked what “relationship” should exist between different religious confessions, and particularly between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

    “Ecumenism is not about reaching the end of the match, the discussion” the Pope said in response. “Ecumenism is accomplished by walking together, walking together, praying together – the ecumenism of prayer.”

    “Walking together, this is already Christian unity,” he said, “but not waiting around until theologians agree so that we arrive at the Eucharist. The Eucharist is performed every day through prayer, through the remembrance of the blood of our martyrs, through works of charity, and also by loving one another.”  

    Pope Francis offered what he considers a true example of the “ecumenism of prayer,” telling journalists:

    He then explained that, as cardinal archbishop of Buenos Aires, he too was in the habit of preaching in Protestant churches.

    “I was invited to the Scottish church to preach a number of times,” he said. “I went there, I preached. You can do it. You can walk together. Unity, fraternity, extending a hand, looking after each other, not speaking ill of others.”

    “We all have defects,” he added, “but if we walk together let’s leave our defects to the side. Let the spinsters criticize us.”  

    In his inflight comments, Pope Francis then turned more specifically to Catholic-Orthodox relations.

    Responding to a follow-up question from a French reporter, who asked the pontiff what was going through his mind while he stood silent as Orthodox clergy and faithful prayed the ‘Our Father’ separately from Catholics, he said: “I’ll tell you a secret. I did not remain silent. I prayed the ‘Our Father’ in Italian.”

    He said the “majority” of faithful who were present prayed the ‘Our Father’ with both Orthodox and Catholics. “The people go beyond us leaders,” who “have to balance things diplomatically” and keep to “diplomatic customs and rules” so that “things don’t fall apart.”

    The Pope added, however, that he and other religious leaders do pray together “when we are alone.”

    “I have the experience of prayer with many, many pastors: Lutherans, Evangelicals, and even Orthodox. The patriarchs are open,” he said.  

    The Pope then told journalists:

    The traditional position of both Orthodox and Catholics is that public prayer with those in schism from the Church should not be attempted. This position has often softened in recent years partly due to ambiguity as to the existence of the schism between Rome and Constantinople. Stricter voices among Orthodox and Catholics would still maintain that all communicatio in sacris is forbidden with those outside the visible church.

    Pope Francis may be referring to the apparently changed situation of Catholic and Orthodox Churches relative to one another, brought about by the mutual withdrawal of excommunication between Rome and Constantinople issued at the end of the Second Vatican Council by Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras.

    However, whatever the significance of this event (and it should be said that the excommunication Paul VI withdrew was never validly served in the first place), Catholics do not pray for the Orthodox patriarchs in their liturgy nor do the Orthodox pray for the Pope. Nor is there sacramental intercommunion between the Churches.

    Therefore, if the traditional Catholic prohibition against prayer with those outside the Church is still in force, then Catholics are not free to pray with the Orthodox nor (if they sincerely believe they are the true Church) are Orthodox free to pray with Catholics. This is the more hardline position of a significant portion of the Orthodox Communion.
    I tend to agree. I think that the bishop should lead the Protestants away from their false religion.

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Frankie doesn't like us much, do he?
    « Reply #10 on: June 05, 2019, 12:56:02 PM »
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  • Mr. Bergoglio's hypocrisy should be as physically painful as it is spiritually lethal. Jorge is, above all else, "safeguarding the ashes of tradition"—one and the same traditions of the Pharisees that Jesus Christ damned.

    talmudic zingers from the anti-Pope
     
    “God is purifying the church with sin”
    March 7, 2019
     
    “…the memory of him [Jesus] who has made himself sin, who has made himself the devil, the serpent, for us; he has humbled himself to the point of complete annihilation.”
    April 4, 2017
     
    “Inside the Holy Trinity they’re all arguing behind closed doors but on the outside they give the picture of unity.”
    March 17, 2017
     
    “…a priest that over weeks gives antisemitic talks until Jesus, on the cross, looks at the Virgin, who was at his side, and says to her,
    'Mom, let's go since they don't like us;”
    January 17, 2014

    1 week after Bergoglio was “elected,” his newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, recommended daily Talmud study
     
    L’Osservatore Romano recommends Daf Yomi (Daily Talmud Lessons)
    http://callmejorgebergoglio.blogspot.com/2018/06/losservatore-romano-reccomends-daf-yomi.html
     




    Quote
    “As regular readers of [Call Me Jorge] know, Francis is into all things Judaic, especially Chasidism.  Their doctrines creep out here and there in Francis’ sermons and documents.  One of the things which Francis does with regularity is to invert the teachings of the Church.  An example of this is the use of the term ‘pharisee’ which he applies to his enemies, who are not open to Talmudic Judaism and Francis’ anti-Catholic machinations.  Another example is his favorite blasphemous painting, White Crucifixion.  Francis shows his hand, when he inverts Catholic doctrine, as a modernist change agent who is simply following the dictates of ‘The Rebbe’ to be, “modern on the outside and Chabad on the inside.” One of the most blatant examples is Francis teaching the Talmudic formula: Yeridah Tzorech Aliyah (“descent for sake of ascent”).  This teaching simply means that one has to descend into sin, which paradoxically has a positive status in Hasidism, in order to ascend to new heights.  This is done because the god of Talmudic Judaism is one of opposites — a hermaphrodite god of good/evil.  In the Hasidic lore, tzaddiks (saints or righteous people) wrestle not with evil but with goodness as they descend into sin in this process in order to ascend into righteousness.  Yeridah Tzorech Aliyah is one of the foundational beliefs of Orthodox Talmudic Judaism along with Tikkun Olam.  In the later belief the rabbis have the chutzpah to state that God made creation imperfect and the Talmudic Jews are to correct his work.…”


    the Rebbe explains the Hasidic stratagem of “descent for sake of ascent”
    https://callmejorgebergoglio.blogspot.com/2017/12/the-rebbe-explains-hasidic-stratagem-of.html


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Frankie doesn't like us much, do he?
    « Reply #11 on: June 05, 2019, 01:20:23 PM »
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  • I tend to agree. I think that the bishop should lead the Protestants away from their false religion.

    Pinch me.  poche, are you starting to wake up a little?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Frankie doesn't like us much, do he?
    « Reply #12 on: June 05, 2019, 04:12:00 PM »
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  • I tend to agree. I think that the bishop should lead the Protestants away from their false religion.
    :applause:Are you serious? 

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Frankie doesn't like us much, do he?
    « Reply #13 on: June 05, 2019, 04:26:58 PM »
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  • Pinch me.  poche, are you starting to wake up a little?
    Eh, I think he's questioning the bishop, but I'm willing to bet that he will never come out and condemn Bergoglio.
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Frankie doesn't like us much, do he?
    « Reply #14 on: June 05, 2019, 04:36:36 PM »
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  • Eh, I think he's questioning the bishop, but I'm willing to bet that he will never come out and condemn Bergoglio.
    :(

     

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