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Online Judith 15 Ten

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Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
« Reply #45 on: Today at 01:56:20 PM »
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  • Yes but, following on from your logic here, it'd be impossible for us to ever have a Pope again bar a sudden mass conversion of the Novus Ordo clergy. And even that would have some issues, seeing as their validity is certainly in question.

    Do you know how to read? Only the Cardinalate would have to convert.

    "Vacante Sede Apostolica, promulgated by Pius X, in 1904.  See # 17 [...] the right to elect the Roman Pontiff belongs solely and exclusively to the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church".
    "All others being absolutely excluded whatsoever ecclesiastical or lay position they may have."

    I advise you to take remedial reading to improve your comprehension.

    Regarding the question of the Cardinalate's validity, they still hold material offices and positions of their bishopric and cardinalate, therefore, if they were to publicly abjure their heresy, Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Sacrilege, their material episcopacy and cardinalate would be made whole & formal, hence, they'd become valid bishops and cardinals of the Catholic Church, and they could elect a legitimate pope.
    Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array? ~ Canticle of Canticles 6:9

    Online Clemens Maria

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #46 on: Today at 02:01:50 PM »
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  • “Only the College of Cardinals can elect a pope”

    The College of Cardinals didn’t exist for the first 800 years of the Church’s existence and they were not the sole electors of the pope until the 12th century.  Clearly it is not by Divine law/institution that they are so now.  So it is by the Church’s disciplinary law that only the Cardinals can elect the pope.  But a disciplinary law has no force in cases where necessity dictates an act contrary to the law.  e.g. exceeding the speed limit to rush an injured person to the hospital.

    On the other hand, that the hierarchy is solely responsible for the election of the pope is by Divine institution.  So that law can not be violated under any circumstances.

    As you mentioned, and no one would disagree, an imperfect General Council can elect a pope.  But you also say that only the jurisdictional hierarchy can convoke a General Council.  Can you provide a reference for that?  Not that I have never heard that before but I have never seen a pre-Vatican 2 reference for it.

    It certainly isn’t required that the electors of the pope must have ordinary jurisdiction because otherwise how is it that the pope was elected in the past by the local clergy of Rome?

    “as we know that it is impossible that the Church is left without possible electors of the [Pope].”

    Yes because the Church is a perfect society.  And a perfect society contains within itself everything necessary to fulfill its mission.  But the Novus Ordo is not within the Church.  So the notion that the legitimate electors are non-Catholic members of the Vatican 2 sect would place the electors (necessary for the continuation of the Church) outside the Church.  The material designation wouldn’t put them inside the Church. Because a manifest heretic is outside the Church.

    When I use the term Roman clergy I mean to include all the members (clerics) of the local diocese of Rome including the Cardinals, the auxiliary bishops, the priests, deacons, subdeacons, porters, etc as defined by the canon which you quoted.

    You asked who can reverse disciplinary law?  In cases of necessity a disciplinary law does not bind and the authority to elect the pope devolves to the highest existing authority in the hierarchy of the Church.  These types of scenarios were contemplated by pre-Vatican 2 theologians and as far as I know I’m not proposing a novel point of view.  Maybe it’s not a popular view but I didn’t make anything up.  I’m basing my view on what pre-Vatican 2 theologians have written.

    Finally, I disagree that there are no traditional Catholic clerics in Rome.  I’m sure Fr Abramovitz knows better than I. Msgr Fenton and Msgr Van Noort both speculated about the possibility that a nuclear war could wipe out whole dioceses and even possibly all of them except the Roman See.  It has been asserted by many theologians that the Roman See will always have at least some faithful living there or at least associated with the See even if they might be in exile.  Of course it is dogma that the Holy See will never fail but to what level it can be reduced is not clear.


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #47 on: Today at 02:23:17 PM »
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  • Do you know how to read? Only the Cardinalate would have to convert.

    "Vacante Sede Apostolica, promulgated by Pius X, in 1904.  See # 17 [...] the right to elect the Roman Pontiff belongs solely and exclusively to the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church".
    "All others being absolutely excluded whatsoever ecclesiastical or lay position they may have."

    I advise you to take remedial reading to improve your comprehension.

    Regarding the question of the Cardinalate's validity, they still hold material offices and positions of their bishopric and cardinalate, therefore, if they were to publicly abjure their heresy, Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Sacrilege, their material episcopacy and cardinalate would be made whole & formal, hence, they'd become valid bishops and cardinals of the Catholic Church, and they could elect a legitimate pope.
    There are quite a lot of Cardinals. It's still a mass conversion. 

     

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