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Author Topic: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty  (Read 3689 times)

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Offline DLaurentius

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Re: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2018, 09:43:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Charlemagne on August 04, 2018, 06:01:15 PM
    Using your standard, what "proper authority" declared the NOM to be a protestantized Mass? Those who consider Francis-Bergoglio to be an illegitimate or at least doubtful pope recognize the same protestant deficiencies in him, namely, he's not a Catholic, same as the NOM isn't Catholic. (FWIW, I consider it to be valid but illicit. I believe Our Lord is made present but only by an illegal act performed by criminals, just as He was present before Pontius Pilate but only by an illegal act performed by criminals. He's a prisoner Who's mocked in the NOM as much as He was as He stood before the Sanhedrin and suffered its mockery, but only by His will. Fiat voluntas tua.) It's rank hypocrisy for R&Rs to criticize sedevacantists, sedeprivationists (of whom I'm one), and sededoubtists (Ladislaus) for using "private judgment" to recognize Francis-Bergoglio as a spade and label him as such, when R&Rs themselves use "private judgment" to recognize the NOM as a spade and label it as such (as we all should). In actuality, of course, none of this is "private judgment"; it's good, old-fashioned sensus Catholicus. Bottom line: Either we're all "guilty" or none of us are.
    Anyone can declare the Novus Ordo Mass to be Protestantized because it has many Protestant characteristics. We can declare a Pope's actions to be non-Catholic if his actions go against the Catholic Faith. However, I am not sure that we can declare a Pope to be non-Catholic because we have no authority over him, and we cannot fully know his intentions. 

    A proper authority for declaring an anti-Pope would most likely be a reigning Pope (or in some cases the College of Cardinals). 
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    Offline DLaurentius

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    Re: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty
    « Reply #46 on: August 05, 2018, 07:11:21 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on August 04, 2018, 09:10:39 PM
    Questions for you:

    (1) Who would that proper authority be? another Novus Ordo cleric who believes and professes the same Vatican 2 heresies as Francis? And if Francis is a valid pope and no one can make a private judgement that he has lost his office who is even allowed to judge a true and valid pope?

    (2) What would Francis have to do or say that would lead you to believe he lost his office or at least probably lost his office? approving female priests? Approving ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity?  In other words, how far do your goal posts move?

    Comment: I will give you credit for at least tackling Francis recent heretical antics.  Most posters on this forum seem to be avoiding the main issue...either by not posting/ignoring it or attacking those that are not ignoring it and making no substantive, thoughtful comments.
    I answered your first question in my last post while I was responding to Charlemagne.

    My answer to your second question is that, generally speaking, a reigning Pope would have to resign or become deceased to lose his Papacy. If His Holiness Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI came out and stated that he was forced to resign, then I would be inclined to no longer accept the Papacy of His Holiness Pope Francis. A Pope can make heretical statements and still retain his Papacy if he is a material heretic. 
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty
    « Reply #47 on: August 05, 2018, 09:16:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: DLaurentius on August 05, 2018, 07:11:21 AM
    I answered your first question in my last post while I was responding to Charlemagne.

    My answer to your second question is that, generally speaking, a reigning Pope would have to resign or become deceased to lose his Papacy. If His Holiness Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI came out and stated that he was forced to resign, then I would be inclined to no longer accept the Papacy of His Holiness Pope Francis. A Pope can make heretical statements and still retain his Papacy if he is a material heretic.
    OK, so according to you, Francis can say, do or teach whatever and remain pope.

    At least you're honest.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty
    « Reply #48 on: August 05, 2018, 09:18:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: DLaurentius on August 04, 2018, 09:43:07 PM
    Anyone can declare the Novus Ordo Mass to be Protestantized because it has many Protestant characteristics. We can declare a Pope's actions to be non-Catholic if his actions go against the Catholic Faith. However, I am not sure that we can declare a Pope to be non-Catholic because we have no authority over him, and we cannot fully know his intentions.

    A proper authority for declaring an anti-Pope would most likely be a reigning Pope (or in some cases the College of Cardinals).
    Actually, that's not true:

    If any one saith, that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, which the Catholic Church makes use of in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety, rather than offices of piety; let him be anathema. - Council of Trent
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty
    « Reply #49 on: August 05, 2018, 09:27:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: DLaurentius on August 04, 2018, 09:43:07 PM
    Anyone can declare the Novus Ordo Mass to be Protestantized because it has many Protestant characteristics. We can declare a Pope's actions to be non-Catholic if his actions go against the Catholic Faith. However, I am not sure that we can declare a Pope to be non-Catholic because we have no authority over him, and we cannot fully know his intentions.

    A proper authority for declaring an anti-Pope would most likely be a reigning Pope (or in some cases the College of Cardinals).
    The College of Cardinals would still be a true pope's inferior.  A "reigning pope" would mean we had better get a Catholic as pope when Francis dies or resigns.....but who will vote him in?
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty
    « Reply #50 on: August 05, 2018, 06:17:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on August 05, 2018, 09:27:53 AM
    The College of Cardinals would still be a true pope's inferior.  A "reigning pope" would mean we had better get a Catholic as pope when Francis dies or resigns.....but who will vote him in?
    Isn't that a bit of a problem for some sedevacantist positions? As far as I know all the current cardinals were appointed by JP2, B16 or F. I think there is only one cardinal appointed by Paul VI still alive, Benedict. For those who think none of these could legitimately appoint a cardinal, what would they think happens?
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty
    « Reply #51 on: August 05, 2018, 06:48:02 PM »
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    • My point was an issue we ALL have:  how does one get a reigning Catholic pope when the Cardinals are Vatican II religionists?
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty
    « Reply #52 on: August 06, 2018, 05:26:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on August 05, 2018, 06:48:02 PM
    My point was an issue we ALL have:  how does one get a reigning Catholic pope when the Cardinals are Vatican II religionists?
    Perhaps they get inspired to try someone different? Perhaps the person they choose goes in an unexpected direction?
    Shouldn't we be confident God will work it out somehow? I've seen often enough that even when a priest doesn't really have the best intentions, somehow God can still achieve some good out of it.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty
    « Reply #53 on: August 06, 2018, 05:31:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on August 06, 2018, 05:26:20 PM
    Perhaps they get inspired to try someone different? Perhaps the person they choose goes in an unexpected direction?
    Shouldn't we be confident God will work it out somehow? I've seen often enough that even when a priest doesn't really have the best intentions, somehow God can still achieve some good out of it.
    Yes miracles can happen. 
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)
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