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Author Topic: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ  (Read 6292 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2019, 01:37:24 PM »
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    • There isn't any actual proof that Pope Francis denied the Divinity of Christ. That doesn't mean that he didn't say it, but since there's no proof, except for a second-hand testimony, then no formal case can be made against him.

    Even if Francis were to state outright that Christ is not Divine, there would still be difficulty in dealing with him, or removing him. The Church does not have a set doctrine or formula on how to deal with a Pope who has fallen into heresy. We can quote our favorite theologians on the subject all we want, but there was, and is, no consensus or unanimity on the subject by all of the various theologians, regarding a Pope who falls into heresy.  
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #46 on: October 10, 2019, 01:49:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on October 10, 2019, 01:37:24 PM
    There isn't any actual proof that Pope Francis denied the Divinity of Christ. That doesn't mean that he didn't say it, but since there's no proof, except for a second-hand testimony, then no formal case can be made against him.

    Even if Francis were to state outright that Christ is not Divine, there would still be difficulty in dealing with him, or removing him. The Church does not have a set doctrine or formula on how to deal with a Pope who has fallen into heresy. We can quote our favorite theologians on the subject all we want, but there was, and is, no consensus or unanimity on the subject by all of the various theologians, regarding a Pope who falls into heresy.  
    By your standards of proof, there is no proof that Christ rose from the dead either, just a bunch of second-hand testimony.  
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #47 on: October 10, 2019, 01:55:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: TKGS on October 10, 2019, 01:49:10 PM
    By your standards of proof, there is no proof that Christ rose from the dead either, just a bunch of second-hand testimony.  

    So second-hand testimony is considered, by the Church, as definite proof?

    I understand that's it's proof for sedes, who will believe absolutely anything that backs up their sede views. But I'm fairly sure that the Church doesn't operate that way.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #48 on: October 10, 2019, 02:17:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on October 10, 2019, 01:37:24 PM
    …then no formal case can be made against him. …
    And yet… in the feelings of harpy popolators, even "Jesus sinned and made Himself the devil" is insufficient for a "formal case" against Jorge.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #49 on: October 10, 2019, 02:30:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on October 10, 2019, 01:37:24 PM
    There isn't any actual proof that Pope Francis denied the Divinity of Christ. That doesn't mean that he didn't say it, but since there's no proof, except for a second-hand testimony, then no formal case can be made against him.

    Even if Francis were to state outright that Christ is not Divine, there would still be difficulty in dealing with him, or removing him. The Church does not have a set doctrine or formula on how to deal with a Pope who has fallen into heresy. We can quote our favorite theologians on the subject all we want, but there was, and is, no consensus or unanimity on the subject by all of the various theologians, regarding a Pope who falls into heresy.  

    Meg-

    You are catching flack because sedes want this news to be true, in order to make their position appear less ridiculous.

    But you have the good sense to require proof of the allegation before making any judgments deriving from the allegation.

    This enrages them.

    But even Ladislaus acknowledges Scalfari is not a reputable source.

    Good for you for not losing your head when all about you are losing theirs.

    Only a fool would make such a monumental decision as declaring the pope deposed on the basis of second-hand information from a disreputable source, twice-rebuked by the Vatican for spreading misinformation (probably in the furtherance of his own atheistic agenda).
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #50 on: October 10, 2019, 02:38:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on October 10, 2019, 01:55:24 PM
    So second-hand testimony is considered, by the Church, as definite proof?

    I understand that's it's proof for sedes, who will believe absolutely anything that backs up their sede views. But I'm fairly sure that the Church doesn't operate that way.
    No.  But you need to remember it's as good as the proof of the Resurrection.

    But we also have to consider that Bergoglio has given five or six interviews to this man who has reported Bergoglio's belief in numerous heresies which Bergoglio has never, ever contradicted or corrected if he was reporting incorrectly.  This fact itself tends to the credibility of the witness.
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #51 on: October 10, 2019, 02:41:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 10, 2019, 02:30:15 PM
    You are catching flack because sedes want this news to be true, in order to make their position appear less ridiculous.
    This is just stupid.  By your own admission, Bergoglio is on public record uttering many heresies.  This one more doesn't really change anything.

    The people who sound ridiculous are those who admit the heresies but reject the only conclusion a rational man can make regarding them by rejecting sound doctrine.  
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #52 on: October 10, 2019, 02:49:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 10, 2019, 09:27:48 AM
    Bergoglio has been turning many people into sedevacantists, including some in the Novus Ordo.  I myself believe that Siri was the legitimate Pope, but I do not believe that he appointed successors.  So I reject the usual accusation against sedevacantism that the See has been vacant for 61 years.  It's only been about 30.
    By my calculations, hypothetically speaking , of course. Siri was Pope from 1958 until his death in 1989. Four "conclaves" including 1958 took place between that time- all falsely elected anti-popes. JPll was anti-pope from 1978-2005. The years 1989-2005 had no legitimate Pope as JPll was inserted as anti-pope for the duration. 
    The conclave that elected Benedict XVl would have been a valid conclave, as the seat was literally empty with no true Pope or anti-pope alive. Now , with ANOTHER legitimate Pope (B16), it opened the path to Bergoglio's illegitimate anti-papacy, since Benedict, resigned and hidden away would have  been the recipient of the Grace of the Office, allowing Bergoglio to continue the Apostasy without the Holy Ghost and the Grace of the Papacy getting in the way.. (That's if you are of the belief that Vll can produce a True Pope to begin with.)
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #53 on: October 10, 2019, 05:06:44 PM »
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    • JoseF, your papal timeline could be the correct one...when the Church sorts all this out in a saner day.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #54 on: October 10, 2019, 05:23:29 PM »
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    Now, if these 49% were agreeing with Bergoglio that "Jesus is not God", then they too are obviously already outside the Church and their opinion doesn't matter.  But if it's a disputed question about a proposition that's a couple of steps logically removed from dogma?  What then?  Does the 51% have the authority to oust them from the Church?  What if the 51% are the ones who are heretical?  Now, the Arians could easily have gathered a General Council in which they held majority and booted the non-Arians.  What force would that have had?

    Much of this is just theory, to help lay out principles, but the reality is much more ugly.  Who has the authority to even convene a General Council if there's no universal consensus that one should even be held?
    I agree, the devil has the Church in a pickle.  He has added so much confusion - is Benedict still pope?  If Francis is pope, how can God allow him to speak heresy?  Will any of the Cardinals stand up to Francis, considering he has appointed a majority of them?  Even if a majority rules him a heretic, will the rest go along with it?  Or will they cause a schism?
    .
    I think there is a prophecy which predicts the election of a good pope, who will excommunicate most the Vatican officials, but they will not comply and will start a huge schism.  (Then maybe that's when the moslems sack rome and most everyone is killed...who knows?) 
    .
    As you said:  Only God can solve this.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #55 on: October 10, 2019, 05:25:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: TKGS on October 10, 2019, 02:38:08 PM
    No.  But you need to remember it's as good as the proof of the Resurrection.

    But we also have to consider that Bergoglio has given five or six interviews to this man who has reported Bergoglio's belief in numerous heresies which Bergoglio has never, ever contradicted or corrected if he was reporting incorrectly.  This fact itself tends to the credibility of the witness.

    The Apostles witnessed Our Lord after the resurrection. You seem to be saying that the atheist Scalfari's word is just as good as the Apostles' word. Well, I'll have to disagree with that.

    You are free to obsess on the Pope if you like. But it won't change anything. I cannot cut myself off from the Pope, even though he is a bad Pope. To do so would risk being a schismatic. It's the schismatic attitude of SV's and sedeprivationists that convinces me that it's not the way to go. That's how Martin Luther started out, and I've no interest in being a Protestant.
    As +ABL said, we stay with the Pope out of an attachment to his predecessors.

    Once we cut ourselves off, it's difficult to go back. What Pope will ever be good enough for a sedevacantist or sedeprivationist who is used to scrutinizing everything a bad pope utters and does? How is there to ever be trust again that a Pope will be faithful in his duties? They will look for something to be wrong, even in a good pope, because that's what they are used to doing. It's like a married person who's spouse has betrayed them. They find it difficult to trust again. Unless they have a supernatural attitude and perspective, and an attitude of trusting God, as well as forgiveness, and prayer for a seriously erring Pope.

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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #56 on: October 10, 2019, 05:32:57 PM »
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    But you need to remember it's as good as the proof of the Resurrection.
    It's extreme over-exaggerations like this that give sedevacantists the label of "black-or-white simpletons".  Such thinking is pervasive in that community.  
    .
    I can see why +Williamson (and probably +ABL) didn't want to come out a sede, because they didn't want to be associated with such ridiculous (and unnecessary) extremes.
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #57 on: October 10, 2019, 07:48:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on October 10, 2019, 02:17:30 PM
    And yet… in the feelings of harpy popolators, even "Jesus sinned and made Himself the devil" is insufficient for a "formal case" against Jorge.
    Or worshiping Gaia in the Vatican Gardens.  Or worshiping in a ѕуηαgσgυє.  Or worshiping with Buddhists in Assisi.  There’s nothing the Novus Ordo hierarchy can do to shake the r&r.
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #58 on: October 10, 2019, 07:50:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on October 10, 2019, 05:25:35 PM
    I cannot cut myself off from the Heretic...
    Matthew 15:14
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    Offline poche

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #59 on: October 10, 2019, 11:25:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Alexandria on October 09, 2019, 12:15:29 PM
    https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/special-report-francis-scalfari?mc_cid=7b19a4401a&mc_eid=a060812972

    and here's a follow-up:

    https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/breaking-news-vatican-responds?mc_cid=f181412738&mc_eid=a060812972
    Consider the source;
    Did Pope Francis really really say that Jesus is not God?

    Eugenio Scalfari, who made this sensational claim, cannot be treated as a reliable witness. He is an atheist, a Marxist, not a Christian. Although he has interviewed Pope Francis several times, he has not recorded the sessions or taken notes. He boasts of the ability to reconstruct conversations from memory: a technique that would be inappropriate for any responsible journalist, let alone one of Scalfari’s advanced age (95).

    https://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/the-city-gates.cfm?id=1773
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