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Author Topic: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ  (Read 6299 times)

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Offline forlorn

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Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2019, 07:37:31 AM »
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  • False; the Vatican regularlydenies what this guy says in his column.

    I want to hear it from the horses mouth, not a disreputable atheist trying to project his own opinions to the pope.
    Then why on earth does Francis keep offering interviews to the same guy who has apparently lied and misquoted him dozens of times? 


    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #16 on: October 10, 2019, 08:11:05 AM »
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  • Media wise, it is pretty evident that the "old atheist' ( the term could be applied to Francis as well )is a professional trial balloon floater for Bergoglio.  How many times has this happened before? The Vatican and Francis use this "journalist" as a shield of deniability to float as much heresy as they can get away with, and to gauge  public reaction. if there isn't much, they go ahead with the agenda without scathing Francis. If there is a great outcry, they deny it and retreat for the next neferious anti-Christ moment. I'm totally sick of this manipulation.
    I am not a sede but I am seriously considering the Giuffre theory of a living True Pope; banished so that an anti-pope can falsely take the seat and promote apostasy as there is no Grace of the  office for an invalid pope. So- there is a need for a (banished)true Pope so that the invalid anti-pope, not impacted by the Holy Spirit can spread as much destruction as he can. In other words, Francis couldn't exist in his present apsotasy without Benedict, and  the four Vll anti-Popes prior couldn't exist without a living Cardinal Siri.(Pope Gregory XVll)




    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #17 on: October 10, 2019, 08:15:19 AM »
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  • Then why on earth does Francis keep offering interviews to the same guy who has apparently lied and misquoted him dozens of times?

    That’s a very fair and reasonable objection and observation.

    All I’m saying is that for something with such immense implications, I want to hear it straight from him.

    My question is:

    1) If the pope would make a public profession that our Lord was a mere man from the time of the Incarnation until his death, would this suffice for a formal act of apostasy?

    2) if so, does this circuмvent the need for the Church to declare his deposition?  

    Answer A- It would seem not, since without said declaration, many would not perceive the manifest defection from the faith, and continue to follow authority into apostasy;

    Answer B- It would seem so, because if apostasy is manifest, then the following of authority into it would be culpable (manifest means manifest);

    Answer C- It would seem not, because even such a reprehensible doctrine is not manifest apostasy, but only implies apostasy (ie., Francis is not declaring he has left the faith, but has embraced a doctrine incompatible with the faith, so his apostasy would be implicit, not manifest).

    These are just some of the things I am pondering relative to the news report.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #18 on: October 10, 2019, 08:18:43 AM »
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  • Media wise, it is pretty evident that the "old athiest' ( the term could be applied to Francis as well )is a professional trial balloon floater for Bergoglio.  How many times has this happened before? The Vatican and Francis use this "journalist" as a shield of deniability to float as much heresy as they can get away with, and to gauge  public reaction. if there isn't much, they go ahead with the agenda without scathing Francis. If there is a great outcry, they deny it and retreat for the next neferious anti-Christ moment. 
    Entirely plausible.  But to make any personal conclusions, I still need the smoking gun.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #19 on: October 10, 2019, 08:24:32 AM »
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  • I think that's the point. There will never be a smoking gun to implicate Francis directly. It is advancement of the agenda in the most insidious and indirect way as possible. Quite evil and brilliant. 


    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #20 on: October 10, 2019, 09:07:52 AM »
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  • False; the Vatican regularlydenies what this guy says in his column.

    I want to hear it from the horses mouth, not a disreputable atheist trying to project his own opinions to the pope.
    You are obviously deficient in your reading ability.  This should give pause to anyone considering buying your book.

    The Vatican regularly says that the quotes are not precise.  The Vatican regularly suggests something is deficient about the quotes.  The Vatican does not dispute that what the man writes is true and Bergoglio has never made any public comment denying the veracity of the statements.

    If you heard it from Bergoglio's own mouth, you'd claim that the translation if faulty and we're not taking the cultural understandings of the specific words in proper context.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #21 on: October 10, 2019, 09:11:49 AM »
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  • You are obviously deficient in your reading ability.  This should give pause to anyone considering buying your book.

    The Vatican regularly says that the quotes are not precise.  The Vatican regularly suggests something is deficient about the quotes.  The Vatican does not dispute that what the man writes is true and Bergoglio has never made any public comment denying the veracity of the statements.

    If you heard it from Bergoglio's own mouth, you'd claim that the translation if faulty and we're not taking the cultural understandings of the specific words in proper context.

    Nope: Imprecise = not accurate.

    You are reading more into the Vatican's vague response than is there:

    “Since the Vatican does not precisely deny the claim, it means the claim is true.”

    That is a fallacy.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #22 on: October 10, 2019, 09:12:18 AM »
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  • While it would make his status as an anti-Pope clear, Scalfari is NOT a reliable source.

    Would I rule out that Bergoglio believes this?  Absolutely not.  I'm curious as to why he did not issue an affirmation of Our Lord's Divinity.  Nevertheless, Scalfari's version of events is not smoking gun proof by any means.  This is where some Cardinals would step in and interrogate Bergoglio about whether he actually said this and believes it.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #23 on: October 10, 2019, 09:17:52 AM »
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  • That’s a very fair and reasonable objection and observation.

    All I’m saying is that for something with such immense implications, I want to hear it straight from him.

    My question is:

    1) If the pope would make a public profession that our Lord was a mere man from the time of the Incarnation until his death, would this suffice for a formal act of apostasy?

    2) if so, does this circuмvent the need for the Church to declare his deposition?  

    Answer A- It would seem not, since without said declaration, many would not perceive the manifest defection from the faith, and continue to follow authority into apostasy;

    Answer B- It would seem so, because if apostasy is manifest, then the following of authority into it would be culpable (manifest means manifest);

    Answer C- It would seem not, because even such a reprehensible doctrine is not manifest apostasy, but only implies apostasy (ie., Francis is not declaring he has left the faith, but has embraced a doctrine incompatible with the faith, so his apostasy would be implicit, not manifest).

    These are just some of the things I am pondering relative to the news report.

    If Bergoglio were to come out and confirm this heresy, there would be no need for any declaration by the Church.  This is where S&S are wrong.  When it's obvious and blatant like this, there's no need for any formal declaration, since all Catholics would simply recognize that this man is not one of us.  S&S muddied the waters with their shoddy work.

    What effect would any declaration have?  Since the Church cannot judge the pope or juridically convict him of anything at all, it would only be a clarification regarding the mind of the Church.  It only serves a purpose where perhaps the Church might be divided and not unanimous, or where there was any disagreement over whether a particular proposition was actually heretical.  Such a declaration would have the effect of the Church "making up her mind" on the matter ... and that's it.  In a case like this, where Bergoglio were to deny the Divinity of Christ, he would be non-Catholic and a non-Pope without any declaration.  S&S falsely drew the line at "apostasy" due to bad theology.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #24 on: October 10, 2019, 09:23:23 AM »
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  • Nope: Imprecise = not accurate.

    You are reading more into the Vatican's vague response than is there:

    “Since the Vatican does not precisely deny the claim, it means the claim is true.”

    That is a fallacy.

    Right, it's not logical proof.  Nevertheless, it is highly suspicious.

    How difficult would it have been for Bergoglio to issue a statement:
    "I categorically hold as a matter of Divine and Catholic faith that Jesus was and is indeed both God and man.  Anyone who denies this is not a Catholic and is outside the Church."

    But Bergoglio admits that he likes it when people cause chaos and stir the pot.  He's a wicked man at the very least.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #25 on: October 10, 2019, 09:27:48 AM »
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  • Media wise, it is pretty evident that the "old atheist' ( the term could be applied to Francis as well )is a professional trial balloon floater for Bergoglio.  How many times has this happened before? The Vatican and Francis use this "journalist" as a shield of deniability to float as much heresy as they can get away with, and to gauge  public reaction. if there isn't much, they go ahead with the agenda without scathing Francis. If there is a great outcry, they deny it and retreat for the next neferious anti-Christ moment. I'm totally sick of this manipulation.
    I am not a sede but I am seriously considering the Giuffre theory of a living True Pope; banished so that an anti-pope can falsely take the seat and promote apostasy as there is no Grace of the  office for an invalid pope. So- there is a need for a (banished)true Pope so that the invalid anti-pope, not impacted by the Holy Spirit can spread as much destruction as he can. In other words, Francis couldn't exist in his present apsotasy without Benedict, and  the four Vll anti-Popes prior couldn't exist without a living Cardinal Siri.(Pope Gregory XVll)

    Bergoglio has been turning many people into sedevacantists, including some in the Novus Ordo.  I myself believe that Siri was the legitimate Pope, but I do not believe that he appointed successors.  So I reject the usual accusation against sedevacantism that the See has been vacant for 61 years.  It's only been about 30.


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #26 on: October 10, 2019, 09:36:07 AM »
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  • …All I’m saying is that for something with such immense implications, I want to hear it straight from him.…
    It is already well-docuмented that Bergoglio said Jesus sinned and made himself the devil.
    How many more heresies are needed?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #27 on: October 10, 2019, 09:37:10 AM »
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  • If Bergoglio were to come out and confirm this heresy, there would be no need for any declaration by the Church.  This is where S&S are wrong.  When it's obvious and blatant like this, there's no need for any formal declaration, since all Catholics would simply recognize that this man is not one of us.  S&S muddied the waters with their shoddy work.

    What effect would any declaration have?  Since the Church cannot judge the pope or juridically convict him of anything at all, it would only be a clarification regarding the mind of the Church.  It only serves a purpose where perhaps the Church might be divided and not unanimous, or where there was any disagreement over whether a particular proposition was actually heretical.  Such a declaration would have the effect of the Church "making up her mind" on the matter ... and that's it.  In a case like this, where Bergoglio were to deny the Divinity of Christ, he would be non-Catholic and a non-Pope without any declaration.  S&S falsely drew the line at "apostasy" due to bad theology.

    I think S&S clarified the waters, rather than muddying them:

    Their doctrine is nothing more than a restatement of JST, and they pointed out that the only difference between JST and Bellarmine was whether or not a SECOND DECLARATION by the Church was necessary to declare Christ had deposed the pope (while BOTH AGREED the Church would have to declare the fact of the pope’s heresy).

    So the idea that a pope is deposed ipso facto for heresy without a declaration of the Church is supported by nobody.

    But that novel and unsupported opinion is exactly what you are proposing (and it is obviously ruinous and incompatible for the unity of the Church to have a Protestant private interpretation by private individuals determining subjectively whether or not there is a pope.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #28 on: October 10, 2019, 09:39:44 AM »
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  • It is already well-docuмented that Bergoglio said Jesus sinned and made himself the devil.
    How many more heresies are needed?

    That he is a heretic, I have very little doubt.

    But what follows therefrom is the essence of the dispute/confusion.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
    « Reply #29 on: October 10, 2019, 09:40:23 AM »
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  • A Pope who says "Jesus is not a God at all" is not a Pope at all. It is high treason against Jesus Christ our King to even let such a statement stand.

    But, of course, there is always the plausible deniability. But never the denial of heresy, and the affirmation of dogma. Jesus Christ is Lord and God. That is the Truth and the confession of that Truth is necessary for salvation. Francis will claim he never said it, but will he affirm he believes that Our Lord Jesus Christ is God?

    The Pope is denying Jesus Christ, at least by his silence. Mary our Mother must be weeping. If true, he can surely be declared deposed by the Church.

    Just saw this while typing: https://catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2019/10/10/the-vatican-flatly-rejects-claim-that-pope-denied-divinity-of-jesus/ "“On this [latest editorial by Eugenio Scalfari], as you know, there has already been a clear denial by the Director of the Press Office, Dr [Matteo] Bruni. However, I would like to reiterate that the Holy Father never said what Scalfari wrote that he said. Therefore, both the quoted remarks, and the free reconstruction and interpretation by Dr Scalfari of the colloquies — which go back to more than two years ago — cannot be considered a faithful account of what was said by the Pope. And that will be found rather throughout the Church’s magisterium and Pope Francis’s own, on Jesus: true God and true man.” But no statement from Pope Francis himself, but someone else. As usual.
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.