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Offline ByzCat3000

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Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
« Reply #60 on: August 12, 2019, 08:49:56 PM »
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  • If I may,

    Christ's words Himself from the Gospel of Matthew, chptr XI;

    "Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida: for if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes. [22] But I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment, than for you. [23]And thou Capharnaum, shalt thou be exalted up to heaven? thou shalt go down even unto hell. For if in Sodom had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in thee, perhaps it had remained unto this day. [24] But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. [25] At that time Jesus answered and said: I confess to thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to the little ones."

    Implicit in His argument is the seeming inequity of revelation. Why are those from Trye and Sidon kept ignorant of something that would lead to their salvation. God's ways are inscrutable, we can only guess. Is their ignorance a mercy as was stated before? If God reveals too much to the Sodomites perhaps those souls loose their free will because they can't help but choose the good. That's how free will works. Why is one saved and one is not? St Augustine says you begin to err as soon as you begin to wonder.
    To be fair the text only says they'd have done penance, not necessarily that they'd attain final salvation.  I agree with the point though.

    My belief that God may save some invincibly ignorant souls or even catechumens isn't based on any belief that he is so obligated/

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
    « Reply #61 on: August 13, 2019, 12:45:45 AM »
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  • And I believe in Baptism of Desire.
    Baptism off desire always meant explicit baptism of desire of the catechumen, just like gay meant merry. Today, when Catholics say that they believe in baptism of desire, it means that they believe that anyone can be saved outside of the Church, and that is as dishonest as the sodomites today calling themselves gay. That's a big problem. (P.S. - Implicit Baptism of Desire meant the same as Baptism of desire above, but for not yet catechumens who wanted to be a Catholic, and in both cases they required belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity.)

    The writer should have written that he believes in salvation by implicit faith or by belief in a god that rewards, or salvation for people in the whole of humanity.

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
    « Reply #62 on: August 13, 2019, 08:43:17 AM »
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  • Great points, LT.  BOD today is a catch-all for all kinds of beliefs.  It's like when people say they're "conservative".  What does that mean exactly?  Depends on the person.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
    « Reply #63 on: August 13, 2019, 08:54:39 AM »
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  • I'm gonna add my voice to Ladislaus' question.  And I believe in Baptism of Desire.

    If an infant dies in infancy, without baptism, they had no chance of salvation, yet they go to Limbo.

    So why is it UNJUST for God to similarly sentence an adult who has never heard the gospel or committed a mortal sin to Limbo?

    I can see why it would be unjust if God sentenced them to eternal torment.  I think that would be unjust, as far as I can understand.  But how is anyone owed the beatific vision, or even a chance at it?  Isn't saying that anyone is owed such a thing pelagian?

    Yes, ByzCat, that's been my issue all along.  So many of the BoD proponents are actually secret Pelagians or semi-Pelagians.  THAT is what I have an issue with.  I have NO problem with someone who JUST believes in BoD.  After all, St. Thomas did, St. Alphonsus, and St. Robert Bellarmine did ... all Doctors of the Church.  What I have a problem with is the implicit Pelagianism and the implicit anti-Tridentine ecclesiology (or, Vatican II ecclesiology) that the VAST MAJORITY of BoD proponents hold.  What the BoDers tend to do is to hide behind pro-BoD quotes from these Doctors to pretend that it actually supports their Pelagianism and their ecclesiology ... but it most certainly does not.  That's dishonest.

    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/'believers'-in-baptism-of-desire-and-being-'gay'/msg663282/?topicseen#msg663282

     

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