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Traditional Catholic Faith => General Discussion => Topic started by: SeanJohnson on August 10, 2019, 07:12:31 AM

Title: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 10, 2019, 07:12:31 AM
https://novusordowatch.org/2019/04/father-leonard-feeney-justification-salvation/ (https://novusordowatch.org/2019/04/father-leonard-feeney-justification-salvation/)

Justification and Salvation: What did Fr. Leonard Feeney teach? (https://novusordowatch.org/2019/04/father-leonard-feeney-justification-salvation/)
April 24, 2019

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Bizarre theology alert…

Justification and Salvation:
What did Fr. Leonard Feeney teach?

(https://novusordowatch.org/wp-content/uploads/leonard-feeney-GettyImages-92937302.jpg)
Original caption: “UNITED STATES – CIRCA 1949: Rev. Leonard Feeney of the Jesuit order engaging in controversy with his superiors regarding teaching of Catholic doctrine.” (Photo by Alfred Eisenstaedt/The LIFE Picture Collection/Getty Images)

On April 12, Michael Voris of Church Militant stunned his fan base as he suddenly began promoting (https://www.churchmilitant.com/video/episode/vortex-heretic-or-loyal-son) the person and theology of the late Fr. Leonard Feeney, S.J. (1897-1978) and the St. Benedict Center he helped shape (at least the one in New Hampshire — there is another one in Massachusetts). Two more similar articles and Vortex episodes followed, as well as a full interview with the prior of the NH St. Benedict Center and a direct call to give financial support to the group, which is not in “full communion” with the Novus Ordo diocese. On April 23, however, Church Militant released an article against Feeneyism, probably confusing its readership even more. Written by Jim Russell, it is entitled “Fr. Feeney’s Strange Doctrine” (https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/fr.-feeneys-strange-doctrine) and expresses criticism of the theological position of today’s St. Benedict Center as well.
The case of Leonard Feeney is a truly tragic one in Church history, but it exemplifies how heresies and false teachings often arise as an excessive or false reaction to another heresy or error they are trying to combat. There is no question that the Church’s dogma of No Salvation Outside the Church (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, or EENS; see Denz. 430 (http://denzinger.patristica.net/denzinger/#n400)) was more and more being effectively undermined and attacked in the 1940s and ’50s, not simply by people outside the Church but also by many within. In his 1950 landmark encyclical against the renascent Modernism of his day, Pope Pius XII warned: “Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation” (Encyclical Humani Generis (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12human.htm), n. 27). It was this trend that Feeney sought to remedy, but he did so by distorting the Church’s teaching in the opposite direction. In 1947, he began preaching bizarre ideas about justification, salvation, and the necessity of the Church and thus got himself in trouble with the authorities of his order (Jesuits) as well as the diocese in which he was functioning (Archdiocese of Boston).
Another Catholic priest who was conscious of the dire need to counteract the dangerous subversion of EENS but who did so using sound Catholic theology was Mgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton (https://novusordowatch.org/2017/07/vatican2-diaries-fenton/), professor of fundamental dogmatic theology at the Catholic University of America and editor of the American Ecclesiastical Review (1943-63). A former student of the legendary Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P., Fenton was an expert in the field of ecclesiology. Pope Pius XII recognized Fenton’s theological achievements and bestowed upon him the medal Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_Ecclesia_et_Pontifice) in 1954. In 1958, Fenton published the magnificent work The Catholic Church and Salvation in the Light of Recent Pronouncements by the Holy See (https://www.daughtersofmarypress.com/store/item_view.php?id=1000068&item=the-catholic-church-and-salvation). An assortment of his numerous articles on the Church was recently published as The Church of Christ: A Collection of Essays by Monsignor Joseph C. Fenton (https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1944418083/interregnumnow-20).
Alas, despite correction from the Holy Office (Decree Suprema Haec Sacra (https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=1467) of Aug. 8, 1949), Feeney persisted in his errors, and in 1953 he was excommunicated by Pope Pius XII ferendae sententiae for grave disobedience, as he obstinately refused to obey the order to appear at the Vatican to explain his doctrine, even under pain of excommunication. (The false pope Paul VI (https://novusordowatch.org/paul-vi/) eventually rescinded the excommunication, at least putatively.)
But just what strange doctrines did Fr. Feeney teach?
To answer this question, we present an article written by Fr. Benedict Hughes, CMRI (https://novusordowatch.org/2014/12/devotion-fatima-message/), which was published in The Reign of Mary (http://www.cmri.org/reign_of_mary.shtml) two years ago. In it, Fr. Benedict presents direct quotations from Feeney’s own 1952 book The Bread of Life and critiques it in light of genuine Catholic doctrine: “My purpose will be to present the teachings of Father Feeney and allow the reader to see how these contradict Church teaching”, the author states.
Other resources to help provide clarity with regard to EENS include the new book Contra Crawford (https://novusordowatch.org/2018/11/contra-crawford-baptism-of-desire-blood/), Bp. Donald Sanborn’s Anti-Feeneyite Catechism (http://mostholytrinityseminary.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Combined-Feeney-articles-red.pdf), our TRADCAST 004 (https://novusordowatch.org/2015/04/tradcast-004-is-here/), and the web site baptismofdesire.com (http://baptismofdesire.com/). A simple slogan by which to remember the orthodox Catholic attitude in the EENS debate would be: “Fenton, not Feeney.”
For this post, we will not enable the combox because this topic always triggers endless heated discussion that would tie us up in moderating user contributions all day long.


(https://novusordowatch.org/wp-content/uploads/reign-of-mary-164-summer-2017.jpg)

Justification and Salvation: What did Fr. Leonard Feeney teach?
By Rev. Father Benedict Hughes, CMRI
First published in The Reign of Mary, no. 164 (https://www.cmri.org/rm164.shtml) (Summer 2017)
Reprinted here with permission. All formatting as in original.
Cornelius was a good man. Devout and God-fearing, he was known for his almsgiving. In fact, Holy Scripture tells us that he prayed to God “continually”—no small praise coming, as it does, from the Holy Ghost Himself. There was, however, one major problem with Cornelius—he was a pagan.
The fascinating story of this Roman centurion is narrated in the 10th chapter of the Acts of the Apostles. One day, while Cornelius was at prayer, an angel appeared to him and instructed him to send messengers to Joppa, a city by the sea, to ask Saint Peter to come to him. Three messengers were dispatched, and they arrived in Joppa the next day. Meanwhile, Saint Peter was instructed by the Holy Ghost to accompany these men back to their city. So the following day he departed with them for Caesarea.
Peter arrived with his companions to find a houseful, for Cornelius, in his enthusiasm, had invited his friends and relatives. After hearing Cornelius tell of the message of the angel who had instructed him to send for Peter, the latter replied, “Now I really understand that God is not a respecter of persons, but in every nation he who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him” (Acts, 10:34-5). He then went on to explain that Jesus is truly the Messias predicted by the prophets. And, “while Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came upon all who were listening to this message” (Acts, 10:44). Peter and his companions were amazed that the Holy Ghost had come upon these Gentiles, “for they heard them speaking in tongues and magnifying God. Then Peter answered, ‘Can anyone refuse the water to baptize these, seeing that they have received the Holy Spirit just as we did?’” (Acts, 10: 46-7). He then ordered them to be baptized.
This marvelous story shows the wonderful effects of cooperation with grace. It is particularly of interest to see that the Holy Ghost came upon these souls before they were baptized. This fact brings up an interesting question: What would have become of their souls, had they died before they were baptized? In other words, how do we describe the state of their souls during the interval when they listened to and accepted Peter’s teaching, but had not yet been baptized? To answer this question, we need first to understand what is meant by justification, and what the Church teaches in this regard.
What is Justification?
In the Gospel we read the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican (Luke, 18:9-14). Our Lord tells us that this man (the publican) went away from the temple justified, rather than the other. Of course, there are many other places in Scripture where the word justification, or its derivatives, are used. So what exactly does it mean? Simply put, one who is in the state of sanctifying grace is in the state of justification. In other words, his soul is in a state in which it is pleasing to God, who looks upon that soul and sees therein the life of grace, which is a sharing in His own life. He cannot but be pleased at this. As the catechism puts it, “by sanctifying grace we become holy and pleasing to God.”
In the 16th century, the Council of Trent was convoked to respond to the various erroneous teachings of Martin Luther, which had been leading so many souls out of the Church. Primary among his heretical notions was the idea that justification is obtained by faith alone, without any need for good works. The Catholic Church condemned this teaching and explained that justification requires both faith and good works. Moreover, it is a gratuitous gift of God that we cannot merit. It is only by the death of Christ on the cross that we are able to obtain this precious gift of grace, for which we ought always to joyfully render “thanks to the Father, who has made us worthy to share the lot of the saints in light. He has rescued us from the power of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have our redemption, the remission of our sins” (Col, 1:12-14).
Without this state of justification, of sanctifying grace, it is impossible to attain salvation. Simply put, at the moment of death, a soul in the state of sanctifying grace is saved, but one who dies deprived of the precious gift of God’s grace is lost. Of course, it is necessary that one also be baptized, but what if a person dies in the state of grace without having received this sacrament? The Church teaches that such a person can be incorporated into the Church and thus can be saved through what is called “Baptism of Desire.” This teaching of the Church, however, has been bitterly opposed by Father Leonard Feeney and his followers. In this article, I do not intend to repeat the same material that has already been covered so many times in various articles, which cite the teachings of the Church and theologians. My purpose will be to present the teachings of Father Feeney and allow the reader to see how these contradict Church teaching.
What Did Father Feeney Teach?
In order to fairly and accurately represent the teachings of Father Leonard Feeney, I decided to read the book which he published in 1952 titled The Bread of Life. In the introduction he states: “I have been persuaded by the members of my Order, The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, to publish some of the talks I have been giving on Thursday evenings at Saint Benedict Center, Cambridge, Massachusetts, during the past ten years.” So we see that this book is a compilation of lectures he had given in the 1940s and early 1950s. Throughout the remainder of this article I will be quoting from the 1974 edition of this book.
In the book Father Feeney correctly explains what is meant by justification. He also correctly makes the distinction between justification and salvation: “Justification is of our entrance into the state of sanctifying grace. Salvation is our reward for persevering in grace” (pp. 39-40). On the other hand, he claims that “it is a lack of knowledge of this most important and basic distinction (between justification and salvation)… that has led the Liberal theologians of our day to keep on saying that all you need to do to be saved is to be justified, and that you can be justified without the waters of Redemption….” (pp. 14-15).
So what about a person, like Cornelius before his baptism, who receives the grace of God into his soul through supernatural faith and charity, but who dies before he can be baptized? Father Feeney teaches that he cannot be saved. In a question and answer format, he states as follows:
Quote
Quote “Question: Can Baptism of Desire save you?
Answer: Never.
Question: Could Baptism of Desire save you if you really believed it could?
Answer: It could not.
Question: Could it possibly suffice for you to pass into a state of justification?
Answer: It could.
Question: If you got into the state of justification with the aid of Baptism of Desire, and then failed to receive Baptism of Water, could you be saved?
Answer: Never (p. 121).

In another place he is even more emphatic: “Unbaptized adults who die go to Hell” (p. 128).
So there you have it. No baptism with water—no salvation, even though the departed was in the state of justification at his death. That would mean that there are souls in hell who are in the state of sanctifying grace. This is not only erroneous, it is blasphemous. To say that a person who loves God and is in the state of sanctifying grace would be damned to hell for all eternity would, in my opinion be a blasphemy. For it would join God (who lives in the soul that is in the state of grace) with the devil in hell. That cannot be.
Imagining a conversation with a theologian who believes in Baptism of Desire, Father Feeney instructs his adherents as follows: If the theologian asks, “‘If you die in the state of justification, without yet being baptized, are you not saved?’ You must answer him, ‘No, you are not.’ … ‘And if he persists in saying, ‘Well, where does one go who dies in the state of justification which has been achieved without Baptism?’—insist that he does not go to Heaven” (p. 135).
In another place he repeats this teaching, once again in a question and answer format:
“Question: Are the souls of those who die in the state of justification saved, if they have not received Baptism of Water? Answer: No. They are not saved” (p. 137).
As you can see, this would mean that there is no hope for one who has not been baptized. Father Feeney even says, “When you go to Heaven, most of the Americans you meet will be under seven years of age!” (p. 23). Think about that for a minute!
It’s Just Too Bad!
Father Feeney realizes that his teaching is harsh, to the point of being cruel: “If I seem to be cruel in this matter…” (p. 136). In another place he states that “the Holy Spirit is not interested in our love until the waters of regeneration have flowed on us” (p. 138).
But what if one is unable to receive the sacrament of baptism, through no fault of his own? Father Feeney would say that it is just too bad: “If you do not receive Baptism of Water, you cannot be saved, whether you were guilty or not guilty of not having received it” (p. 126). Again, he says, “And now let me go back to what is called necessity of means in a sacramental requirement. Necessity of means means, if you have not got the requirement, it is just too bad for you, whether you are to blame or whether you are not to blame. If you are not to blame, it is just too bad” (p. 128).
So it is just too bad! If you have not been baptized with water, you are lost—period. What does this say of our understanding of God’s mercy? In fact, it seems rather to be similar to the teachings of John Calvin, John Knox and Cornelius Jansen on predestination—that God created some souls to damn them, and there is nothing they can do about it. Fr. Feeney even says, “I myself would say, my dear children, that a catechumen who dies before Baptism, is punished” (p. 125). Again, “it is just too bad”! How does this square with that doctrine set forth in Scripture, that God desires the salvation of all men: “Who wishes all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (I Tim., 2:4)?
Disparaging the Pope
One important point of doctrine—which Father Feeney taught correctly—is the absolute necessity of submission to the successor of Saint Peter, the Vicar of Christ on earth. To quote again from his book: “No one can possibly enter the Kingdom of Heaven without personal submission to our Holy Father the Pope” (p. 186). The irony, however, is that Father Feeney himself did not submit to the true Pope. For one thing, he published his book without an imprimatur, in violation of Canon law, which was promulgated by the Pope. He continued to operate apart, and in defiance of, the local magisterium, for which he was finally excommunicated by the Holy Office on February 13, 1953.
He also spoke in a disparaging way about papal teaching. For instance, he refers to the teaching of Pope Pius IX as follows: “And this false reasoning is built up from an interpretation of a couple of sentences of Pope Pius IX… two carelessly worded sentences in an encyclical of Pope Pius IX, on which the Liberals base their teaching…” (p. 53). In this statement he is referring to the allocution Singulari Quadam (https://novusordowatch.org/pius9-singulari-quadam/) (12/9/1854; Denzinger #1647 (http://denzinger.patristica.net/denzinger/#n1600)) and to the encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9quanto.htm)(8/10/1863; Denzinger #1677 (http://denzinger.patristica.net/denzinger/#n1600)). We will not reproduce the actual quotes here, which can be read at www.baptismofdesire.com (http://www.baptismofdesire.com/). The point to be made is the hubris and condescension with which Father Feeney refers to papal teaching—an attitude that is shocking and scandalous to any serious-minded Catholic.
He also ignores the fact that the doctrine of Baptism of Desire has been clearly taught by the Church for many centuries. The Council of Trent taught, in referring to the translation of the sinner from the state of sin into the state of grace: “This translation however cannot, since the promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire….” (Session VI, Chapter 4). This same teaching has consistently been taught by the Church and her theologians, both before and after the Council of Trent.
Yet, Father Feeney claims that the teaching of Baptism of Desire originated with the Baltimore Catechism in the 19th century: “The crucial point, then at which heresy entered the Catholic Church in the United States and backwashed to the dying Faith of Europe and the rest of the world, was through the teaching of the doctrine known as ‘Baptism of Desire’ in the Baltimore Catechism” (p. 118). As you can see, he completely ignores what was taught by Popes and theologians long before there ever was a Baltimore Catechism. For instance, Saint Alphonsus Maria de Liguori, who lived in the 18th century, taught as follows:
Quote
Quote “Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment… Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam de presbytero non baptizato and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved ‘without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it’” (Moral Theology, Book 6, Section II, p. 310, no. 96).

This is just one example of pre-19th century teaching, which completely destroys Father Feeney’s claim that the teaching of the Baltimore Catechism “backwashed” to Europe and the rest of the world. There was no Baltimore Catechism when Saint Alphonsus wrote these words.
There are other strange things to be found in The Bread of Life. For example, Fr. Feeney says the following concerning infants who die after baptism: “They go to the Beatific Vision. They are of the kingdom of Mary; but they are not the children of Mary. Mary is their Queen, but not their Mother.” (p. 98). It is indeed a strange notion that Mary is not the Mother of infants who die in the grace of God. But the following notion is even more bizarre: “If a child dies after having received Baptism, he dies as the son of God, but not yet as the child of Mary. When he gets his body back, at the end of the world, he has to drink of the Chalice in the Kingdom of his Father in order to be incorporated in flesh and blood with Jesus—and so become Mary’s child. There is no other way!” (p. 98). So does this mean that it is possible to receive the Holy Eucharist in heaven? What else could he mean by “drink the Chalice”?
Conclusion
In this article I have quoted from Fr. Feeney’s own book, in order to be able to explain his teaching in his own words. I certainly do not advocate anyone reading the book by Father Feeney, filled as it is with error and having been published contrary to the requirements of Canon law. I am merely quoting from it in order to demonstrate clearly what Father Feeney taught—to get it straight from the horse’s mouth, as the saying goes.
The story of Father Leonard Feeney is indeed a tragic one. Born in Lynn, Massachusetts in 1897, he entered the Jesuit novitiate in 1914 and was ordained in 1928. After holding several different teaching positions, he became chaplain of the Saint Benedict Center at Harvard Square in 1945. Due to concerns over his teachings, he was ordered by his Jesuit superiors to go to College of the Holy Cross in Worcester. At first he complied with this order and went to Holy Cross, but later, under the influence of two laymen affiliated with Saint Benedict Center, he returned there, in defiance of his superior’s orders.
Eventually, he was summoned to Rome but refused to go. His refusal ultimately led to his excommunication by the Holy Office in 1953. Fr. Feeney was defiant, claiming that the excommunication against him was not valid. He moved his Saint Benedict Center to Still River, Massachusetts, and operated there without subjecting himself to the legitimate authority of the bishop of Worcester. His group purchased a large commune and begin to live a life separated from other Catholics and from the hierarchy of the Church. This group began to engage in bizarre practices such as breaking up families (taking the children from their parents, whom they were not allowed to see except on certain feast days) and brutal punishments imposed on the children for minor infractions.
Fr. Feeney eventually submitted to the local bishop in 1972 and sought to have his excommunication lifted. Although this was well after Vatican II, and therefore the legitimacy of the local bishop is questionable, we can nevertheless hope that his submission was sincere. Father Feeney died in 1978, but, sadly, his followers have continued to spread his errors far and wide. It is high time that they humbly submit to the teachings of Holy Mother Church, the “pillar and ground of truth” [1 Tim 3:15], for indeed, one who rejects the Church Christ founded by rejecting her teachings, will certainly not be able to save his soul.
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: MiserereMei on August 10, 2019, 09:48:08 AM
Thank you so much for this posting. :applause:
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Last Tradhican on August 10, 2019, 09:49:27 AM
https://novusordowatch.org/2019/04/father-leonard-feeney-justification-salvation/ (https://novusordowatch.org/2019/04/father-leonard-feeney-justification-salvation/)
Novus Ordo Watch, the blind leading the blind.
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: forlorn on August 10, 2019, 09:53:01 AM
How exactly do you define implicit baptism of desire, Seán?
Also another thing:
Quote
If you are not to blame, it is just too bad” (p. 128).
So it is just too bad! If you have not been baptized with water, you are lost—period. What does this say of our understanding of God’s mercy? In fact, it seems rather to be similar to the teachings of John Calvin, John Knox and Cornelius Jansen on predestination—that God created some souls to damn them, and there is nothing they can do about it.
This is a rather stupid position to hold, one we called you out for earlier in the week. If God is "creating souls just to damn them" by creating the invincibly ignorant, then how is He not doing so when he creates a baby who gets aborted or otherwise dies before/without baptism? There is no way around that. If believing that those who die invincibly ignorant cannot achieve the beatific vision is Calvinist or Jansenistic, then believing that unbaptised babies can't achieve it either would also be. It's hypocritical and contradictory to assert otherwise. 
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: trad123 on August 10, 2019, 10:03:11 AM

Quote
This marvelous story shows the wonderful effects of cooperation with grace. It is particularly of interest to see that the Holy Ghost came upon these souls before they were baptized. This fact brings up an interesting question: What would have become of their souls, had they died before they were baptized? In other words, how do we describe the state of their souls during the interval when they listened to and accepted Peter’s teaching, but had not yet been baptized?

A Practical Commentary On Holy Scripture by Frederick Justus Knecht D.D.

CHAPTER XCII

THE CONVERSION OF CORNELIUS

https://www.ecatholic2000.com/knecht/untitled-189.shtml#_Toc385594913 (https://www.ecatholic2000.com/knecht/untitled-189.shtml#_Toc385594913)


Quote
The graces of Redemption can be received only through the Church. When our Lord Jesus revealed Himself to Saul, He might Himself have imparted to him all necessary instruction, and the grace of regeneration. He did not, however, do so, but sent to him the priest Ananias to teach him and baptize him. Our Blessed Lord acted in the same way regarding the conversion of Cornelius. He neither taught him directly Himself, nor by the mouth of an angel, but commanded him to send for Peter, and hear his words. Nor did the wonderful outpouring of the Holy Ghost on Cornelius and his companions make Baptism superfluous; for each one had to be baptized, and be thus received into the Church by her ministers. It is only by the exercise of the threefold—teaching, pastoral, and priestly—office of the Church, that men can be united and reconciled to our Lord Jesus Christ. He who despises and neglects the means of grace entrusted to the Church cannot receive grace; and he who says that the priesthood is unnecessary, falls into a most fatal error. St. Paul writes thus (1 Cor. 4:1): “Let a man so account of us as the ministers of God, and the dispensers of the mysteries of God.”

Baptism is the first and most necessary of the Sacraments. The Holy Ghost descended visibly on Corneiius and his companions, and imparted to them the gift of tongues, in order to convince the Jєωιѕн Christians that the Gentiles need not first become Jєωs before they could receive the gifts of the Holy Ghost. This outpouring of the Holy Ghost prepared them for a worthy reception of holy Baptism, but it was only by their Baptism that they received the grace of regeneration, and became members of the Body of Christ, that is, His Church.

The good works of sinners. Cornelius was convinced of the nothingness of the pagan gods, and believed in One Invisible God, the Creator of heaven and earth. He also observed the moral law which God has written in the hearts of men, and which He revealed in the ten Commandments. He constantly prayed to God for guidance and knowledge of the truth; and he supplemented his prayers by works of mercy and almsgiving. Now, these good works of prayer and almsgiving were indeed supernatural good works, but still could not directly merit for Cornelius everlasting happiness, for only those good works which are performed in a state of sanctifying grace have meritorious value for heaven. Because Cornelius corresponded with divine grace, he received the further gift of faith, and by Baptism received sanctifying grace.

The following virtues are to be found in Cornelius:

1. He was religious, for he prayed continually, and honoured God, and according to his lights strove after religious truth.
2. He was conscientious, for, as far as his conscience taught him, he observed God’s commandments, obeyed the will of God, and kept himself from sin.
3. He was charitable and compassionate, working for the good of his neighbour. He practised not only the corporal but also the spiritual works of mercy, by inviting his friends to hear the words of Peter, and thus leading them to the true faith.
4. He was obedient to God’s command to send for Peter, and he thereby obtained salvation.
5. He was humble. If he had said to himself: “What can an uneducated fisherman like Peter do for me, a cultivated Roman?” he would not have obtained the gift of faith in Jesus Christ.
6. He believed the word of God, as it was announced to him by Peter, and therefore he received the gift of faith from the Holy Ghost, and the grace of Baptism.

Indifferentism in matters of faith. The sentence in Peter’s discourse: “In every nation he that feareth God and worketh justice is acceptable to Him”, has been interpreted by people either indifferent about, or weak in faith, to mean: “It is all the same what people believe, or what religious creed they profess, if only they live good lives.” Now is this principle, that religion and faith are matters of indifference, correct? No! it is utterly false and un-Christian, and that for these reasons: 1. Peter did not say: “Faith does not signify”; for he was, on the contrary, most anxious to convert Cornelius to the true faith; but his words meant rather that nationality does not signify—it does not matter what nation a man belongs to, for all nations are called to believe in Jesus Christ, and all persons, to whatever nation they may belong, are acceptable to Him, if, as Cornelius did, they keep the commandments and strive after a knowledge of the truth. Such men, being acceptable to God, are called by Him to believe the true faith, and thereby obtain salvation. 2. Peter, at the end of his discourse, expressly teaches that no one can obtain forgiveness of sins but through faith in Jesus (compare with this his words in chapter LXXXV: “There is no other Name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved”; Acts 4:12). 3. If no account was to be made of holding the true faith, St. Peter need not have preached to Cornelius, and need not have baptized him. 4. If it be a matter of indifference what faith a man holds, then the whole revelation of God would have been unnecessary, and it would have been quite superfluous for our Lord Jesus Christ to have come into the world, to have taught the true faith, and founded His Church. 5. The principle that it does not signify what a man believes is in direct opposition to the teaching of the Gospels, in which we find our Blessed Lord so often demanding faith in Himself and His doctrine (see, for example, chapter XV). There is only one true God, one Saviour, and one true faith, which Jesus Christ taught and bequeathed to the Church that He founded. Any indifference in matters of faith, or any admiration of it in others must come from a want of firm religious convictions, and is a grievous sin against faith.

Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Augustinus21 on August 10, 2019, 10:08:51 AM
How exactly do you define implicit baptism of desire, Seán?
Also another thing:This is a rather stupid position to hold, one we called you out for earlier in the week. If God is "creating souls just to damn them" by creating the invincibly ignorant, then how is He not doing so when he creates a baby who gets aborted or otherwise dies before/without baptism? There is no way around that. If believing that those who die invincibly ignorant cannot achieve the beatific vision is Calvinist or Jansenistic, then believing that unbaptised babies can't achieve it either would also be. It's hypocritical and contradictory to assert otherwise.
Not Sean, but this is what I would say.( following St. Thomas in the Virtues)
If a non-Catholic lives a naturally virtuous life ( falling into no mortal sin) and through no fault of his own he has not joined the Church, God will give him a chance ( through an angel or a preacher) to hear and accept the Faith before death.  A man would be joined to the soul of the Church in reality and the Body of the Church in desire.
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: forlorn on August 10, 2019, 10:12:01 AM
Not Sean, but this is what I would say.( following St. Thomas in the Virtues)
If a non-Catholic lives a naturally virtuous life ( falling into no mortal sin) and through no fault of his own he has not joined the Church, God will give him a chance ( through an angel or a preacher) to hear and accept the Faith before death.  A man would be joined to the soul of the Church in reality and the Body of the Church in desire.
If he hears and accepts the faith, why would he not be baptised? 
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 10, 2019, 10:32:45 AM
Joyous bump!!
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Augustinus21 on August 10, 2019, 10:36:49 AM
If he hears and accepts the faith, why would he not be baptised?
I’m talking about someone who never gets a chance to hear the Faith in their lifetime.
Think about it like this. There were millions of native peoples who lived in the Americas before the Faith was ever brought over here. Surely some of them lived naturally virtuous lives and never heard the Gospel Or received the Faith. It would be ridiculous to assume they all went to Hell without exception. Fr. Michael Muller explains the position well
https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2012/12/04/fr-michael-muller-c-s-s-r-taught-the-doctrine-of-baptism-of-desire/ (https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2012/12/04/fr-michael-muller-c-s-s-r-taught-the-doctrine-of-baptism-of-desire/)
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: trad123 on August 10, 2019, 10:41:53 AM
I’m talking about someone who never gets a chance to hear the Faith in their lifetime.
Think about it like this. There were millions of native peoples who lived in the Americas before the Faith was ever brought over here. Surely some of them lived naturally virtuous lives and never heard the Gospel Or received the Faith. It would be ridiculous to assume they all went to Hell without exception. Fr. Michael Muller explains the position well
https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2012/12/04/fr-michael-muller-c-s-s-r-taught-the-doctrine-of-baptism-of-desire/ (https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2012/12/04/fr-michael-muller-c-s-s-r-taught-the-doctrine-of-baptism-of-desire/)


Are you sure you read that?


Quote
Fr. Michael Müller also wrote a catechism titled “Familiar Explanation of Christian Doctrine.” He writes:

Q. What are we to think of the salvation of those who are out of the pale of the Church without any fault of theirs, and who never had any opportunity of knowing better?

A. Their inculpable ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance.

Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Augustinus21 on August 10, 2019, 10:45:32 AM

Are you sure you read that?
Yes, that is my position 
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: trad123 on August 10, 2019, 10:47:41 AM
Yes, that is my position

Read again:


Quote
Q. What do you mean by this?

A. I mean that God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten, at the hour of death, one who is not yet a Catholic, so that he may see the truth of the Catholic faith, be truly sorry for his sins, and sincerely desire to die a good Catholic.

Q. What do we say of those who receive such an extraordinary grace, and die in this manner?

A. We say of them that they die united, at least, to the soul of the Catholic Church, and are saved.

Q. What, then, awaits all those who are out of the Catholic Church, and die without having received such an extraordinary grace at the hour of death?

A. Eternal damnation.

Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: trad123 on August 10, 2019, 10:52:10 AM
Let me make another part bold to clarify this:


Quote
I’m talking about someone who never gets a chance to hear the Faith in their lifetime.

Think about it like this. There were millions of native peoples who lived in the Americas before the Faith was ever brought over here. Surely some of them lived naturally virtuous lives and never heard the Gospel Or received the Faith. It would be ridiculous to assume they all went to Hell without exception. Fr. Michael Muller explains the position well

https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2012/12/04/fr-michael-muller-c-s-s-r-taught-the-doctrine-of-baptism-of-desire/ (https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2012/12/04/fr-michael-muller-c-s-s-r-taught-the-doctrine-of-baptism-of-desire/)


Never means never. As in no occasion whatsoever.

That is not the same thing as saying:


Quote
A. I mean that God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten, at the hour of death, one who is not yet a Catholic, so that he may see the truth of the Catholic faith, be truly sorry for his sins, and sincerely desire to die a good Catholic.

Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Augustinus21 on August 10, 2019, 10:57:44 AM
Let me make another part bold to clarify this:



Never means never. As in no occasion whatsoever.

That is not the same thing as saying:
Yes it does. Muller assumes that the person in question is a non-Catholic through no fault of his own. One who hears the Faith and rejects it wouldn’t fall under this.
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: forlorn on August 10, 2019, 11:02:17 AM
I’m talking about someone who never gets a chance to hear the Faith in their lifetime.
Think about it like this. There were millions of native peoples who lived in the Americas before the Faith was ever brought over here. Surely some of them lived naturally virtuous lives and never heard the Gospel Or received the Faith. It would be ridiculous to assume they all went to Hell without exception. Fr. Michael Muller explains the position well
https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2012/12/04/fr-michael-muller-c-s-s-r-taught-the-doctrine-of-baptism-of-desire/ (https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2012/12/04/fr-michael-muller-c-s-s-r-taught-the-doctrine-of-baptism-of-desire/)
You said an angel or preacher would be sent to them by God. Why would the angel or the preacher not baptise them? 
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: trad123 on August 10, 2019, 11:03:07 AM
I'm flabbergasted that you're not seeing the distinction.

There is a transition here from being a non-Catholic to adhering to the Catholic faith, at the hour of death.
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: forlorn on August 10, 2019, 11:04:03 AM
If God is "creating souls just to damn them" by creating the invincibly ignorant, then how is He not doing so when he creates a baby who gets aborted or otherwise dies before/without baptism? There is no way around that. If believing that those who die invincibly ignorant cannot achieve the beatific vision is Calvinist or Jansenistic, then believing that unbaptised babies can't achieve it either would also be. It's hypocritical and contradictory to assert otherwise.
Seán is still ignoring this point, as he has done in multiple threads over the course of the last week.
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Augustinus21 on August 10, 2019, 11:13:22 AM
You said an angel or preacher would be sent to them by God. Why would the angel or the preacher not baptise them?
An angel can not baptise. 
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: forlorn on August 10, 2019, 11:14:22 AM
An angel can not baptise.
Why not? 
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Augustinus21 on August 10, 2019, 11:14:40 AM
This is Fr. Muller’s rebuke of Feeneyite pride

Q. Is it then right for us to say that one who was not received into the Church before his death, is damned?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. Because we cannot know for certain what takes place between God and the soul at the awful moment of death.
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Augustinus21 on August 10, 2019, 11:15:10 AM
Why not?
An angel is immaterial 
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: forlorn on August 10, 2019, 11:17:01 AM
This is Fr. Muller’s rebuke of Feeneyite pride

Q. Is it then right for us to say that one who was not received into the Church before his death, is damned?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. Because we cannot know for certain what takes place between God and the soul at the awful moment of death.


Quote
"Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned."
Pope St. Pius X

The distinction you're missing is that we should not comment on whether or not INDIVIDUALS are damned, but Fr. Feeney didn't do that. He never said "Abdul Ibn Whatever specifically is damned", he said "Non-Catholics are damned." The former is wrong(but Fr. Feeney never did it), the latter we are REQUIRED to do by order of Pope St. Pius X.
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: forlorn on August 10, 2019, 11:19:37 AM
An angel is immaterial
All it has to be able to do is speak and pour some water on the convert's head. 
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Augustinus21 on August 10, 2019, 11:23:01 AM
The distinction you're missing is that we should not comment on whether or not INDIVIDUALS are damned, but Fr. Feeney didn't do that. He never said "Abdul Ibn Whatever specifically is damned", he said "Non-Catholics are damned." The former is wrong(but Fr. Feeney never did it), the latter we are REQUIRED to do by order of Pope St. Pius X.
From the Catechism of St. Pius X
29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: forlorn on August 10, 2019, 11:24:32 AM
From the Catechism of St. Pius X
29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation

What's that got to do with what I said? You accused Fr. Feeney of arrogance for saying infidels are damned, I showed you proof that we are in fact REQUIRED to testify that infidels are damned. 
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Augustinus21 on August 10, 2019, 11:29:56 AM
All it has to be able to do is speak and pour some water on the convert's head.
An angel can’t pour water. If this were possible we would’ve seen it
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: forlorn on August 10, 2019, 11:30:29 AM
An angel can’t pour water. If this were possible we would’ve seen it
Have you seen an angel convert someone either? I haven't. 
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: trad123 on August 10, 2019, 11:33:11 AM
The distinction you're missing is that we should not comment on whether or not INDIVIDUALS are damned, but Fr. Feeney didn't do that. He never said "Abdul Ibn Whatever specifically is damned", he said "Non-Catholics are damned." The former is wrong(but Fr. Feeney never did it), the latter we are REQUIRED to do by order of Pope St. Pius X.

I was about to post that.

It's not registering to him that there is a change from adhering to a non-Catholic sect to now adhering to the Catholic faith.

Quote
Q. Is it then right for us to say that one who was not received into the Church before his death, is damned?

The point being made is that we don't know if someone had a conversion at the hour of death. CONVERSION. Augustinus21, you're so focused on Baptism of Desire that you're missing the necessity of the Catholic faith. Fr. Mueller's position is akin to Baptism of Desire for catechumens.
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Augustinus21 on August 10, 2019, 11:36:19 AM
What's that got to do with what I said? You accused Fr. Feeney of arrogance for saying infidels are damned, I showed you proof that we are in fact REQUIRED to testify that infidels are damned.
If what you’re saying is that infidels  who die infidels are damned, then there’s no disagreement here. All I’m saying is that a naturally virtuous infidel will receive a chance to accept the Faith from God at the moment of death. If he accepts the Faith, he will certainly be saved, even without water Baptism. Fr. Feeney would disagree with that 
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Incredulous on August 10, 2019, 11:36:25 AM
https://novusordowatch.org/2019/04/father-leonard-feeney-justification-salvation/ (https://novusordowatch.org/2019/04/father-leonard-feeney-justification-salvation/)

Justification and Salvation: What did Fr. Leonard Feeney teach? (https://novusordowatch.org/2019/04/father-leonard-feeney-justification-salvation/)
April 24, 2019




Sean,

You are so mischievous.  

(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fgivemethatmountain.org%2Fimages%2Farticle-images%2Fmischievous-boy3.JPG&f=1)

You know this topic is verboten under Cathinfo's open categories.

It is to be placed in the "Father Feeney Ghetto" category Matthew so graciously made for us.

Why, if you don't remove it, I'll counter you with a fusillade of evidence on +ABL's theology of four Baptisms, which supports Karl Rahner's heresy of universal salvation.

Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Augustinus21 on August 10, 2019, 11:37:27 AM
Have you seen an angel convert someone either? I haven't.
We could not. It is between the individual and God as Muller says
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Augustinus21 on August 10, 2019, 11:43:43 AM
I was about to post that.

It's not registering to him that there is a change from adhering to a non-Catholic sect to now adhering to the Catholic faith.

The point being made is that we don't know if someone had a conversion at the hour of death. CONVERSION. Augustinus21, you're so focused on Baptism of Desire that you're missing the necessity of the Catholic faith. Fr. Mueller's position is akin to Baptism of Desire for catechumens.
No it’s not. A catechumen has received the Faith to some degree. He’s talking about people who have not received the Faith through no fault of their own. 
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: trad123 on August 10, 2019, 11:46:01 AM
Define: receiving the faith
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Augustinus21 on August 10, 2019, 11:50:01 AM
Define: receiving the faith
Being given a clear idea of the Trinity and the Incarnation and the nature of the Church. One who knows these teachings and rejects them will be damned
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: trad123 on August 10, 2019, 12:01:05 PM
Please explain to me what is happening here:

Quote
A. I mean that God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten, at the hour of death, one who is not yet a Catholic, so that he may see the truth of the Catholic faith, be truly sorry for his sins, and sincerely desire to die a good Catholic.

Is this not  "Being given a clear idea of the Trinity and the Incarnation and the nature of the Church"  ?
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Augustinus21 on August 10, 2019, 12:03:47 PM
Please explain to me what is happening here:

Is this not  "Being given a clear idea of the Trinity and the Incarnation and the nature of the Church"  ?
Yes, it is. What are you getting at?
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: trad123 on August 10, 2019, 12:10:48 PM
God have mercy, man!


Quote
He’s talking about people who have not received the Faith through no fault of their own

He's explicitly talking about a person who has received the faith at the hour of death. You persist in categorizing such individuals, who have received the faith at the hour of death, as a person who has not received the faith.

It's definition contradiction.
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: forlorn on August 10, 2019, 12:12:55 PM
We could not. It is between the individual and God as Muller says
Completely missing my point. For you to believe an angel can baptise, I must provide eye-witness testimony But to believe an angel can evangelise, no evidence is needed? It's hypocritical. 
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: roscoe on August 10, 2019, 06:14:45 PM
https://novusordowatch.org/2019/04/father-leonard-feeney-justification-salvation/ (https://novusordowatch.org/2019/04/father-leonard-feeney-justification-salvation/)

Justification and Salvation: What did Fr. Leonard Feeney teach? (https://novusordowatch.org/2019/04/father-leonard-feeney-justification-salvation/)
April 24, 2019

(https://cdn.printfriendly.com/buttons/printfriendly-pdf-button.png) (https://novusordowatch.org/2019/04/father-leonard-feeney-justification-salvation/#)
Bizarre theology alert…

Justification and Salvation:
What did Fr. Leonard Feeney teach?

(https://novusordowatch.org/wp-content/uploads/leonard-feeney-GettyImages-92937302.jpg)
Original caption: “UNITED STATES – CIRCA 1949: Rev. Leonard Feeney of the Jesuit order engaging in controversy with his superiors regarding teaching of Catholic doctrine.” (Photo by Alfred Eisenstaedt/The LIFE Picture Collection/Getty Images)

On April 12, Michael Voris of Church Militant stunned his fan base as he suddenly began promoting (https://www.churchmilitant.com/video/episode/vortex-heretic-or-loyal-son) the person and theology of the late Fr. Leonard Feeney, S.J. (1897-1978) and the St. Benedict Center he helped shape (at least the one in New Hampshire — there is another one in Massachusetts). Two more similar articles and Vortex episodes followed, as well as a full interview with the prior of the NH St. Benedict Center and a direct call to give financial support to the group, which is not in “full communion” with the Novus Ordo diocese. On April 23, however, Church Militant released an article against Feeneyism, probably confusing its readership even more. Written by Jim Russell, it is entitled “Fr. Feeney’s Strange Doctrine” (https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/fr.-feeneys-strange-doctrine) and expresses criticism of the theological position of today’s St. Benedict Center as well.
The case of Leonard Feeney is a truly tragic one in Church history, but it exemplifies how heresies and false teachings often arise as an excessive or false reaction to another heresy or error they are trying to combat. There is no question that the Church’s dogma of No Salvation Outside the Church (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, or EENS; see Denz. 430 (http://denzinger.patristica.net/denzinger/#n400)) was more and more being effectively undermined and attacked in the 1940s and ’50s, not simply by people outside the Church but also by many within. In his 1950 landmark encyclical against the renascent Modernism of his day, Pope Pius XII warned: “Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation” (Encyclical Humani Generis (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12human.htm), n. 27). It was this trend that Feeney sought to remedy, but he did so by distorting the Church’s teaching in the opposite direction. In 1947, he began preaching bizarre ideas about justification, salvation, and the necessity of the Church and thus got himself in trouble with the authorities of his order (Jesuits) as well as the diocese in which he was functioning (Archdiocese of Boston).
Another Catholic priest who was conscious of the dire need to counteract the dangerous subversion of EENS but who did so using sound Catholic theology was Mgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton (https://novusordowatch.org/2017/07/vatican2-diaries-fenton/), professor of fundamental dogmatic theology at the Catholic University of America and editor of the American Ecclesiastical Review (1943-63). A former student of the legendary Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P., Fenton was an expert in the field of ecclesiology. Pope Pius XII recognized Fenton’s theological achievements and bestowed upon him the medal Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_Ecclesia_et_Pontifice) in 1954. In 1958, Fenton published the magnificent work The Catholic Church and Salvation in the Light of Recent Pronouncements by the Holy See (https://www.daughtersofmarypress.com/store/item_view.php?id=1000068&item=the-catholic-church-and-salvation). An assortment of his numerous articles on the Church was recently published as The Church of Christ: A Collection of Essays by Monsignor Joseph C. Fenton (https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1944418083/interregnumnow-20).
Alas, despite correction from the Holy Office (Decree Suprema Haec Sacra (https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=1467) of Aug. 8, 1949), Feeney persisted in his errors, and in 1953 he was excommunicated by Pope Pius XII ferendae sententiae for grave disobedience, as he obstinately refused to obey the order to appear at the Vatican to explain his doctrine, even under pain of excommunication. (The false pope Paul VI (https://novusordowatch.org/paul-vi/) eventually rescinded the excommunication, at least putatively.)
But just what strange doctrines did Fr. Feeney teach?
To answer this question, we present an article written by Fr. Benedict Hughes, CMRI (https://novusordowatch.org/2014/12/devotion-fatima-message/), which was published in The Reign of Mary (http://www.cmri.org/reign_of_mary.shtml) two years ago. In it, Fr. Benedict presents direct quotations from Feeney’s own 1952 book The Bread of Life and critiques it in light of genuine Catholic doctrine: “My purpose will be to present the teachings of Father Feeney and allow the reader to see how these contradict Church teaching”, the author states.
Other resources to help provide clarity with regard to EENS include the new book Contra Crawford (https://novusordowatch.org/2018/11/contra-crawford-baptism-of-desire-blood/), Bp. Donald Sanborn’s Anti-Feeneyite Catechism (http://mostholytrinityseminary.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Combined-Feeney-articles-red.pdf), our TRADCAST 004 (https://novusordowatch.org/2015/04/tradcast-004-is-here/), and the web site baptismofdesire.com (http://baptismofdesire.com/). A simple slogan by which to remember the orthodox Catholic attitude in the EENS debate would be: “Fenton, not Feeney.”
For this post, we will not enable the combox because this topic always triggers endless heated discussion that would tie us up in moderating user contributions all day long.


(https://novusordowatch.org/wp-content/uploads/reign-of-mary-164-summer-2017.jpg)

Justification and Salvation: What did Fr. Leonard Feeney teach?
By Rev. Father Benedict Hughes, CMRI
First published in The Reign of Mary, no. 164 (https://www.cmri.org/rm164.shtml) (Summer 2017)
Reprinted here with permission. All formatting as in original.
Cornelius was a good man. Devout and God-fearing, he was known for his almsgiving. In fact, Holy Scripture tells us that he prayed to God “continually”—no small praise coming, as it does, from the Holy Ghost Himself. There was, however, one major problem with Cornelius—he was a pagan.
The fascinating story of this Roman centurion is narrated in the 10th chapter of the Acts of the Apostles. One day, while Cornelius was at prayer, an angel appeared to him and instructed him to send messengers to Joppa, a city by the sea, to ask Saint Peter to come to him. Three messengers were dispatched, and they arrived in Joppa the next day. Meanwhile, Saint Peter was instructed by the Holy Ghost to accompany these men back to their city. So the following day he departed with them for Caesarea.
Peter arrived with his companions to find a houseful, for Cornelius, in his enthusiasm, had invited his friends and relatives. After hearing Cornelius tell of the message of the angel who had instructed him to send for Peter, the latter replied, “Now I really understand that God is not a respecter of persons, but in every nation he who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him” (Acts, 10:34-5). He then went on to explain that Jesus is truly the Messias predicted by the prophets. And, “while Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came upon all who were listening to this message” (Acts, 10:44). Peter and his companions were amazed that the Holy Ghost had come upon these Gentiles, “for they heard them speaking in tongues and magnifying God. Then Peter answered, ‘Can anyone refuse the water to baptize these, seeing that they have received the Holy Spirit just as we did?’” (Acts, 10: 46-7). He then ordered them to be baptized.
This marvelous story shows the wonderful effects of cooperation with grace. It is particularly of interest to see that the Holy Ghost came upon these souls before they were baptized. This fact brings up an interesting question: What would have become of their souls, had they died before they were baptized? In other words, how do we describe the state of their souls during the interval when they listened to and accepted Peter’s teaching, but had not yet been baptized? To answer this question, we need first to understand what is meant by justification, and what the Church teaches in this regard.
What is Justification?
In the Gospel we read the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican (Luke, 18:9-14). Our Lord tells us that this man (the publican) went away from the temple justified, rather than the other. Of course, there are many other places in Scripture where the word justification, or its derivatives, are used. So what exactly does it mean? Simply put, one who is in the state of sanctifying grace is in the state of justification. In other words, his soul is in a state in which it is pleasing to God, who looks upon that soul and sees therein the life of grace, which is a sharing in His own life. He cannot but be pleased at this. As the catechism puts it, “by sanctifying grace we become holy and pleasing to God.”
In the 16th century, the Council of Trent was convoked to respond to the various erroneous teachings of Martin Luther, which had been leading so many souls out of the Church. Primary among his heretical notions was the idea that justification is obtained by faith alone, without any need for good works. The Catholic Church condemned this teaching and explained that justification requires both faith and good works. Moreover, it is a gratuitous gift of God that we cannot merit. It is only by the death of Christ on the cross that we are able to obtain this precious gift of grace, for which we ought always to joyfully render “thanks to the Father, who has made us worthy to share the lot of the saints in light. He has rescued us from the power of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have our redemption, the remission of our sins” (Col, 1:12-14).
Without this state of justification, of sanctifying grace, it is impossible to attain salvation. Simply put, at the moment of death, a soul in the state of sanctifying grace is saved, but one who dies deprived of the precious gift of God’s grace is lost. Of course, it is necessary that one also be baptized, but what if a person dies in the state of grace without having received this sacrament? The Church teaches that such a person can be incorporated into the Church and thus can be saved through what is called “Baptism of Desire.” This teaching of the Church, however, has been bitterly opposed by Father Leonard Feeney and his followers. In this article, I do not intend to repeat the same material that has already been covered so many times in various articles, which cite the teachings of the Church and theologians. My purpose will be to present the teachings of Father Feeney and allow the reader to see how these contradict Church teaching.
What Did Father Feeney Teach?
In order to fairly and accurately represent the teachings of Father Leonard Feeney, I decided to read the book which he published in 1952 titled The Bread of Life. In the introduction he states: “I have been persuaded by the members of my Order, The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, to publish some of the talks I have been giving on Thursday evenings at Saint Benedict Center, Cambridge, Massachusetts, during the past ten years.” So we see that this book is a compilation of lectures he had given in the 1940s and early 1950s. Throughout the remainder of this article I will be quoting from the 1974 edition of this book.
In the book Father Feeney correctly explains what is meant by justification. He also correctly makes the distinction between justification and salvation: “Justification is of our entrance into the state of sanctifying grace. Salvation is our reward for persevering in grace” (pp. 39-40). On the other hand, he claims that “it is a lack of knowledge of this most important and basic distinction (between justification and salvation)… that has led the Liberal theologians of our day to keep on saying that all you need to do to be saved is to be justified, and that you can be justified without the waters of Redemption….” (pp. 14-15).
So what about a person, like Cornelius before his baptism, who receives the grace of God into his soul through supernatural faith and charity, but who dies before he can be baptized? Father Feeney teaches that he cannot be saved. In a question and answer format, he states as follows:
In another place he is even more emphatic: “Unbaptized adults who die go to Hell” (p. 128).
So there you have it. No baptism with water—no salvation, even though the departed was in the state of justification at his death. That would mean that there are souls in hell who are in the state of sanctifying grace. This is not only erroneous, it is blasphemous. To say that a person who loves God and is in the state of sanctifying grace would be damned to hell for all eternity would, in my opinion be a blasphemy. For it would join God (who lives in the soul that is in the state of grace) with the devil in hell. That cannot be.
Imagining a conversation with a theologian who believes in Baptism of Desire, Father Feeney instructs his adherents as follows: If the theologian asks, “‘If you die in the state of justification, without yet being baptized, are you not saved?’ You must answer him, ‘No, you are not.’ … ‘And if he persists in saying, ‘Well, where does one go who dies in the state of justification which has been achieved without Baptism?’—insist that he does not go to Heaven” (p. 135).
In another place he repeats this teaching, once again in a question and answer format:
“Question: Are the souls of those who die in the state of justification saved, if they have not received Baptism of Water? Answer: No. They are not saved” (p. 137).
As you can see, this would mean that there is no hope for one who has not been baptized. Father Feeney even says, “When you go to Heaven, most of the Americans you meet will be under seven years of age!” (p. 23). Think about that for a minute!
It’s Just Too Bad!
Father Feeney realizes that his teaching is harsh, to the point of being cruel: “If I seem to be cruel in this matter…” (p. 136). In another place he states that “the Holy Spirit is not interested in our love until the waters of regeneration have flowed on us” (p. 138).
But what if one is unable to receive the sacrament of baptism, through no fault of his own? Father Feeney would say that it is just too bad: “If you do not receive Baptism of Water, you cannot be saved, whether you were guilty or not guilty of not having received it” (p. 126). Again, he says, “And now let me go back to what is called necessity of means in a sacramental requirement. Necessity of means means, if you have not got the requirement, it is just too bad for you, whether you are to blame or whether you are not to blame. If you are not to blame, it is just too bad” (p. 128).
So it is just too bad! If you have not been baptized with water, you are lost—period. What does this say of our understanding of God’s mercy? In fact, it seems rather to be similar to the teachings of John Calvin, John Knox and Cornelius Jansen on predestination—that God created some souls to damn them, and there is nothing they can do about it. Fr. Feeney even says, “I myself would say, my dear children, that a catechumen who dies before Baptism, is punished” (p. 125). Again, “it is just too bad”! How does this square with that doctrine set forth in Scripture, that God desires the salvation of all men: “Who wishes all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (I Tim., 2:4)?
Disparaging the Pope
One important point of doctrine—which Father Feeney taught correctly—is the absolute necessity of submission to the successor of Saint Peter, the Vicar of Christ on earth. To quote again from his book: “No one can possibly enter the Kingdom of Heaven without personal submission to our Holy Father the Pope” (p. 186). The irony, however, is that Father Feeney himself did not submit to the true Pope. For one thing, he published his book without an imprimatur, in violation of Canon law, which was promulgated by the Pope. He continued to operate apart, and in defiance of, the local magisterium, for which he was finally excommunicated by the Holy Office on February 13, 1953.
He also spoke in a disparaging way about papal teaching. For instance, he refers to the teaching of Pope Pius IX as follows: “And this false reasoning is built up from an interpretation of a couple of sentences of Pope Pius IX… two carelessly worded sentences in an encyclical of Pope Pius IX, on which the Liberals base their teaching…” (p. 53). In this statement he is referring to the allocution Singulari Quadam (https://novusordowatch.org/pius9-singulari-quadam/) (12/9/1854; Denzinger #1647 (http://denzinger.patristica.net/denzinger/#n1600)) and to the encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9quanto.htm)(8/10/1863; Denzinger #1677 (http://denzinger.patristica.net/denzinger/#n1600)). We will not reproduce the actual quotes here, which can be read at www.baptismofdesire.com (http://www.baptismofdesire.com/). The point to be made is the hubris and condescension with which Father Feeney refers to papal teaching—an attitude that is shocking and scandalous to any serious-minded Catholic.
He also ignores the fact that the doctrine of Baptism of Desire has been clearly taught by the Church for many centuries. The Council of Trent taught, in referring to the translation of the sinner from the state of sin into the state of grace: “This translation however cannot, since the promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire….” (Session VI, Chapter 4). This same teaching has consistently been taught by the Church and her theologians, both before and after the Council of Trent.
Yet, Father Feeney claims that the teaching of Baptism of Desire originated with the Baltimore Catechism in the 19th century: “The crucial point, then at which heresy entered the Catholic Church in the United States and backwashed to the dying Faith of Europe and the rest of the world, was through the teaching of the doctrine known as ‘Baptism of Desire’ in the Baltimore Catechism” (p. 118). As you can see, he completely ignores what was taught by Popes and theologians long before there ever was a Baltimore Catechism. For instance, Saint Alphonsus Maria de Liguori, who lived in the 18th century, taught as follows:
This is just one example of pre-19th century teaching, which completely destroys Father Feeney’s claim that the teaching of the Baltimore Catechism “backwashed” to Europe and the rest of the world. There was no Baltimore Catechism when Saint Alphonsus wrote these words.
There are other strange things to be found in The Bread of Life. For example, Fr. Feeney says the following concerning infants who die after baptism: “They go to the Beatific Vision. They are of the kingdom of Mary; but they are not the children of Mary. Mary is their Queen, but not their Mother.” (p. 98). It is indeed a strange notion that Mary is not the Mother of infants who die in the grace of God. But the following notion is even more bizarre: “If a child dies after having received Baptism, he dies as the son of God, but not yet as the child of Mary. When he gets his body back, at the end of the world, he has to drink of the Chalice in the Kingdom of his Father in order to be incorporated in flesh and blood with Jesus—and so become Mary’s child. There is no other way!” (p. 98). So does this mean that it is possible to receive the Holy Eucharist in heaven? What else could he mean by “drink the Chalice”?
Conclusion
In this article I have quoted from Fr. Feeney’s own book, in order to be able to explain his teaching in his own words. I certainly do not advocate anyone reading the book by Father Feeney, filled as it is with error and having been published contrary to the requirements of Canon law. I am merely quoting from it in order to demonstrate clearly what Father Feeney taught—to get it straight from the horse’s mouth, as the saying goes.
The story of Father Leonard Feeney is indeed a tragic one. Born in Lynn, Massachusetts in 1897, he entered the Jesuit novitiate in 1914 and was ordained in 1928. After holding several different teaching positions, he became chaplain of the Saint Benedict Center at Harvard Square in 1945. Due to concerns over his teachings, he was ordered by his Jesuit superiors to go to College of the Holy Cross in Worcester. At first he complied with this order and went to Holy Cross, but later, under the influence of two laymen affiliated with Saint Benedict Center, he returned there, in defiance of his superior’s orders.
Eventually, he was summoned to Rome but refused to go. His refusal ultimately led to his excommunication by the Holy Office in 1953. Fr. Feeney was defiant, claiming that the excommunication against him was not valid. He moved his Saint Benedict Center to Still River, Massachusetts, and operated there without subjecting himself to the legitimate authority of the bishop of Worcester. His group purchased a large commune and begin to live a life separated from other Catholics and from the hierarchy of the Church. This group began to engage in bizarre practices such as breaking up families (taking the children from their parents, whom they were not allowed to see except on certain feast days) and brutal punishments imposed on the children for minor infractions.
Fr. Feeney eventually submitted to the local bishop in 1972 and sought to have his excommunication lifted. Although this was well after Vatican II, and therefore the legitimacy of the local bishop is questionable, we can nevertheless hope that his submission was sincere. Father Feeney died in 1978, but, sadly, his followers have continued to spread his errors far and wide. It is high time that they humbly submit to the teachings of Holy Mother Church, the “pillar and ground of truth” [1 Tim 3:15], for indeed, one who rejects the Church Christ founded by rejecting her teachings, will certainly not be able to save his soul.
There is  NO SUCH THING as 'Feeneyism' as Fr Feeney was supported by Pope Pius XII in the Encyclical Humani Generis. And btw-any piece of paper claiming that Fr Feeney was called to Rome or ex-communicated for failure to comply is a FRAUD. :baby:
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 10, 2019, 06:54:15 PM
There's nothing in this article that is new.  Every one of its arguments has been repeated on almost every BOD thread on this site.  Are some of you that woeful at reading comprehension that you didn't recognize this?
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Ladislaus on August 10, 2019, 07:39:18 PM
Johnson's up to his old tricks  He fled the other thread when his argument about God being "unjust" in not providing the opportunity for salvation to everyone.  So he spins up a bunch of spam threads to distract from the fact that he was destroyed.

Next, Johnson will demand that Matthew ban us "heretics", and then pretend to storm out of CI, never to return.

After that, he'll start posting the same nonsense in the Anonymous forum.

Then he'll magically reappear after claiming that he'd never return.
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Ladislaus on August 10, 2019, 07:47:36 PM
Another Catholic priest who was conscious of the dire need to counteract the dangerous subversion of EENS but who did so using sound Catholic theology was Mgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton (https://novusordowatch.org/2017/07/vatican2-diaries-fenton/), professor of fundamental dogmatic theology at the Catholic University of America and editor of the American Ecclesiastical Review (1943-63). A former student of the legendary Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P., Fenton was an expert in the field of ecclesiology. Pope Pius XII recognized Fenton’s theological achievements and bestowed upon him the medal Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_Ecclesia_et_Pontifice) in 1954. In 1958, Fenton published the magnificent work The Catholic Church and Salvation in the Light of Recent Pronouncements by the Holy See (https://www.daughtersofmarypress.com/store/item_view.php?id=1000068&item=the-catholic-church-and-salvation). An assortment of his numerous articles on the Church was recently published as The Church of Christ: A Collection of Essays by Monsignor Joseph C. Fenton (https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1944418083/interregnumnow-20).

I love it how the Pelagians always pull Fenton out of the closet as an "expert in the field of ecclesiology," but then denounce the expert when he later stated that Vatican II represented an "improvement" in Catholic teaching on ecclesiology.  Fenton was a student of the "legendary" Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange  :laugh1:

Also, the rabid foaming-at-the-mouth anti-sedevacantist Johnson invokes the suddenly-expert sedevacantist CMRI author for his refutation.    This man is clearly a great theologian about ecclesiology ... except for the deeply faulty ecclesiology that led to his sedevacantist conclusions.  Oh, and Johnson cites the reputable NovusOrdoWatch ... but pay no attention that he elsewhere denounces the site as complete garbage.  Ah, yes, Herod and Pilate have become friends this day.

You're actually getting pathetic, Sean.
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Ladislaus on August 10, 2019, 07:53:02 PM
Seán is still ignoring this point, as he has done in multiple threads over the course of the last week.

Correct.  That is why he abandoned ship and started new spam threads.  That's his usual M.O.
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Ladislaus on August 10, 2019, 07:55:52 PM
There's little doubt but that Johnson created this new Augustine21 account in order to create the illusion that he has another ally in his fight.  Pretty soon Augustinus will be issuing the  :applause: in response to Johnson's posts.
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 10, 2019, 08:32:02 PM
There's little doubt but that Johnson created this new Augustine21 account in order to create the illusion that he has another ally in his fight.  Pretty soon Augustinus will be issuing the  :applause: in response to Johnson's posts.
This is habitual in you:
Are you a paranoid schizophrenic?
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 10, 2019, 11:08:36 PM
Johnson's up to his old tricks  He fled the other thread when his argument about God being "unjust" in not providing the opportunity for salvation to everyone.  So he spins up a bunch of spam threads to distract from the fact that he was destroyed.

Next, Johnson will demand that Matthew ban us "heretics", and then pretend to storm out of CI, never to return.

After that, he'll start posting the same nonsense in the Anonymous forum.

Then he'll magically reappear after claiming that he'd never return.

I know I made a good post when Loudestmouth goes apoplectic, and runs off 12-13 2-sentence posts in response.

Oh, the frothy lathering, and gnashing of Feeneyite teeth; I can hear the wailing...
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: roscoe on August 11, 2019, 01:10:02 PM
There is NO SUCH THING as a 'Feeneyite'... :sleep:
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 11, 2019, 06:17:58 PM

Quote
Feeney persisted in his errors, and in 1953 he was excommunicated by Pope Pius XII ferendae sententiae for grave disobedience, as he obstinately refused to obey the order to appear at the Vatican to explain his doctrine, even under pain of excommunication. (The false pope Paul VI (https://novusordowatch.org/paul-vi/) eventually rescinded the excommunication, at least putatively.)
I enjoy the insanity of contradiction when the sspx or sedes point out Fr Feeney's "excommunication", being that all of the bishops of both these groups are excommunicated as well.  The 2nd contradiction is that most sedes don't even consider Pius XII to have been a valid pope.  The 3rd contradiction is that Paul VI rescinded the excommunication, which the sspx should accept, but they don't.  
.
Contradictions all around.  But the worst one is Sean, a rabid anti-sede, using Sede sources for this topic.  Ahh, isn't summertime great for cherry-picking?
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: trad123 on August 11, 2019, 06:23:51 PM
The 2nd contradiction is that most sedes don't even consider Pius XII to have been a valid pope.

Where do you get that from?
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 11, 2019, 06:29:58 PM
There is NO SUCH THING as Roscoe.
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Ladislaus on August 11, 2019, 07:39:33 PM
Hey, Sean, are you ready to take a stab yet about why you don't consider it unjust that God would not give an infant who dies without Baptism a chance at salvation?
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: forlorn on August 11, 2019, 07:40:09 PM
I know I made a good post when Loudestmouth goes apoplectic, and runs off 12-13 2-sentence posts in response.

Oh, the frothy lathering, and gnashing of Feeneyite teeth; I can hear the wailing...
Still no attempt to address our points. I'll ask again. If God would be unjust for not giving an invincibly ignorant man a chance at the beatific vision, then how is God not unjust for creating souls which He knows will be aborted, or die as infants before baptism? If you believe unbaptised babies don't go to Heaven, while simultaneously saying that the creation of any soul that didn't get a chance at the Beatific Vision is unjust, then you are saying God is unjust.

Major: The creation of souls that do not have a chance to achieve the Beatific Vision is unjust
Minor: Aborted babies, which God creates, do not get a chance to achieve the Beatific Vision.
Conclusion: God is unjust.

You've spent over a week dodging this basic point, that your premises when followed to their logical conclusions would mean God is unjust. Which is ridiculous and blasphemous.
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 11, 2019, 08:17:37 PM
Hey, Sean, are you ready to take a stab yet about why you don't consider it unjust that God would not give an infant who dies without Baptism a chance at salvation?

Loudestmouth-

That is YOUR position, not mine.

My position is that it WOULD be unjust to create someone unavoidably destined for damnation (Calvin).
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: forlorn on August 11, 2019, 08:30:49 PM
Loudestmouth-

That is YOUR position, not mine.

My position is that it WOULD be unjust to create someone unavoidably destined for damnation (Calvin).
If they died without stain of mortal sin, they would go to Limbo just like an unbaptised infant. 
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Ladislaus on August 12, 2019, 08:28:44 AM
Loudestmouth-

That is YOUR position, not mine.

My position is that it WOULD be unjust to create someone unavoidably destined for damnation (Calvin).

So, clarify.  Which part of the position is not yours?  Do you not believe that unbaptized infants who die can be saved?

Nice try to slither out, Johnson, but there's nothing unjust about an adult going to hell.  Whatever punishment said adult would receive would be imposed in strict justice in consequence of his sins.  As forlorn pointed out, had they committed no sins, they would also not have any eternal punishment but would be in the same state as unbaptized infants.

So you stewed over this for nearly a week, and this is the best you could come up with?

Of course, it's also a lie, Johnson, because you had previous stated that it would be unjust for God not to give souls a chance at salvation (with no reference do damnation).  So are you amending your position?  Are you saying that it is NOT unjust for God not to give any given soul a chance for salvation?
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Ladislaus on August 12, 2019, 08:35:52 AM
LET US NOW EXPOSE JOHNSON'S LIE --

in the previous thread, Johnson declared:

Quote
Limbo is the border region of hell: Those who are consigned to it do not see the face of God (which is the primary punishment of the damned).

They may be saved from the pain of sense (Aquinas v Augustine), but not from the loss of the beatific vision which they experienced at their particular judgment.

A God who would do this would be unjust, which ought to show the Feeneyite error.

So previously, Johnson stated that God would be unjust for sending someone to Limbo without first having a chance for salvation.

Now Johnson lies and claims that his position has been that God would only be unjust for actually damning someone to hell (vs. Limbo).
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 12, 2019, 08:44:13 AM
LET US NOW EXPOSE JOHNSON'S LIE --

in the previous thread, Johnson declared:

So previously, Johnson stated that God would be unjust for sending someone to Limbo without first having a chance for salvation.

Now Johnson lies and claims that his position has been that God would only be unjust for actually damning someone to hell (vs. Limbo).
Loudestmouth-

Limbo IS in hell.

http://danteworlds.laits.utexas.edu/circle1.html (http://danteworlds.laits.utexas.edu/circle1.html)
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Ladislaus on August 12, 2019, 11:26:12 AM
Loudestmouth-

Limbo IS in hell.

http://danteworlds.laits.utexas.edu/circle1.html (http://danteworlds.laits.utexas.edu/circle1.html)

:facepalm:

You're too much of an ignoramus to even understand how you lie and contradict yourself.

Try to follow along without hurting yourself.

You SEEM to be arguing in this thread that God would not be unjust to send unbaptized infants to Limbo, claiming that is your position ... whereas on the earlier thread you declared that God would be unjust even to send people to Limbo without giving them a "chance".
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: ByzCat3000 on August 12, 2019, 07:58:55 PM
I'm gonna add my voice to Ladislaus' question.  And I believe in Baptism of Desire.

If an infant dies in infancy, without baptism, they had no chance of salvation, yet they go to Limbo.

So why is it UNJUST for God to similarly sentence an adult who has never heard the gospel or committed a mortal sin to Limbo?

I can see why it would be unjust if God sentenced them to eternal torment.  I think that would be unjust, as far as I can understand.  But how is anyone owed the beatific vision, or even a chance at it?  Isn't saying that anyone is owed such a thing pelagian?
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: JoeZ on August 12, 2019, 08:47:11 PM
If I may,

Christ's words Himself from the Gospel of Matthew, chptr XI;

"Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida: for if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes. [22] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=11&l=22-#x) But I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment, than for you. [23] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=11&l=23-#x)And thou Capharnaum, shalt thou be exalted up to heaven? thou shalt go down even unto hell. For if in Sodom had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in thee, perhaps it had remained unto this day. [24] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=11&l=24-#x) But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. [25] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=11&l=25-#x) At that time Jesus answered and said: I confess to thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to the little ones."

Implicit in His argument is the seeming inequity of revelation. Why are those from Trye and Sidon kept ignorant of something that would lead to their salvation. God's ways are inscrutable, we can only guess. Is their ignorance a mercy as was stated before? If God reveals too much to the Sodomites perhaps those souls loose their free will because they can't help but choose the good. That's how free will works. Why is one saved and one is not? St Augustine says you begin to err as soon as you begin to wonder. 
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: ByzCat3000 on August 12, 2019, 08:49:56 PM
If I may,

Christ's words Himself from the Gospel of Matthew, chptr XI;

"Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida: for if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes. [22] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=11&l=22-#x) But I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment, than for you. [23] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=11&l=23-#x)And thou Capharnaum, shalt thou be exalted up to heaven? thou shalt go down even unto hell. For if in Sodom had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in thee, perhaps it had remained unto this day. [24] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=11&l=24-#x) But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. [25] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=11&l=25-#x) At that time Jesus answered and said: I confess to thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to the little ones."

Implicit in His argument is the seeming inequity of revelation. Why are those from Trye and Sidon kept ignorant of something that would lead to their salvation. God's ways are inscrutable, we can only guess. Is their ignorance a mercy as was stated before? If God reveals too much to the Sodomites perhaps those souls loose their free will because they can't help but choose the good. That's how free will works. Why is one saved and one is not? St Augustine says you begin to err as soon as you begin to wonder.
To be fair the text only says they'd have done penance, not necessarily that they'd attain final salvation.  I agree with the point though.

My belief that God may save some invincibly ignorant souls or even catechumens isn't based on any belief that he is so obligated/
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Last Tradhican on August 13, 2019, 12:45:45 AM
And I believe in Baptism of Desire.
Baptism off desire always meant explicit baptism of desire of the catechumen, just like gαy meant merry. Today, when Catholics say that they believe in baptism of desire, it means that they believe that anyone can be saved outside of the Church, and that is as dishonest as the sodomites today calling themselves gαy. That's a big problem. (P.S. - Implicit Baptism of Desire meant the same as Baptism of desire above, but for not yet catechumens who wanted to be a Catholic, and in both cases they required belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity.)

The writer should have written that he believes in salvation by implicit faith or by belief in a god that rewards, or salvation for people in the whole of humanity.

Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 13, 2019, 08:43:17 AM
Great points, LT.  BOD today is a catch-all for all kinds of beliefs.  It's like when people say they're "conservative".  What does that mean exactly?  Depends on the person.
Title: Re: Feeneyism Destroyed
Post by: Ladislaus on August 13, 2019, 08:54:39 AM
I'm gonna add my voice to Ladislaus' question.  And I believe in Baptism of Desire.

If an infant dies in infancy, without baptism, they had no chance of salvation, yet they go to Limbo.

So why is it UNJUST for God to similarly sentence an adult who has never heard the gospel or committed a mortal sin to Limbo?

I can see why it would be unjust if God sentenced them to eternal torment.  I think that would be unjust, as far as I can understand.  But how is anyone owed the beatific vision, or even a chance at it?  Isn't saying that anyone is owed such a thing pelagian?

Yes, ByzCat, that's been my issue all along.  So many of the BoD proponents are actually secret Pelagians or semi-Pelagians.  THAT is what I have an issue with.  I have NO problem with someone who JUST believes in BoD.  After all, St. Thomas did, St. Alphonsus, and St. Robert Bellarmine did ... all Doctors of the Church.  What I have a problem with is the implicit Pelagianism and the implicit anti-Tridentine ecclesiology (or, Vatican II ecclesiology) that the VAST MAJORITY of BoD proponents hold.  What the BoDers tend to do is to hide behind pro-BoD quotes from these Doctors to pretend that it actually supports their Pelagianism and their ecclesiology ... but it most certainly does not.  That's dishonest.

https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/'believers'-in-baptism-of-desire-and-being-'gαy'/msg663282/?topicseen#msg663282 (https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/'believers'-in-baptism-of-desire-and-being-'gαy'/msg663282/?topicseen#msg663282)