You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart.

If what I say to you is done[/b], many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end:

but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pope Pius XI.

When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father.

To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the Consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays.

If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace;

if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church.
The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated.

In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me,  

and she shall be converted,

and a period of peace will be granted to the world.

Quote from: Desmond

Conversion to what exactly? The Novus Ordo religion? So in actuality an apostasy.

Did Mary promise apostasy (utter abandonment of Christ)as a reward for the Nope fulfilling his duty to conform to her request? Makes no sense.

You forget about the chastisement predicted in supressed part of the Third Secret and by Our Lady in Akita, as well as numerous other prophecies of chastisement,

 perhaps Three Days of Darkness - after which there will be a restoration and then Russia can certainly be converted.

Quote from: Desmond

By the way they are right in saying the consecration, post failure to do so in due time, would not have required the comparticipation of all bishops etc.

That was only for a hypothetical valid one which would have also avoided WW2 and Russia's errors spreading, war, famine, etc.

How does that follow from any part of Fatima apparitions or later words of Our Lord and Our Lady to Sr Lucia? We know that the consecration will eventually happen, but it will be late (Our Lord clearly say "they will do it", which implies a valid consecration with every bishop).

Also, taking "a period of peace" to mean absolutely global absence of any conflict whatsoever is unfounded, and impossible given Man's Free Will.

What we have been dealing with since 1952 (allegedly final Consecration, according to the Dimonds) are not merely some local conflicts, but major conflicts including greatest world powers (Vietnam, Iraq, two invasions of Afghanistan - by Soviets and Americans), accompanied by incredibly bloody local conflicts

(Yugoslavian wars, Nagorno-Karabakh war, numerous wars in Africa - including Rwanda genocide). This was not a period of peace in any way, shape or form.

Also, despite human free will God can intervene to bring about His promises.

This is exactly what I called grasping at straws in trying to reconcile Fatima with sedevacantism and Dimonds' interpretation of Revelation and Malachy's Prophecy. When Our Lady spoke about conversion in previous Marian apparitions, it was conversion to the Catholic faith (like in the case of Mexican Indians) - nothing indicates She meant something else here.

Also, to suggest that fall of communism is conversion seems extremely unlikely - the fall of communism was certainly (at least to certain degree) a plot of high ranked communists who wanted to change the economical system to lay their hands down on huge money while this change was happening.

Also, in current Russia rates of abortion (highest in the world), alcoholism, spread of pornography and other abominations, together with involvment in military conflicts make any claims about Russia's supposed "conversion" absolutely ludicurous.

Sorry, but I take that as lack of faith in divine promises. Also, no one says that Novus Ordo will necessarily return to Catholicism immediately after Consecration of Russia - given the situation and other private revelations it is more probable that the Consecration will be done after the chastisement which will sweep away the Novus Ordo (I hope I'm wrong on that, though).

First of all, there was no "fake Third Secret manufactured by Vatican". Everyone agrees that the vision of bishop in white is authentic. What Vatican did was not manufacturing, but hiding part of the Third Secret.

Also, I don't think there is as much confusion as you claim - it is a well-established fact that there is another text which was covered-up and and we have enough evidence to get a pretty good idea what it contains (warning about apostasy in the Church and some sort of material chastisement).

There are enough quotes from Vatican hierarchy and people who had access to the Third Secret that we can say almost for sure that it includes apostasy in the Church starting at the top and some sort of material chastisement.

Combining it with numerous other private revelations saying about chastisement and apostasy we have a quite clear idea of what is to come if mankind does not repent - a chastisement

and restoration afterwards.

Also, I don't get the argument about 60+ years and entire generations - the Old Testament prophecies took hundreds of years to be fulfilled.

No, the entire demand of the Consecration was in context of requirements for avoiding Chastisement. Yet, we were told that the Consecration will happen despite being late and not fulfilling the purpose of avoiding WW2. Nowhere was the demand for bishops taking part in the Consecration lifted.

Europe and Russia not even touched? Yugoslavian wars with their ethnic cleansings, NATO bombings of Serbia, war in Chechenia. Also, while much of the areas of Europe and USA was not touched, people of Europe and USA certainly were by involvments of their countries in conflicts on other continents. Not to mention Africa, which is increasingly more Catholic (number of Catholics in Africa tripppled since the 1970s) and was ravished by numerous wars.

How can anyone claim that with Korean War, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Chechenia, wars in Africa, Yugoslavia, Falklands, Colombia etc. there was "a period of peace" is beyond me.  

Faith is a gift from God and God can give it to anyone he pleases at any time, just like He did to the pagans in Mexico, He can also change peoples hearts to bring about His promises. He actually changed our hearts, as without this grace we would all be lost. To doubt whether God could bring about a period of peace because of human free will is close to blasphemy and indicates a low view of God's sovereignty.

Right, and now show me example of a non-Catholic nation which was promised to be converted but it did not mean conversion to the Catholic faith.

I never said that. I just pointed out that Russia moved from one totalitarian system to another.

Christian? Only about 10% of Russians (I'd have to check exact number) practice Christianity, and majority of them are Orthodox schismatics which must be converted to the Catholic faith for salvation. Are we really to belive that this, combined with highest abortion rate in the world and numerous other evils which I mentioned, is conversion promised by Our Lady? Sorry, its impossible to hold this stuff together with consistency.

Of the triumph of Immaculate Heart of Mary, period of peace and conversion of Russia.

Nothing of this proves that the vision of bishop in white was manufactured (it is disturbing enough, if they wanted to manufacture it they would come up with something much less controversial), and it includes famous "in Portugal the dogma of faith will always be preserved etc.", which is a clear link with other text. I don't know of any Traditionalist who would question the authenticity of the vision of bishop in white, in fact ruined city and numerous killed clergyman can be connected to the material chastisement mentioned in the Third Secret (whatever its exact nature is).

There could have been additional details in the Third Secret, but the major message - apostasy and chastisement is well-known and docuмented with solid evidendce from numerous sources. To say this is only a speculation, I wonder how must one call Dimonds' interpretation of Revelation.

I read the Dimond's website on a regular basis, and when I saw the video about Fatima, I saw many interesting and different observations in it, however, it is full of holes. The one that stuck out was their "period of piece" when there was no period of peace.

My conclusion was that they believe that we are living today in the great apostasy and the end of times. From there they interpret Fatima. That is the bottom line

It is tough to argue that this is not the great apostasy, I mean, how can the hierarchy apostatize more than today at some time after Fatima's real period of peace and conversion of Russia and the World?

The Dimond's might have the right conclusion, we are living in the great apostasy and end times, however, how that fits in with the Fatima message as we know it, is another story.

It all hinges on whether this is the the great chastisement or not. No?

Are you suggesting that some sort of religious revival in schismatic Russian Orthodox sect which is outside the Church of Christ can be treated as part of conversion which Our Lady promised?

Also, I think you miss the most important aspect of Fatima here and this is the weakest part of your argument. Our Lord said that the Consecration needs to be done specifically to the Immaculate Heart of Mary so that the triumph will be the triumph of His Mother which will increase devotion to Her

Now, in your scenario the triumph of the Immaculate Heart (which must happen or have happened - we know it from the words of Our Lady my Immaculate Heart will triumph in the end) has already happened. Really? It would mean that the triumph of the Immaculate Heart was something almost no one realized, not even Traditionalists! Is this really a triumph which Our Lord wanted for His Mother and which Our Lady predicted? A triumph in a form of change of political system in Russia while keeping its abominations (including the highest abortion rate in the world) and mere limitation of warfare for some period of time, which no one recognized as the triumph of the Immaculate Heart save a dogmatic sedevacantist Benedictine monastery in NY?

No, this is not what Our Lady promised, this is what we and the consecutive Popes are bringing on ourselves for disobeying the command to consecrate Russia. Had we repented and had the Pope consecrated Russia, the chastisement could have been avoided and the conversion would come about without it.

Its not chronologically remote, rather Vatican made it like that through disobedience in regard to the Consecration of Russia - it did not happen, this is why there is no conversion. Once the Consecration is done, God will surely keep His promises.

Even the Dimonds do not question authenticity of the vision of bishop in white.

I still find the claim that we had "period of peace" to be rather desperate, especially calling conflicts in Africa "minor". We had wars in almost very country in Africa after 1952 - Ivory Coast, Rwanda, Congo, Sudan, Nigeria, Mozambique, Angola, Sierra Leone, Niger, Liberia, Uganda and others. Up to 1 (...)

it is a bloodbath, not a period of peace

it is certainly part of the chastisement, but I think private revelations (including Fatima) clearly indicate that the chastisement will not be merely spiritual, but also physical in nature. Look at it this way - although there have been various punishments from God already, the West is still gladly indulged in sin and does not realize any chastisement is happening. The worst sems to be ahead of us, sadly, unless we repent.

Whether the Dimond's final conclusion is right or Arvinger's side take of Fatima is correct :

ALL hinges on whether this is the the great apostasy and end times or not. No?

Do you believe this is not the great apostasy and end times Arvinger?

Outside of the mixing in of the 3 days of darkness into Fatima, I agree with Arvinger's critiques of the Dimond's  theory, however, I also think this has to be the great apostasy that we are living in today. Therefore, the Fatima message becomes a mystery to me. In fact they both become mysteries to me, since the Fatima message as we knew it, and the Great Apostasy contradict each other.

Quote from: Arvinger

Are you suggesting that some sort of religious revival in schismatic Russian Orthodox sect which is outside the Church of Christ can be treated as part of conversion which Our Lady promised?

Yes. Isn't EasternSchismaticism actually more orthodox than the NeoChurch's religion anyway?

And they do hold Mary in the highest regard.

Quote

Also, I think you miss the most important aspect of Fatima here and this is the weakest part of your argument. Our Lord said that the Consecration needs to be done specifically to the Immaculate Heart of Mary so that the triumph will be the triumph of His Mother which will increase devotion to Her

Friend, where does this come from? Anything post late 40s to early 50s was done by the fake Lucìa, so false.

That's why all Fatimology is flawed as it's hard to tell what's genuine and what isn't! I was working on the assumption only the Secrets could be trusted, given the depth of the deception and mischief we know were present.

Quote

Now, in your scenario the triumph of the Immaculate Heart (which must happen or have happened - we know it from the words of Our Lady my Immaculate Heart will triumph in the end) has already happened. Really? It would mean that the triumph of the Immaculate Heart was something almost no one realized, not even Traditionalists! Is this really a triumph which Our Lord wanted for His Mother and which Our Lady predicted? A triumph in a form of change of political system in Russia while keeping its abominations (including the highest abortion rate in the world) and mere limitation of warfare for some period of time, which no one recognized as the triumph of the Immaculate Heart save a dogmatic sedevacantist Benedictine monastery in NY?

Friend, it might be because:

Quote from: Arvinger

No, this is not what Our Lady promised, this is what we and the consecutive Popes are bringing on ourselves for disobeying the command to consecrate Russia. Had we repented and had the Pope consecrated Russia, the chastisement could have been avoided and the conversion would come about without it.

NOW, why does everyone assume that a consecration request ignored for 80 years and counting will yield perfect results, the same as if the request was heeded in due time?

Even the language used is different:

there will be peace vs a period of peace

Besides, the Secret does NOT say that.
It says "in the end, my Immaculate Hearth will triump", not that what will happen will be a Triumph of Her Immaculate Heart!!!

I take the sentence in the SS to mean... She will prevail against opposers and eventually the Consecration will happen, even if reluctantly and imperfectly due to wickedness and stubborness of Men.

Quote

I still find the claim that we had "period of peace" to be rather desperate, especially calling conflicts in Africa "minor". We had wars in almost very country in Africa after 1952 - Ivory Coast, Rwanda, Congo, Sudan, Nigeria, Mozambique, Angola, Sierra Leone, Niger, Liberia, Uganda and others. Up to 1 (...)

Mahometans and Hamites will do that regardless.

Quote

it is a bloodbath, not a period of peace

Is it a bloobath? Let's see, 3-5 million dead in 50+ years. Less than car accidents, which account for 1,250,000 estimated deaths per annum!
Now let's look at:
WW1
WW2
Communist purges/exterminations in USSRs, China, Cambodia etc.

And not even taking into account demographic incremental statistical considerations.