Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Ladislaus on January 30, 2019, 06:22:49 PM
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https://myfox8.com/2019/01/29/father-punished-kids-by-forcing-them-to-do-push-ups-for-30-minutes-straight-police-say/
They're widening the scope of "abuse" now. He was also accused of forcing them to eat soap (for cussing perhaps?)
I had teachers make kids eat soap for bad language, and I've had coaches do worse than make me do pushups for 30 minutes. So this is now abuse to the point of being arrested for it?
Also, he made them lean forward with their foreheads against the wall for 30 minutes.
Unbelievable. Next you'll be arrested for abuse by refusing them dessert after a meal for slapping their mother across the face.
MOUNT VERNON, Ky. — A Kentucky father was arrested after police say he made his kids do strenuous workouts as punishment for breaking house rules,
"strenuous workouts" is now an arrest-worthy form of child abuse.
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You're just looking at the headline... it says elsewhere "Kidwell – who is 5ft 6in and weighs 320lbs - allegedly left a bruise on his son's chest after punching him." (Daily Mail).
Punishing your child is one thing, but that punch could've been a lethal blow. So that's probably why he's getting arrested.
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You're just looking at the headline... it says elsewhere "Kidwell – who is 5ft 6in and weighs 320lbs - allegedly left a bruise on his son's chest after punching him." (Daily Mail).
Punishing your child is one thing, but that punch could've been a lethal blow. So that's probably why he's getting arrested.
Nope, I read the entire article. They are citing the pushups and the leaning against the wall as being part of the charges. And just because the punch left a mark doesn't mean it was a potentially lethal blow. Just because the guy is big and strong doesn't mean he hit him hard enough to cause damage. If he had hauled off with everything he had, he probably would have broken something. He clearly did not. When I spank my kids, it'll leave redness on their behind. What's funny is that, when my wife spanks one of the little kids, they walk away laughing. So I'll say, "Well, how about if I spank you." ... they immediately respond and start begging for mercy :laugh1:. I'm sorry, but it has to hurt a bit to be any kind of deterrent for bad behavior. I RARELY have to spank my kids anymore. Because they've felt it a few times, I rarely have to do more than threaten it before they immediately comply.
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Normally I would agree with you kids need corporal punishment, but I don’t think that’s all that goes on here. Punching is different than spanking, and a red mark is different than a bruise. I’ve been punched in the chest enough like that it feels like you’re going to die. Your heart skips beats, and you can’t catch your breath. This wasn’t parenting it was bullying.
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I should have called the MPs on my drill sergeants. ::)
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When I opened the link there was only a mugshot of the father and no text. How old was the son? Half an hour of pushups sounds like sadism to me. Normally the demand should be for a set number of pushups, but even for an adult 30 minutes is too much.
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I misread the OP. IT was YOUR coaches who were making you do more than 30 minutes pushups, Ladi. Still, it's sadism, in my humble opinion.
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When I opened the link there was only a mugshot of the father and no text.
MOUNT VERNON, Ky. — A Kentucky father was arrested after police say he made his kids do strenuous workouts as punishment for breaking house rules, WKYT (https://www.wkyt.com/content/news/Police-Kentucky-father-punished-kids-by-forcing-them-to-do-push-ups-for-30-minutes-straight-505024761.html) reports.
James Pal Kidwell, 40, of Mount Vernon, is charged with first-degree child abuse.
Kidwell is accused of forcing his children, 11 and 13, to do push-ups for half an hour straight.
Kidwell is also accused of making the two kids eat soap. One of the kids had a sore in his mouth from the soap.
According to police, one of the children had a bruise on his chest from a punch.
Police said Kidwell would also make the kids lean forward, with their foreheads against a wall, for up to 30 minutes.
Kidwell was arrested Monday and is being held under a $10,000 bond. He was still in jail as of Tuesday afternoon, according to the Rockcastle County Detention Center website (http://www.rockcastlecountydetention.com/Rockcastle_inmate_list.html).
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Thank you, Mater! Yes, definitely a sadist!
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Who turned in the father?
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The problem isn't so much that this man was arrested for abuse -- as it is likely he is an abusive father, considering the punch to the chest. The problem is that this story will settle in the sanguine mind of the average idiot American that he was arrested for being "mean" and therefore 'it is now against the law to be mean to your kidz." THAT is the problem.
Since this was in Kentucky, I can't say what is normal and abnormal for punishing boys of that age. I have relatives in Mississippi where they still take them outside a shed and use a switch.
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(https://localtvwtvr.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/kidwell.jpg?quality=85&strip=all&w=400&h=225&crop=1)
Let's just say he's not a fitness instructor or a bodybuilder. At this early stage, I think they made the right call going by the physical evidence of abuse. More than anything, he's got the look of a super insecure weirdo who traded in trying to overcome that insecurity with inflicting pain on others a long time ago. Could easily graduate from here to murderer/serial killer.
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You guys need to look at the bigger picture. Pretty soon they'll be arresting Traditional Catholics for subjecting their children to any form of discipline.
In years past, and currently in the State of Ohio still, unless there's actually lasting damage caused to a child, it's not considered "abuse" where the state would intervene.
These are small steps towards removing the authority that parents have over there children.
So now every time a child has a red mark on his chest, the father can be arrested? Red mark? Big deal. And who cares what the guy "looks" like? If he was out of control, there would be signs of physical harm other than a red mark.
I think you need to wake up to what's going on.
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The problem isn't so much that this man was arrested for abuse -- as it is likely he is an abusive father, considering the punch to the chest. The problem is that this story will settle in the sanguine mind of the average idiot American that he was arrested for being "mean" and therefore 'it is now against the law to be mean to your kidz." THAT is the problem.
Since this was in Kentucky, I can't say what is normal and abnormal for punishing boys of that age. I have relatives in Mississippi where they still take them outside a shed and use a switch.
You get the prize. Where's the line here? Reasonable line used to be if there was lasting damage / harm done to the child. Red mark? What the heck is that? It didn't even say it was a bruise. If it was the least bit a hard blow, it wouldn't be red but black and blue. If the guy had hauled off out of control, he likely would have broken something. Most of my kids will get red on the face if they sleep on a pillow.
Also, if this man WERE an "abusive" father, there'd be more to see than a red mark on the chest. Who's to define the line between discipline and abuse? Many now consider ANY corporal punishment to be "abuse".
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(https://localtvwtvr.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/kidwell.jpg?quality=85&strip=all&w=400&h=225&crop=1)
Let's just say he's not a fitness instructor or a bodybuilder. At this early stage, I think they made the right call going by the physical evidence of abuse. More than anything, he's got the look of a super insecure weirdo who traded in trying to overcome that insecurity with inflicting pain on others a long time ago. Could easily graduate from here to murderer/serial killer.
So now people should be arrested based on what they look like? Looks can be very deceiving. To me, he looks like he could just be a guy who wants to teach discipline to his sons. What's wrong with that?
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Most of the objections on this thread are from women, which is understandable since it's in the nature of women to nurture and be overprotective of children. But boys aren't children and they need men to guide/discipline them; they can't be nurtured/protected forever - or else they'll never learn to be men...a fact which happens all too often in our society and is a consequence of both feminism and the acceptance of single mothers. There are HUNDREDS of videos on youtube which explain why single mothers can't raise a boy to be a man. You can't give what you don't have.
Secondly, yes, this is both an over-reach of the police-state and also an attack on fatherhood/masculinity/american independence/the family.
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I've actually known two Traditional Catholic couples, where the wife initiated divorce proceedings, and then used the fact that the father had spanked his children for allegations of "abuse" ... as leverage in the proceedings (even though they THEMSELVES had also spanked the children). And in a divorce proceeding, since it's not a criminal proceeding, the allegation sticks, because it's entirely at the discretion of the (usually feminist female) judge. They're deliberately trying to strip fathers of their authority over their family.
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Most of the objections on this thread are from women, which is understandable since it's in the nature of women to nurture and be overprotective of children. But boys aren't children and they need men to guide/discipline them; they can't be nurtured/protected forever - or else they'll never learn to be men...a fact which happens all too often in our society and is a consequence of both feminism and the acceptance of single mothers. There are HUNDREDS of videos on youtube which explain why single mothers can't raise a boy to be a man. You can't give what you don't have.
Secondly, yes, this is both an over-reach of the police-state and also an attack on fatherhood/masculinity/american independence/the family.
Absolutely right on both counts. Boys need to be toughened up ... to a point. That's why drill sergeants do what they do. That's why coaches do what they do. Again, I've had coaches subject me to more than what this guy did. Boys NEED that toughness and discipline to become men. Yes, there's a line that can be crossed over into abuse, but it's not for the state to decide. If there's a question, fathers should consult with a learned priest. What's next? If I have a boy who's 50 pounds overweight, and I want to restrict his calories so that he gets into shape, will that be the next "abuse"? Where's the line? And who's entitled to draw it? An increasingly liberal-leftist state that will consider it abuse to raise your voice to an unruly child but not abuse to teach them all kinds of sɛҳuąƖ perversions in school?
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So now people should be arrested based on what they look like? Looks can be very deceiving. To me, he looks like he could just be a guy who wants to teach discipline to his sons. What's wrong with that?
Looks alone aren't enough to convict and he's only been arrested, but if the article can be taken literally when it stated he forced his kids to "eat soap" instead of merely placing it in their mouths for a fixed amount of time without swallowing, coupled with the other signs of extreme punishments. 30 minutes of pushups only for adults, let alone kids, who presumably haven't built up to that level of fitness is a guaranteed muscle pull if not worse and I'd be interested to see upon further investigation if these kids have long term damage to their growing bodies as a result of these kinds of outlandishly protracted physical "exercises" which are really just instruments of torture. So yeah, I think they're definitely onto something with this guy and no, any reasonable human being wouldn't go to those absurd lengths to discipline their children.
I can tell he's not that bright, so maybe he has that going for him as a defense. Maybe he'll beat the rap.
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Looks alone aren't enough to convict and he's only been arrested, but if the article can be taken literally when it stated he forced his kids to "eat soap" instead of merely placing it in their mouths for a fixed amount of time without swallowing, coupled with the other signs of extreme punishments. 30 minutes of pushups only for adults, let alone kids, who presumably haven't built up to that level of fitness is a guaranteed muscle pull if not worse and I'd be interested to see upon further investigation if these kids have long term damage to their growing bodies as a result of these kinds of outlandishly protracted physical "exercises" which are really just instruments of torture. So yeah, I think they're definitely onto something with this guy and no, any reasonable human being wouldn't go to those absurd lengths to discipline their children.
I can tell he's not that bright, so maybe he has that going for him as a defense. Maybe he'll beat the rap.
Well, don't ask for help when they arrest you for spanking your kids. I've had coaches go to more "absurd lengths" to whip me into shape. And obviously you've never been in the military. I had a school principal make me do "nose touches" (a very difficult and painful variant on a pushup). My parents once made me kneel for an hour. I've known Traditional Catholics who did the same for their kids. Perhaps they too should be arrested for "torturing" their children. Where is the line and who draws it ... contrary to the authority of fathers and parents in general over their children?
This reminds me of that little "First they came ..." thing written by the Lutheran minister (just ignore the Jєωιѕн propaganda aspect for now)
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jєωs, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jєω.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
First they came for those who used switches or paddles. Then they came for the spankers. Then they came for those who yelled at their children. Then they came for those who disapproved of their children changing genders. Then they came for those who caused psychological harm to their children by teaching them about hell.
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A woman’s instinct shouldn’t be discredited because she’s a woman. I wouldn’t punish my kids to the extent of forcing them to actually eat soap, or punching them. That’s not parenting, that’s bullying. It’s also a huge difference then what the Bible would condone. Human dignity is a thing, and I’d you treat a child without such they don’t turn out the way you.
1)push ups is a good punishment, but excessive over 30 minutes at that age.
2) placing soap in mouth is fine. My daughter had it done yesterday. Forcing to eat it is not.
3) spanking is fine, but should it leave bruises. Bruises are different from red marks.
4) having someone kneel as a punishment isn’t wrong, but age should be taken into account. Obviously adding rice to kneel it would be the wrong add in.
Punishment shouldn’t be out of anger, but love.
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Well, don't ask for help when they arrest you for spanking your kids. I've had coaches go to more "absurd lengths" to whip me into shape. And obviously you've never been in the military.
This reminds me of that little "First they came ..." thing written by the Lutheran minister (just ignore the Jєωιѕн propaganda aspect for now)
If anyone was spanking their kids for 30 minutes, they'd better be prepared to answer for it if they got caught doing it! They also better have a light touch to be doing that for 30 straight minutes or else how does one come away from that without drawing blood?
This wasn't just a couple of pushups or a set of ten or a set of one hundred. This isn't the idea of a pushup or soap in the mouth as abuse in and of itself. It speaks to reason that one has to factor in duration along with everything else here. Question is how on earth did this man go about making them do the all those pushups? How many they did they do in that space of time? What kind of damage resulted?
Ingesting soap is non-toxic in small amounts, but in larger amounts it can become a problem. Putting soap in the mouth is supposed to affect the tongue in harmless fashion, since when is it okay to make kids actually eat it so that affects their digestive system? That's abuse guys. It's not the worst thing in the world, but it's pretty bad and a solid indication that there something seriously wrong and probably only the tip of the iceberg.
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As for the details about this story --
First of all, very few people could do push-ups for 30 minutes straight without breaks. At some point you reach simple "muscle failure" and simply can't do it anymore. Ask anyone who's done weight training at the gym. You do a certain number repetitions, and then you reach muscle failure. If you go hard enough, you can barely lift the empty bar anymore. No amount of will-power can make you do another rep. And there's no lasting damage from reaching muscle failure. That can cause the body to build more muscle for next time out. There are many fitness tests out there that make you do pushups to failure (how many can you do in a row?) This resourceful father was not only disciplining his boys, but developing fitness and stamina. I've known coaches (even to this day) who run their kids so hard they're almost throwing up. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, as the saying goes.
Leaning against the wall with your forehead ... not that big of a deal. Just a more uncomfortable variant on standing in the corner. That's the entire point of punishment as a deterrent ... it SHOULD hurt some and be uncomfortable. If it doesn't, it's no deterrent at all.
Red mark on the chest? Big deal. No indication of it having turned black and blue (some tissue damage). You can get redness, with sensitive skin, from just a little push. If he had hauled off on the kid with his full might, the kid would have been hurt more than that. I had a teacher who used to regularly punch boys in the arm in class, hard enough that it hurt. But none of us minded. We actually felt like big guys when he did that. We liked it. It's like that old practice when kids used to get paddled, where the kid was supposed to respond: "Thank you, sir, may I have another?" It teaches you to take punishment like a man, with toughness, and while maintaining respect. Ladies do not understand this aspect of boys at all. Women personalize everything, whereas boys do NOT. Boys can get into a fist-fight and then go out an eat ice cream together five minutes later without any hard feelings. That's why the discipline of boys should be done by their fathers. Pax also made this point well in his post. At the same, time, however, I do feel that fathers should not administer corporal punishment to their girls (that should be left to their wives). Not that they have no right to; I just think it best not to ... to instill in them the notion that men should treat ladies with respect.
In the good old days, boys used to brag about taking a licking from their dad, almost as if it were a badge of honor, a testament to their toughness. They didn't wallow in effeminate "victimhood". Women/girls on the other hand, take it personally, and it's an emotional thing for them. But as long as the boy realizes that the father (or coach or other male authority figure) is doing it for their good, and with love, rather than just losing control ... the boy will actually RESPECT the toughness. Now these effeminate millennials all wallow in self-pity and victimhood. So this type of thing is also another chapter in the societal wussification of boys and men ... at the insistence of women. That's why boys who are raised by single mothers or "sensitive" fathers, turn into effeminate wussies.
Eating soap (presumably for bad language or talking back). How much soap was forced to be ingested? Five bars or just a relatively-small shaving. Did this "eating" mean that they were forced to actually swallow and ingest it? Even then, how much?
Most of this sounds like a total crock. Burns, broken bones, open wounds, lots of black-and-blue marks, enough soap eaten (of the right kind) to cause poisoning. Sure, that's abuse. But what's described here is a joke.
Then someone asked: Who turned the guy in? Was it a wife who doesn't like him using it for leverage in a planned divorce (as she's having an affair)? I actually know a couple women who did exactly that. Was it the kids? Did they call the cops? Did they report him at their school? Or did the kids just talk at school and get overheard by some busy-body teacher. Maybe the boys didn't even mind but were almost bragging about it to their friends. "Yeah, I got busted [doing this or that], and my dad made me do pushups for half an hour." Have we turned this into a child- and female- run police state? I've actually heard of kids threatening their parents with calling the cops if they tried to spank them ... completely undermining the parents' ability to discipline them.
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A woman’s instinct shouldn’t be discredited because she’s a woman. I wouldn’t punish my kids to the extent of forcing them to actually eat soap, or punching them. That’s not parenting, that’s bullying.
Discounted, no. But women don't understand boys and need to leave the father to handle it, and stay out of it. You can't project your female sensibilities on boys without ruining them. If there's a line crossed with a potential lasting harm or damage, take it to a priest. What is "bullying" to a woman or girl, is interpreted as "toughening" up and disciplining to a man. Why do you think those drill sergeants in the armed forces "bully around" the soldiers? It's to toughen them up to fight like men.
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At a first glance, of course it's insane to arrest a father for making his kids do push-ups as punishment. That's an excellent punishment - it discourages the behaviour while also making them stronger. But combined with the other details, like the punch and the soap-eating, it makes me wonder what the more specific details are. I don't think anyone bar maybe Bruce Lee types are going to be able to do push-ups 30 minutes non-stop, the kids probably would've reached failure after only a couple minutes. So the question is did he just make them continue on as soon as they were able to again, or did he punish them whenever they hit failure(which they would've done many, many times in a 30 min period) and/or force them to continue on to excess at risk of injury?
But anyway, it's sort of irrelevant. While I definitely agree that there's a slippery slope and that we should avoid ceding any ground(for an example of where that leads us, police have come and reprimanded parents for leaving their children walk unaccompanied around GATED neighbourhoods 20 feet from their house - ridiculous!), I don't know if this specific case is an example of that. Hitting an older boy isn't in-and-of itself abuse, but the location and nature of it(punch to the chest) makes it sound more like it came from anger than from discipline. That combined with the soap-eating and the wildly excessive length of the pushups makes me think this father was a bit of a wacko, and that was probably apparent to the police investigating the case. The parts the media choose to emphasise may not be the same as the main issues brought up in the police investigation, which would have undoubtedly included some sort of character evaluation.
Anyway, those are just my 2 cents. Regardless, I do appreciate and agree with your bringing this up. It's important we pay attention to this kind of stuff, because the slippery slope is very, very real and we should always be on the watch for it. Even in cases like this where it's not so clear-cut, in fact these are the MOST important cases to be keeping a watch on. Because that's how they get approval for setting a precedent that they can then extended ad absurdum.
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police have come and reprimanded parents for leaving their children walk unaccompanied around GATED neighbourhoods 20 feet from their house - ridiculous!
I've actually heard stories of parents getting their children taken away by CPS for this very kind of thing.
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1. No one, not even a bodybuilder can do push-ups for 30 straight minutes. So the article is an exaggeration.
2. Eating soap isn’t gonna kill anyone, unless you believe it’ll turn you blind like the “Christmas Story” movie. At worst, it’s a laxative, haha.
3. Spanking doesn’t leave marks. If it does, it’s no longer a spanking but a beating. I agree with the earlier poster - my Dad had to use the belt on me only like 2x and I got the point. I never crossed the line again. Same thing for spankings.
It used to be common in households up until the 80s to spank, make kids taste soap, and other physical punishments....most of which were handed out by MOMS.
(One lady told me her Father would make his children hold books with outstretched arms for 5 minutes at a time, til their arms were worn out. They got the hint).
America is now a bunch of pansies. Why do you think ѕυιcιdє rates are through the roof, there are counselors/police at schools and people are given “mental health” days off? Because people are mentally weak and give up too easily. (This is what the elites/joos want...people who won’t/can’t fight back and/or organize to resist tyranny, both spiritual and natural).
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America is now a bunch of pansies.
THIS ^^^
And ... there's an agenda afoot as well to destroy the authority of parents in general, and fathers in particular, over their children (and of course the authority of husbands over their entire families, including their wives). Ultimately, since all authority comes from God, it's an attack against the authority of God Himself by the forces of Satan. And this episode here is yet another minor skirmish in the wider war.
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1. No one, not even a bodybuilder can do push-ups for 30 straight minutes. So the article is an exaggeration.
Indeed, a person would reach simple "muscle failure" before any harm would happen to him.
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Indeed, a person would reach simple "muscle failure" before any harm would happen to him.
Muscle tears, ligament tears, all sorts of injuries result from trying to get in one more rep past failure. Again, I'd be very interested to know if there was any evidence of this. At least we can all agree that as stated, the punishment is way overboard. Clearly, the man doesn't maintain a similar discipline for his own body.
Physical correction does less and less to curb behavior as kids grow older. It seems that the opposite effect takes hold after a certain age and rebellion sets in. It's my experience that the same people who brag about getting thrown across the room by their father are also usually the same ones who brag about their sins. Maybe they got lucky and it wasn't a regular occurence and maybe their father made sure to pray with them more than he punished them. Somehow, I am getting the impression that this is not the case here.
I appreciate the slippery slope aspect of this, I just wish that in this particular matter we had a less problematic example to go on.
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Push ups are nothing. My prep-school teachers made us do push ups when we were misbehaving ( as my all-guys prep school had a military element) We even did them outside with our hands on the pavement when it was extremely hot. That being said, punching a kid in the chest is unacceptable. If they are being especially obnoxious, whip them with a belt. A father who punches his son in the chest probably lacks self control.
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Muscle tears, ligament tears, all sorts of injuries result from trying to get in one more rep past failure.
It doesn't sound like you've ever spent any time at the gym. Nothing's going to tear. You just won't be able to do it. Period. That's what failure means.
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Push ups are nothing. My prep-school teachers made us do push ups when we were misbehaving ( as my all-guys prep school had a military element) We even did them outside with our hands on the pavement when it was extremely hot. That being said, punching a kid in the chest is unacceptable. If they are being especially obnoxious, whip them with a belt. A father who punches his son in the chest probably lacks self control.
It all depends on how hard he hit them. If he had been out of control, a punch to the chest would have caused more damage that some red skin.
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It's my experience that the same people who brag about getting thrown across the room by their father are also usually the same ones who brag about their sins.
Utter nonsense; there's no link whatsoever between bragging about being "tough" and being cavalier about sin. In fact, many who brag about being tough physically will transition that attitude over to being tough spiritually (take St. Ignatius as an example). Whether one considers sin something to brag about is entirely independent of bragging about being tough.
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It doesn't sound like you've ever spent any time at the gym. Nothing's going to tear. You just won't be able to do it. Period. That's what failure means.
The near occasion of sin that constitutes hitting a unisex gym or the needless exposure to ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs in all-male gyms I avoid like the plague. I do, however, have a regular exercise routine that I perform at home so I know what you're referring to. You wouldn't be able to complete the rep, but you could pull the muscle easily at any point while attempting to do the next one and yes, that has happened to me. Pushups like most exercises you can do without equipment involve multiple muscle groups and body structures, so lots of things can go wrong. Muscle failure can easily occur mid rep and if you're not careful you can easily hurt yourself. For those who are on a regular routine, they can develop inflammation from overdoing it (too many sets or doing it wrong) which could leave them vulnerable to injury the next time... this is common knowledge!
It happens occasionally even to pro bodybuilders, who can skip right over pulling or minor tearing and rip entire tendons or ligaments off the bone. If you're working out under normal circuмstances and you know proper form and you know when to listen to your body then it won't be a problem, but when you've got someone terrorizing you to keep going it's more than possible. You're not putting yourself in the shoes of young kids who wouldn't know better, who wouldn't know what proper form is necessarily, and who might make the effort to push past failure because they are more terrified of their father than they are of hurting themselves.
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Utter nonsense; there's no link whatsoever between bragging about being "tough" and being cavalier about sin. In fact, many who brag about being tough physically will transition that attitude over to being tough spiritually (take St. Ignatius as an example). Whether one considers sin something to brag about is entirely independent of bragging about being tough.
Sure, because bragging about toughness is the result of godless pride and is a sure sign there's more vanity where that came from. We're all human so at a certain level there is always going to be some of that lurking around. But on these forums I expect much more of a capacity for introspection and humility. When all you know or care about is surface level quid-pro-quo, it isn't uncommon to find a background of abuse. When an irreligious father mindlessly torments his children for the sake of pure anger or hatred (no devotion to God), he's beating into them the same principles he operates from. Growing up and surviving the many tests of childhood, good or evil is commendable, but bragging about the sins of the father without the proper context (he was wrong and why he was wrong), there's no clear indication of what the right behavior is.
So we admire ourselves for being at the receiving end of someone's brutality but we didn't suffer it for Christ's sake and we don't bother thinking about how we could turn that into a spiritual good for ourselves and the assailants, it would be better we never mentioned it at all because there's nothing spiritually edifying to be had.
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The near occasion of sin that constitutes hitting a unisex gym or the needless exposure to ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs in all-male gyms I avoid like the plague.
Fair enough.
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I do, however, have a regular exercise routine that I perform at home so I know what you're referring to. You wouldn't be able to complete the rep, but you could pull the muscle easily at any point while attempting to do the next one and yes, that has happened to me. Pushups like most exercises you can do without equipment involve multiple muscle groups and body structures, so lots of things can go wrong. Muscle failure can easily occur mid rep and if you're not careful you can easily hurt yourself.
Well, that's not my experience. One you fail you fail. Could you fail mid-rep? Sure. But falling to the ground from 2 feet up isn't going to injure anyone. In any case, pushups have been used as punishment by the military, by coaches, etc. since time began. I doubt that anyone's ever been hurt doing pushups to the point of muscle failure. If that guy was able to have his boys do pushups for 30 mintues straight, they now have the potential to be Olympic champions; that's an extraordinary feat.
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Sure, because bragging about toughness is the result of godless pride and is a sure sign there's more vanity where that came from.
I don't think so. It's just a natural male instinct ... to want to be tough. Grace perfects nature and does not destroy it. Your push towards introspection sounds very much like the soft millennials who are in touch with their feelings. While introspection is a good thing, it shouldn't be at the expense of laying aside masculine instincts, and you don't want to turn boys into effeminate wusses like the millenials. Boys by nature are rough and tumble, and bragging about being tough is an outward sign of their quest to become strong men.
Yes, outward aggressiveness isn't a virtue in adults, but that same kind of things in boys should be sublimated (to borrow a term from modern psychology) into interior toughness and strength. Boys shouldn't offset these instincts by pitting them against emotion, but rather tame them with their higher faculties as their intellects and wills mature.
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I don't think so. It's just a natural male instinct ... to want to be tough. Grace perfects nature and does not destroy it. Your push towards introspection sounds very much like the soft millennials who are in touch with their feelings. While introspection is a good thing, it shouldn't be at the expense of laying aside masculine instincts, and you don't want to turn boys into effeminate wusses like the millenials. Boys by nature are rough and tumble, and bragging about being tough is an outward sign of their quest to become strong men.
Yes, outward aggressiveness isn't a virtue in adults, but that same kind of things in boys should be sublimated (to borrow a term from modern psychology) into interior toughness and strength. Boys shouldn't offset these instincts by pitting them against emotion, but rather tame them with their higher faculties as their intellects and wills mature.
Grace does build on nature, but it is not a grace to act on fallen nature first, which is precisely what godless men do when they act on almost anything. Everything becomes an instrument of sinful desires. When it comes to building up natural graces, in this case building on physical fitness, it is either ordered properly under supernatural grace, or it isn't. Most people who devote their lives to this kind of activity do not have spiritual aims in mind and as a result it becomes a vehicle for vanity, impurity, revenge, violence for it's own sake, you get the picture.
There's a reason why the Catholic Church doesn't have a plethora of saints who had advanced fitness/bodybuilding regimens. In fact I'm having a hard time thinking of just one! Fasting and other deprivations abound, but the idea of getting stronger muscles is so far down the priority list that it hardly factors at all. Bodybuilding does not naturally lead one to the Faith anymore than playing sports for a living or becoming proficient in any particular discipline does. These skills can become useful only when the soul is determined to conform itself to God, until then they will usually serve as an impediment. It makes sense because it why bother with God when you're so good at achieving your material needs and wants. Arnold Schwarzenegger for example has so many barriers to Heaven as a direct result of allowing his fallen nature to inform the course of his life, that he'd probably be better off had he never picked up his first dumbell.
Never workout more than you pray is the rule of thumb I go by. If those kids were praying with their father more than 30 minutes a day, which is far more than the average is anyway, and they were Catholic, then I might be prone to give the father some slack. But since by all indications he is a typical mess, the sooner he is broken down, the sooner he might allow supernatural grace to take root.
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Well, that's not my experience. One you fail you fail. Could you fail mid-rep? Sure. But falling to the ground from 2 feet up isn't going to injure anyone. In any case, pushups have been used as punishment by the military, by coaches, etc. since time began. I doubt that anyone's ever been hurt doing pushups to the point of muscle failure. If that guy was able to have his boys do pushups for 30 mintues straight, they now have the potential to be Olympic champions; that's an extraordinary feat.
A 30 minute period for one exercise suggests to me multiple sets of working to near failure and with each subsequent set, the cushion between an active muscle failing without injury decreases. That's taking into consideration that the proper form is used, which rapidly falls apart the closer you get to absolute failure. Then you have to take into consideration ligament and joint problems. Rotator cuff injuries are much more likely than a grade 2 muscle strain in this case but ligament and joint issues are a lot tougher to overcome and heal from than purely muscular ones. A muscle injury is still possible though. I'd be interested to know if previous untreated injuries have damaged their full range of motion and overall strength, negating the positive effects for fitness to begin with.
Remember, this was a stated punishment. Presuming the father is only using exercise as a punishment and not as a healthy routine it places the risk for injury much higher. At 5'6 and 320 lbs, I'm not sure he has any working knowledge of basic fitness. For the sake of his children I hope there isn't any lasting damage.
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A 30 minute period for one exercise suggests to me multiple sets of working to near failure and with each subsequent set, the cushion between an active muscle failing without injury decreases. That's taking into consideration that the proper form is used, which rapidly falls apart the closer you get to absolute failure. Then you have to take into consideration ligament and joint problems. Rotator cuff injuries are much more likely than a grade 2 muscle strain in this case but ligament and joint issues are a lot tougher to overcome and heal from than purely muscular ones. A muscle injury is still possible though. I'd be interested to know if previous untreated injuries have damaged their full range of motion and overall strength, negating the positive effects for fitness to begin with.
These were teenagers. They have all the energy in the world and are in peak physical condition. Ever watch a football practice? No one's getting a rotator cuff injury from doing too many pushups at 18. Your arms give out way before your shoulders are even tired.
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These were teenagers. They have all the energy in the world and are in peak physical condition. Ever watch a football practice? No one's getting a rotator cuff injury from doing too many pushups at 18. Your arms give out way before your shoulders are even tired.
30 minutes pushup energy? Doubtful. All teenagers are in peak condition? No. Are those boys in sports? Unknown. No teenagers get rotator cuff injuries from pushups? Under normal circuмstances I would consider it very rare. Are these normal circuмstances? No. Pushups work the shoulders and chest more than the arms. Working to failure leads to fatigue which leads to bad form, which is what results in rotator cuff issues and the like.
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30 minutes pushup energy? Doubtful. All teenagers are in peak condition? No. Are those boys in sports? Unknown. No teenagers get rotator cuff injuries from pushups? Under normal circuмstances I would consider it very rare. Are these normal circuмstances? No. Pushups work the shoulders and chest more than the arms. Working to failure leads to fatigue which leads to bad form, which is what results in rotator cuff issues and the like.
Working to failure is how you improve endurance in any form of exercise. The likes of a rotator cuff injury are usually caused by poor form or muscle imbalances, and while the former is definitely much more likely when you're tired, it's not the tiredness itself causing the injury. When you hit failure in a push-up you'll just fall onto the floor. Nothing should be pulled unless you've started using poor form to try and pump out extra reps, which is the issue with forcing them to do it for 30 mins(since they'll be hitting failure many times and their form will be AWFUL by the time they finish). So I agree in the sense that the punishment was extreme in the sense that the length of the exercise was far too long and completely impractical, but the assertion that exercising to failure is bad for you is simply wrong. You should always AIM for failure or as close as possible to it to improve.
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Grace does build on nature, but it is not a grace to act on fallen nature first, which is precisely what godless men do when they act on almost anything.
There's nothing inherently godless about boys being "rough and tumble".
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Working to failure is how you improve endurance in any form of exercise. The likes of a rotator cuff injury are usually caused by poor form or muscle imbalances, and while the former is definitely much more likely when you're tired, it's not the tiredness itself causing the injury. When you hit failure in a push-up you'll just fall onto the floor. Nothing should be pulled unless you've started using poor form to try and pump out extra reps, which is the issue with forcing them to do it for 30 mins(since they'll be hitting failure many times and their form will be AWFUL by the time they finish). So I agree in the sense that the punishment was extreme in the sense that the length of the exercise was far too long and completely impractical, but the assertion that exercising to failure is bad for you is simply wrong. You should always AIM for failure or as close as possible to it to improve.
No, I agree with you about failure. Exercising to failure isn't bad necessarily, but you have to have some idea of what you're doing and how to go about doing it the right way. Considering the circuмstances I can easily see how it would be the wrong way to go for these guys. The kids aren't on a routine, they're being punished. If they were used to doing it, it wouldn't have the same effect and he'd probably have to come up with something else unpleasant. The father certainly doesn't look like he's into fitness himself, so maybe he doesn't know any better either.
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There's nothing inherently godless about boys being "rough and tumble".
I was specifically referring to fathers, potentially like this one, who fall over themselves trying to administer physical discipline while they themselves have no intention of raising holy children. This often backfires in the sense that they learn the wrong lessons and adapt to the father's own godless ways. If they internalize these things then become perfect physical specimens without the graces of God behind them, these "strengths" will effectively keep them from the real purpose in life: to know, love and serve God. Even the good that evil men think they do will be turned back on them.
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I've read multiple articles about this. The man kept the punishment going
up for a period of 5 days and one of the boys had rug burns. This wasn't healthy discipline.