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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Father Arrested for Making Boys Do Pushups for 30 Minutes
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2019, 09:44:46 AM »
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  • Most of the objections on this thread are from women, which is understandable since it's in the nature of women to nurture and be overprotective of children.  But boys aren't children and they need men to guide/discipline them; they can't be nurtured/protected forever - or else they'll never learn to be men...a fact which happens all too often in our society and is a consequence of both feminism and the acceptance of single mothers.  There are HUNDREDS of videos on youtube which explain why single mothers can't raise a boy to be a man.  You can't give what you don't have.

    Secondly, yes, this is both an over-reach of the police-state and also an attack on fatherhood/masculinity/american independence/the family. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Father Arrested for Making Boys Do Pushups for 30 Minutes
    « Reply #16 on: January 31, 2019, 09:46:02 AM »
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  • I've actually known two Traditional Catholic couples, where the wife initiated divorce proceedings, and then used the fact that the father had spanked his children for allegations of "abuse" ... as leverage in the proceedings (even though they THEMSELVES had also spanked the children).  And in a divorce proceeding, since it's not a criminal proceeding, the allegation sticks, because it's entirely at the discretion of the (usually feminist female) judge.  They're deliberately trying to strip fathers of their authority over their family.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Father Arrested for Making Boys Do Pushups for 30 Minutes
    « Reply #17 on: January 31, 2019, 09:53:01 AM »
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  • Most of the objections on this thread are from women, which is understandable since it's in the nature of women to nurture and be overprotective of children.  But boys aren't children and they need men to guide/discipline them; they can't be nurtured/protected forever - or else they'll never learn to be men...a fact which happens all too often in our society and is a consequence of both feminism and the acceptance of single mothers.  There are HUNDREDS of videos on youtube which explain why single mothers can't raise a boy to be a man.  You can't give what you don't have.

    Secondly, yes, this is both an over-reach of the police-state and also an attack on fatherhood/masculinity/american independence/the family.

    Absolutely right on both counts.  Boys need to be toughened up ... to a point.  That's why drill sergeants do what they do.  That's why coaches do what they do.  Again, I've had coaches subject me to more than what this guy did.  Boys NEED that toughness and discipline to become men.  Yes, there's a line that can be crossed over into abuse, but it's not for the state to decide.  If there's a question, fathers should consult with a learned priest.  What's next?  If I have a boy who's 50 pounds overweight, and I want to restrict his calories so that he gets into shape, will that be the next "abuse"?  Where's the line?  And who's entitled to draw it?  An increasingly liberal-leftist state that will consider it abuse to raise your voice to an unruly child but not abuse to teach them all kinds of sexual perversions in school?

    Offline Croixalist

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    Re: Father Arrested for Making Boys Do Pushups for 30 Minutes
    « Reply #18 on: January 31, 2019, 10:19:51 AM »
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  • So now people should be arrested based on what they look like?  Looks can be very deceiving.  To me, he looks like he could just be a guy who wants to teach discipline to his sons.  What's wrong with that?

    Looks alone aren't enough to convict and he's only been arrested, but if the article can be taken literally when it stated he forced his kids to "eat soap" instead of merely placing it in their mouths for a fixed amount of time without swallowing, coupled with the other signs of extreme punishments. 30 minutes of pushups only for adults, let alone kids, who presumably haven't built up to that level of fitness is a guaranteed muscle pull if not worse and I'd be interested to see upon further investigation if these kids have long term damage to their growing bodies as a result of these kinds of outlandishly protracted physical "exercises" which are really just instruments of torture. So yeah, I think they're definitely onto something with this guy and no, any reasonable human being wouldn't go to those absurd lengths to discipline their children.

    I can tell he's not that bright, so maybe he has that going for him as a defense. Maybe he'll beat the rap.
    Fortuna finem habet.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Father Arrested for Making Boys Do Pushups for 30 Minutes
    « Reply #19 on: January 31, 2019, 10:26:26 AM »
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  • Looks alone aren't enough to convict and he's only been arrested, but if the article can be taken literally when it stated he forced his kids to "eat soap" instead of merely placing it in their mouths for a fixed amount of time without swallowing, coupled with the other signs of extreme punishments. 30 minutes of pushups only for adults, let alone kids, who presumably haven't built up to that level of fitness is a guaranteed muscle pull if not worse and I'd be interested to see upon further investigation if these kids have long term damage to their growing bodies as a result of these kinds of outlandishly protracted physical "exercises" which are really just instruments of torture. So yeah, I think they're definitely onto something with this guy and no, any reasonable human being wouldn't go to those absurd lengths to discipline their children.

    I can tell he's not that bright, so maybe he has that going for him as a defense. Maybe he'll beat the rap.

    Well, don't ask for help when they arrest you for spanking your kids.  I've had coaches go to more "absurd lengths" to whip me into shape.  And obviously you've never been in the military.  I had a school principal make me do "nose touches" (a very difficult and painful variant on a pushup).  My parents once made me kneel for an hour.  I've known Traditional Catholics who did the same for their kids.  Perhaps they too should be arrested for "torturing" their children.  Where is the line and who draws it ... contrary to the authority of fathers and parents in general over their children?

    This reminds me of that little "First they came ..." thing written by the Lutheran minister (just ignore the Jewish propaganda aspect for now)

    Quote
    First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
        Because I was not a socialist.
    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
         Because I was not a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
         Because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

    First they came for those who used switches or paddles.  Then they came for the spankers.  Then they came for those who yelled at their children.  Then they came for those who disapproved of their children changing genders.  Then they came for those who caused psychological harm to their children by teaching them about hell.


    Offline Vintagewife3

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    Re: Father Arrested for Making Boys Do Pushups for 30 Minutes
    « Reply #20 on: January 31, 2019, 10:45:16 AM »
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  • A woman’s instinct shouldn’t be discredited because she’s a woman. I wouldn’t punish my kids to the extent of forcing them to actually eat soap, or punching them. That’s not parenting, that’s bullying. It’s also a huge difference then what the Bible would condone. Human dignity is a thing, and I’d you treat a child without such they don’t turn out the way you. 

    1)push ups is a good punishment, but excessive over 30 minutes at that age.

    2) placing soap in mouth is fine. My daughter had it done yesterday. Forcing to eat it is not.

    3) spanking is fine, but should it leave bruises. Bruises are different from red marks.

    4) having someone kneel as a punishment isn’t wrong, but age should be taken into account. Obviously adding rice to kneel it would be the wrong add in. 

    Punishment shouldn’t be out of anger, but love.

    Offline Croixalist

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    Re: Father Arrested for Making Boys Do Pushups for 30 Minutes
    « Reply #21 on: January 31, 2019, 10:45:57 AM »
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  • Well, don't ask for help when they arrest you for spanking your kids.  I've had coaches go to more "absurd lengths" to whip me into shape.  And obviously you've never been in the military.

    This reminds me of that little "First they came ..." thing written by the Lutheran minister (just ignore the Jewish propaganda aspect for now)

    If anyone was spanking their kids for 30 minutes, they'd better be prepared to answer for it if they got caught doing it! They also better have a light touch to be doing that for 30 straight minutes or else how does one come away from that without drawing blood?

    This wasn't just a couple of pushups or a set of ten or a set of one hundred. This isn't the idea of a pushup or soap in the mouth as abuse in and of itself. It speaks to reason that one has to factor in duration along with everything else here. Question is how on earth did this man go about making them do the all those pushups? How many they did they do in that space of time? What kind of damage resulted?

    Ingesting soap is non-toxic in small amounts, but in larger amounts it can become a problem. Putting soap in the mouth is supposed to affect the tongue in harmless fashion, since when is it okay to make kids actually eat it so that affects their digestive system? That's abuse guys. It's not the worst thing in the world, but it's pretty bad and a solid indication that there something seriously wrong and probably only the tip of the iceberg.
    Fortuna finem habet.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Father Arrested for Making Boys Do Pushups for 30 Minutes
    « Reply #22 on: January 31, 2019, 11:52:16 AM »
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  • As for the details about this story --

    First of all, very few people could do push-ups for 30 minutes straight without breaks.  At some point you reach simple "muscle failure" and simply can't do it anymore.  Ask anyone who's done weight training at the gym.  You do a certain number repetitions, and then you reach muscle failure.  If you go hard enough, you can barely lift the empty bar anymore.  No amount of will-power can make you do another rep.  And there's no lasting damage from reaching muscle failure.  That can cause the body to build more muscle for next time out.  There are many fitness tests out there that make you do pushups to failure (how many can you do in a row?)  This resourceful father was not only disciplining his boys, but developing fitness and stamina.  I've known coaches (even to this day) who run their kids so hard they're almost throwing up.  What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, as the saying goes.

    Leaning against the wall with your forehead ... not that big of a deal.  Just a more uncomfortable variant on standing in the corner.  That's the entire point of punishment as a deterrent ... it SHOULD hurt some and be uncomfortable.  If it doesn't, it's no deterrent at all.

    Red mark on the chest?  Big deal.  No indication of it having turned black and blue (some tissue damage).  You can get redness, with sensitive skin, from just a little push.  If he had hauled off on the kid with his full might, the kid would have been hurt more than that.  I had a teacher who used to regularly punch boys in the arm in class, hard enough that it hurt.  But none of us minded.  We actually felt like big guys when he did that.  We liked it.  It's like that old practice when kids used to get paddled, where the kid was supposed to respond:  "Thank you, sir, may I have another?"  It teaches you to take punishment like a man, with toughness, and while maintaining respect.  Ladies do not understand this aspect of boys at all.  Women personalize everything, whereas boys do NOT.  Boys can get into a fist-fight and then go out an eat ice cream together five minutes later without any hard feelings.  That's why the discipline of boys should be done by their fathers.  Pax also made this point well in his post.  At the same, time, however, I do feel that fathers should not administer corporal punishment to their girls (that should be left to their wives).  Not that they have no right to; I just think it best not to ... to instill in them the notion that men should treat ladies with respect.

    In the good old days, boys used to brag about taking a licking from their dad, almost as if it were a badge of honor, a testament to their toughness.  They didn't wallow in effeminate "victimhood".  Women/girls on the other hand, take it personally, and it's an emotional thing for them.  But as long as the boy realizes that the father (or coach or other male authority figure) is doing it for their good, and with love, rather than just losing control ... the boy will actually RESPECT the toughness.  Now these effeminate millennials all wallow in self-pity and victimhood.  So this type of thing is also another chapter in the societal wussification of boys and men ... at the insistence of women.  That's why boys who are raised by single mothers or "sensitive" fathers, turn into effeminate wussies.

    Eating soap (presumably for bad language or talking back).  How much soap was forced to be ingested?  Five bars or just a relatively-small shaving.  Did this "eating" mean that they were forced to actually swallow and ingest it?  Even then, how much?

    Most of this sounds like a total crock.  Burns, broken bones, open wounds, lots of black-and-blue marks, enough soap eaten (of the right kind) to cause poisoning.  Sure, that's abuse.  But what's described here is a joke.

    Then someone asked:  Who turned the guy in?  Was it a wife who doesn't like him using it for leverage in a planned divorce (as she's having an affair)?  I actually know a couple women who did exactly that.  Was it the kids?  Did they call the cops?  Did they report him at their school?  Or did the kids just talk at school and get overheard by some busy-body teacher.  Maybe the boys didn't even mind but were almost bragging about it to their friends.  "Yeah, I got busted [doing this or that], and my dad made me do pushups for half an hour."  Have we turned this into a child- and female- run police state?  I've actually heard of kids threatening their parents with calling the cops if they tried to spank them ... completely undermining the parents' ability to discipline them.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Father Arrested for Making Boys Do Pushups for 30 Minutes
    « Reply #23 on: January 31, 2019, 11:55:11 AM »
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  • A woman’s instinct shouldn’t be discredited because she’s a woman. I wouldn’t punish my kids to the extent of forcing them to actually eat soap, or punching them. That’s not parenting, that’s bullying.

    Discounted, no.  But women don't understand boys and need to leave the father to handle it, and stay out of it.  You can't project your female sensibilities on boys without ruining them.  If there's a line crossed with a potential lasting harm or damage, take it to a priest.  What is "bullying" to a woman or girl, is interpreted as "toughening" up and disciplining to a man.  Why do you think those drill sergeants in the armed forces "bully around" the soldiers?  It's to toughen them up to fight like men.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Father Arrested for Making Boys Do Pushups for 30 Minutes
    « Reply #24 on: January 31, 2019, 12:56:38 PM »
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  • At a first glance, of course it's insane to arrest a father for making his kids do push-ups as punishment. That's an excellent punishment - it discourages the behaviour while also making them stronger. But combined with the other details, like the punch and the soap-eating, it makes me wonder what the more specific details are. I don't think anyone bar maybe Bruce Lee types are going to be able to do push-ups 30 minutes non-stop, the kids probably would've reached failure after only a couple minutes. So the question is did he just make them continue on as soon as they were able to again, or did he punish them whenever they hit failure(which they would've done many, many times in a 30 min period) and/or force them to continue on to excess at risk of injury? 

    But anyway, it's sort of irrelevant. While I definitely agree that there's a slippery slope and that we should avoid ceding any ground(for an example of where that leads us, police have come and reprimanded parents for leaving their children walk unaccompanied around GATED neighbourhoods 20 feet from their house - ridiculous!), I don't know if this specific case is an example of that. Hitting an older boy isn't in-and-of itself abuse, but the location and nature of it(punch to the chest) makes it sound more like it came from anger than from discipline. That combined with the soap-eating and the wildly excessive length of the pushups makes me think this father was a bit of a wacko, and that was probably apparent to the police investigating the case. The parts the media choose to emphasise may not be the same as the main issues brought up in the police investigation, which would have undoubtedly included some sort of character evaluation. 

    Anyway, those are just my 2 cents. Regardless, I do appreciate and agree with your bringing this up. It's important we pay attention to this kind of stuff, because the slippery slope is very, very real and we should always be on the watch for it. Even in cases like this where it's not so clear-cut, in fact these are the MOST important cases to be keeping a watch on. Because that's how they get approval for setting a precedent that they can then extended ad absurdum.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Father Arrested for Making Boys Do Pushups for 30 Minutes
    « Reply #25 on: January 31, 2019, 01:34:41 PM »
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  • police have come and reprimanded parents for leaving their children walk unaccompanied around GATED neighbourhoods 20 feet from their house - ridiculous!

    I've actually heard stories of parents getting their children taken away by CPS for this very kind of thing.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Father Arrested for Making Boys Do Pushups for 30 Minutes
    « Reply #26 on: January 31, 2019, 01:51:43 PM »
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  • 1.  No one, not even a bodybuilder can do push-ups for 30 straight minutes.  So the article is an exaggeration.

    2.  Eating soap isn’t gonna kill anyone, unless you believe it’ll turn you blind like the “Christmas Story” movie.  At worst, it’s a laxative, haha.  

    3.  Spanking doesn’t leave marks.  If it does, it’s no longer a spanking but a beating.  I agree with the earlier poster - my Dad had to use the belt on me only like 2x and I got the point.  I never crossed the line again.  Same thing for spankings.  

    It used to be common in households up until the 80s to spank, make kids taste soap, and other physical punishments....most of which were handed out by MOMS.

    (One lady told me her Father would make his children hold books with outstretched arms for 5 minutes at a time, til their arms were worn out.  They got the hint).

    America is now a bunch of pansies.  Why do you think suicide rates are through the roof, there are counselors/police at schools and people are given “mental health” days off?  Because people are mentally weak and give up too easily.  (This is what the elites/joos want...people who won’t/can’t fight back and/or organize to resist tyranny, both spiritual and natural).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Father Arrested for Making Boys Do Pushups for 30 Minutes
    « Reply #27 on: January 31, 2019, 02:15:08 PM »
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  • America is now a bunch of pansies.

    THIS ^^^

    And ... there's an agenda afoot as well to destroy the authority of parents in general, and fathers in particular, over their children (and of course the authority of husbands over their entire families, including their wives).  Ultimately, since all authority comes from God, it's an attack against the authority of God Himself by the forces of Satan.  And this episode here is yet another minor skirmish in the wider war.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Father Arrested for Making Boys Do Pushups for 30 Minutes
    « Reply #28 on: January 31, 2019, 02:16:03 PM »
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  • 1.  No one, not even a bodybuilder can do push-ups for 30 straight minutes.  So the article is an exaggeration.
     
    Indeed, a person would reach simple "muscle failure" before any harm would happen to him.

    Offline Croixalist

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    Re: Father Arrested for Making Boys Do Pushups for 30 Minutes
    « Reply #29 on: January 31, 2019, 07:41:48 PM »
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  • Indeed, a person would reach simple "muscle failure" before any harm would happen to him.

    Muscle tears, ligament tears, all sorts of injuries result from trying to get in one more rep past failure. Again, I'd be very interested to know if there was any evidence of this. At least we can all agree that as stated, the punishment is way overboard. Clearly, the man doesn't maintain a similar discipline for his own body.

    Physical correction does less and less to curb behavior as kids grow older. It seems that the opposite effect takes hold after a certain age and rebellion sets in. It's my experience that the same people who brag about getting thrown across the room by their father are also usually the same ones who brag about their sins. Maybe they got lucky and it wasn't a regular occurence and maybe their father made sure to pray with them more than he punished them. Somehow, I am getting the impression that this is not the case here.

    I appreciate the slippery slope aspect of this, I just wish that in this particular matter we had a less problematic example to go on.
    Fortuna finem habet.

     

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