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Offline Thed0ctor

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Family advice for ivf relative
« on: June 24, 2019, 07:24:07 PM »
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  • Hey all, I’ll try to make this brief. I have a gay “married” sister who recently underwent IVF and had a kid through that method. I’ve stated my stance on her lifestyle and am wondering whether it’s morally “licit” to give any form of affirmation of having the kid at all. I don’t want her to think she should have aborted the child or anything but also don’t want the method used to be affirmed. Any advice would be helpful. I can also provide more details if needed. I’m also wondering how involved (if at all) I should be in the child’s life.

    Offline songbird

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    Re: Family advice for ivf relative
    « Reply #1 on: June 24, 2019, 08:20:51 PM »
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  • Everything she is doing is of Satan.  Totally she is doing all wrong in the eyes of God.  The best anyone can do is to have the baby baptized and the sister must agree to that.  That poor child!


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Family advice for ivf relative
    « Reply #2 on: June 24, 2019, 08:34:02 PM »
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  • Even though the means was immoral, the poor child was a victim.  You should treat the child well.  If her own ovum was used, it would be fine to refer to her as the child's mother and the child as her daughter.  Yet you can never treat them as if the two Lesbians are married or that the other one is a "mother" by marriage.

    My wife had a roommate in college who came out later as a Lesbian.  At the time, she told her, "Well, I have to tell you what I think about your lifestyle ... but I still care about you."  She said it in a compassionate way, and the woman completely understood and did not get irate or combative.  Perhaps that little seed is there and more effectively planted than if my wife had stood up on a chair, pointed her finger, and exclaimed, "God hates fags." (like that one Prot group).  While one should not actively condone the immorality, St. Thomas also lays out rules for when one should (or even should not) "rebuke the sinner".  It depends in large part whether you perceive that the rebuke would enlighten them or harden them more in their sin.  It's a question or prudence.  I would not visit their home and be "received" by them as if they were some kind of couple, but then I would have the same approach to a couple of cohabitating heterosexual fornicators.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Family advice for ivf relative
    « Reply #3 on: June 24, 2019, 09:10:04 PM »
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  • Don't put up with it!

    Fight back by Spiritually "nuking" your sister.

    Send a prayer stipend to the Irish Carmelites asking them to storm Heaven for her conversion and save the child's soul too.

    Reverend Mother Prioress of the Holy Face O.Carm
    Holy Family Carmelite Hermitage
    Corran South
    Leap
    Co. Cork
    P81NX02
    mobile 0871727493

    One way or another, she will learn a big lesson and it will all work out Providentially.

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Family advice for ivf relative
    « Reply #4 on: June 24, 2019, 09:34:09 PM »
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  • Great advice by Ladislaus and Incredulous.


    Quote
    I would not visit their home and be "received" by them as if they were some kind of couple, but then I would have the same approach to a couple of cohabitating heterosexual fornicators.
    The only thing I would add to the above is that you should also not invite the "couple" into your home or to family events.  If your sister/daughter want to come, that's fine; but the mother-girlfriend cannot be accepted at such a public party.  Same goes for an unmarried co-habitating hetero couple.  The point is that you cannot condone public sin.


    Offline Thed0ctor

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    Re: Family advice for ivf relative
    « Reply #5 on: June 26, 2019, 08:35:24 PM »
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  • Thanks everyone for the advice and input thus far. Since she just gave birth is saying “congratulations” be appropriate or would that be also affirming the means by which the child was conceived? 

    Also what about going to family gatherings where they are already invited or going to the child’s birthday party or something in the future? My wife and I are also about to have a child so want to weigh that in as well. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Family advice for ivf relative
    « Reply #6 on: June 27, 2019, 11:06:23 AM »
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  • Great advice by Ladislaus and Incredulous.

    The only thing I would add to the above is that you should also not invite the "couple" into your home or to family events.  If your sister/daughter want to come, that's fine; but the mother-girlfriend cannot be accepted at such a public party.  Same goes for an unmarried co-habitating hetero couple.  The point is that you cannot condone public sin.

    Right.  You basically cannot create or participate in circumstances which imply that the two are a married couple.  They cannot be received as such or treated as such.  As you mention, they can be received individually.  I don't see why you couldn't receive the woman who actually gave birth with her daughter ... since that doesn't inherently condone the circumstances under which she was conceived, but I would not welcome the non-birth-giving partner with the daughter,  since that implies she has a certain motherhood over her which would only be there via the fake "marriage".

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Family advice for ivf relative
    « Reply #7 on: June 27, 2019, 11:14:22 AM »
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  • Thanks everyone for the advice and input thus far. Since she just gave birth is saying “congratulations” be appropriate or would that be also affirming the means by which the child was conceived?

    Also what about going to family gatherings where they are already invited or going to the child’s birthday party or something in the future? My wife and I are also about to have a child so want to weigh that in as well.

    I'm not sure about congratulations, since it doesn't necessarily condone everything about the experience.  As long as you make it clear that you disapprove of what she did and how she did it, she could take that in context.  Now, I wouldn't say it out in public (just to her in private, assuming that she knows you don't approve).  Saying it in public might cause scandal in that it might imply approval or condonement, whereas said to her as an individual who knows your position, it would not have that danger.

    If they are invited as a couple to said family gatherings, then I would not go because it implies interacting with them as a couple.  Just think, if everyone excluded them as a couple from "family" gatherings, that would put some pressure on them and make it clear that no one approves.  The more they carry on in an illusion of social "normalcy", the more complacent they become in their sin.


    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Family advice for ivf relative
    « Reply #8 on: June 27, 2019, 04:46:39 PM »
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  • I agree with all the wisdom extended here but I have a question.
    What would be advisable if invited (by both women) to the child's Baptism?  And what if the uncle was asked to be Godfather?
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Family advice for ivf relative
    « Reply #9 on: June 27, 2019, 05:20:23 PM »
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  • I agree with all the wisdom extended here but I have a question.
    What would be advisable if invited (by both women) to the child's Baptism?  And what if the uncle was asked to be Godfather?
    If the mother, who obviously is not a Catholic, chooses to baptize the child, no Catholic worth his salt should/could/would attend such a mockery of the sacrament.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Family advice for ivf relative
    « Reply #10 on: June 27, 2019, 05:39:57 PM »
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  • Right.  You basically cannot create or participate in circumstances which imply that the two are a married couple.  They cannot be received as such or treated as such.  As you mention, they can be received individually.  I don't see why you couldn't receive the woman who actually gave birth with her daughter ... since that doesn't inherently condone the circumstances under which she was conceived, but I would not welcome the non-birth-giving partner with the daughter,  since that implies she has a certain motherhood over her which would only be there via the fake "marriage".
    Frankly, I think that the Catholic should not invite the miscreant to their house. It would be much better to meet at a neutral location. If the individual shows some signs of repentance, then it may be advisable to receive them with the proviso that the Catholic doesn’t have young children that could ask questions about the situation and thus cause scandal.


    Offline songbird

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    Re: Family advice for ivf relative
    « Reply #11 on: June 27, 2019, 09:03:12 PM »
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  • The couple will catch on when only one is invited.  So, don't be surprised if things escalate.  Hold your position.  

    Offline Thed0ctor

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    Re: Family advice for ivf relative
    « Reply #12 on: June 27, 2019, 10:27:49 PM »
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  • I'm not sure about congratulations, since it doesn't necessarily condone everything about the experience.  As long as you make it clear that you disapprove of what she did and how she did it, she could take that in context.  Now, I wouldn't say it out in public (just to her in private, assuming that she knows you don't approve).  Saying it in public might cause scandal in that it might imply approval or condonement, whereas said to her as an individual who knows your position, it would not have that danger.

    If they are invited as a couple to said family gatherings, then I would not go because it implies interacting with them as a couple.  Just think, if everyone excluded them as a couple from "family" gatherings, that would put some pressure on them and make it clear that no one approves.  The more they carry on in an illusion of social "normalcy", the more complacent they become in their sin.
    So same would apply if the couple invited us to the child’s birthday party or some other public celebration correct?

    Offline Rmichaelj

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    Re: Family advice for ivf relative
    « Reply #13 on: July 08, 2019, 05:40:55 PM »
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  • One thing to realize, inviting only one of them to an event or your home might sound ok, but in reality odds are that at some point they will test you and both will show up.  Same thing if you go to a family function that you aren't in charge of but they are also invited.  No matter what you say- they will assume you are ok with their relationship.   

    Sorry for this cross you have to bear- I have a similar situation with a "divorced and remarried" sibling and it basically means my family is ostracized by and from most of my extended family because I won't allow them as a couple in my house.  The silver lining is that it keeps my kids away from a lot of other objectionable behavior/dress/beliefs. It also keeps away a lot of drama.  I'll put in a decade for you.

     

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