Author Topic: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved? (Read 5871 times)

ascanio1 · « **on:** November 19, 2019, 11:16:57 AM »

Can a Christian Orthodox be saved if he/she was baptized in the Christian Orthodox rite?

forlorn · « **Reply #1 on:** November 19, 2019, 11:26:56 AM »

Quote from: ascanio1 on November 19, 2019, 11:16:57 AM

Can a Christian Orthodox be saved if he/she was baptized in the Christian Orthodox rite?

Well the baptism is valid, but the sin of schism separates them from the Church. You'll find on this forum that they absolutely cannot be saved lest they convert, but the vast majority of even Trad clergy think they can. I don't know how exactly they justify that belief in the face of EENS, but there you have it.

Matto · « **Reply #2 on:** November 19, 2019, 11:33:15 AM »

I believe that no they can not be saved, except for the children and those who convert to Catholicism. But we do not all agree.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #3 on:** November 19, 2019, 11:34:15 AM »

Quote from: forlorn on November 19, 2019, 11:26:56 AM

Well the baptism is valid, but the sin of schism separates them from the Church. You'll find on this forum that they absolutely cannot be saved lest they convert, but the vast majority of even Trad clergy think they can. I don't know how exactly they justify that belief in the face of EENS, but there you have it.

"The vast majority of even the Trad clergy" (let alone the Novus Ordo and maybe like 99% of Catholics today) also believe that people in any religion can be saved if they are good:

Bishop Bernard Fellay, Conference in Denver, Co., Feb. 18, 2006: “We know that there are two other baptisms, that of desire and that of blood. These produce an invisible but real link with Christ but do not produce all of the effects which are received in the baptism of water… And the Church has always taught that you have people who will be in heaven, who are in the state of grace, who have been saved without knowing the Catholic Church. We know this. And yet, how is it possible if you cannot be saved outside the Church? It is absolutely true that they will be saved through the Catholic Church because they will be united to Christ, to the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. It will, however, remain invisible, because this visible link is impossible for them. Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to heaven.” (The Angelus, “A Talk Heard Round the World,” April, 2006, p. 5.)

ByzCat3000 · « **Reply #4 on:** November 19, 2019, 11:34:20 AM »

Quote from: forlorn on November 19, 2019, 11:26:56 AM

Well the baptism is valid, but the sin of schism separates them from the Church. You'll find on this forum that they absolutely cannot be saved lest they convert, but the vast majority of even Trad clergy think they can. I don't know how exactly they justify that belief in the face of EENS, but there you have it.

IF they aren’t sufficiently culpable for the sin of schism than they are in fact inside the Church, and they are in fact Catholics, but only God knows for sure.
But yeah I know where most of this Forum stands on this and I know that non of even the Trad clergy really agree with them. Ladislaus seems to be well read and have some seminary training so I’d take his opinions somewhat seriously but given the combination of the fact that feeneyism is widely rejected, even among trads, and the fact that it doesn’t really stand up to basic reason, I think it’s far more likely not to be the correct interpretation .
Of course, if an EO knows that submission to the pope was made necessary by Christ, or had enough information that he ought to have known, or has enough information that he ought to have researched further but refuses to do so out of fear or human respect or any other reason, he could not be saved.

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #5 on:** November 19, 2019, 11:39:09 AM »

Quote from: ascanio1 on November 19, 2019, 11:16:57 AM

Can a Christian Orthodox be saved if he/she was baptized in the Christian Orthodox rite?

“Christian Orthodox” is a contradiction in terms.

But yes, if validly baptized, and they die before the age of reason, they would be saved (but note that they would have been joined to the Catholic Church by the fact of being in the state of grace, despite not being members of the visible Church).

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #6 on:** November 19, 2019, 11:45:18 AM »

Quote from: ByzCat3000 on November 19, 2019, 11:34:20 AM

but given the combination of the fact that feeneyism is widely rejected, even among trads, and the fact that it doesn’t really stand up to basic reason, I think it’s far more likely not to be the correct interpretation .

1) In my long experience, everyone that calls people who read the dogmas on EENS as they are written "Feeneyites", upon constant badgering for details, will all end up revealing their real belief that anyone can be saved in any religion, something which no Father, Doctor or Saint ever believed

2) How does reading all the dogmas as they are written, what you call "it" , "really does not stand up to basic reasoning", when all those that call people Feeneyites believe that anyone can be saved, an idea that goes directly against all the dogmas on EENS and was never taught by any Father, Doctor or Saint? If anything does not stand up to basic reasoning it is the belief that anyone can be saved in any religion.

"For there shall be a time when they will not endure sound doctrine but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." (2Tim 4).

…. the living character of Tradition, which, as the Second Vatican Council clearly taught, "comes from the apostles and progresses in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. There is a growth in insight into the realities and words that are being passed on. This comes about in various ways. It comes through the contemplation and study of believers who ponder these things in their hearts. It comes from the intimate sense of spiritual realities which they experience. (John Paul II, Ecclesia Dei #4)

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #7 on:** November 19, 2019, 11:55:17 AM »

https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/dogmatic-decrees-we-will-interpret-them-to-our-desires/

Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires

St. Augustine: “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.’ There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief.” (On the Soul and Its Origin 3, 13)

Here are excerpts from some dogmas on EENS and how they are responded to (in red) by those who teach that Jєωs, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists, indeed person in all false religions, can be saved by their belief in a god the rewards. Enjoy.

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jєωs or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire ..and that nobody can be saved, … even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ[/b], unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” [/color](pagans and Jєωs can be saved by their belief in a god that rewards, thus they are in the Church. They can’t be saved even if they shed their blood for Christ, but they can be saved by a belief in a god that rewards.)[/size][/color]

Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, …(Persons in all false religions can be part of the faithful by their belief in a God that rewards)

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
“… this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, … every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Persons in all false religions by their belief in a God that rewards are inside the Church, so they can have remission of sin. They do not have to be subject to the Roman Pontiff because they do not even know that they have to be baptized Catholics, why further complicate things for tem with submission to the pope?)

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:
“… one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…” (one lord, one faith by their belief in a God that rewards, and one invisible baptism by, you guessed it, their belief in a god that rewards)

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:
“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.” ( the Catholic faith is belief in a God that rewards)

Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
“For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.” ( Just pick a few from the above excuses, from here on it’s a cake walk, just create your own burger with the above ingredients. You’ll be an expert at it in no time.)

Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Iniunctum nobis, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”

Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”

Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”

Council of Trent, Session VI (Jan. 13, 1547)
Decree on Justification,
Chapter IV.

A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.

By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5). (this means you do not need to be baptized or have a desire to be baptized. You can be baptized invisible by desire or no desire, you can call no desire implicit desire, you can also receive water baptism with no desire, no, wait a minute that does not go in both directions, it only works for desire or if you have no desire at all. Come to think of it, just forget about all of it, persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards.)

Chapter VII.

What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.

This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which no man was ever justified;(except all persons in false religions, they can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards)

Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church. And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]. The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.” (Just ignore that language, all persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards)

Council of Trent. Seventh Session. March, 1547. Decree on the Sacraments.
On Baptism

Canon 2. If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of our Lord Jesus Christ: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5), are distorted into some metaphor: let him be anathema.( any persons in false religions can be invisible baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)

Canon 5. If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema (the pope is also speaking here of the invisible baptism of persons in false religions that are baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943: “Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith.”( the laver of regeneration can be had invisible and the true faith is belief in a god that rewards)

Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei (# 43), Nov. 20, 1947: “In the same
way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all
Christians, and serves to differentiate them from those who
have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and
consequently are not members of Christ
orders sets the priest apart from the rest of the faithful who
have not received this consecration.” ( person who believe in a god that rewards do not need the mark, but they are in the Church. Somehow)

(Oh, I forgot, no one mentions it anymore, it is now out of fashion, so I did not include it above, invincible ignorance. If you are old fashioned, just throw in a few invinble ignorants up there with the rest of the ingredients)

Stubborn · « **Reply #8 on:** November 19, 2019, 12:20:34 PM »

Quote from: ByzCat3000 on November 19, 2019, 11:34:20 AM

IF they aren’t sufficiently culpable for the sin of schism than they are in fact inside the Church, and they are in fact Catholics, but only God knows for sure.

On the contrary, they are sufficiently culpable for the sin of schism to earn an eternity in hell, this is because they have all the time right now while they are in this world to use the brain and the use of reason that God gave them so that they would devote the time and effort to find out the truth. The choice is the same for them as for the rest of us - if they seek the truth, they will find the truth - then they have to live according to the truth the same as the rest of us. We are all the same in this regard. But since they choose to not seek the truth - they *will* suffer the consequences of being wrong.

Schism is a mortal sin, and whoever dies in that sin, it is the same as it is with any other mortal sin(s), they *will* go to hell forever. While they *might* have less culpability then some others, they, like us all, will be judged according to God's word, His teachings and His laws - all of which He left with His Church which is the only place to find truth and live according to it - which is why outside of that Church, there is no salvation. They certainly will not be saved according to their own idea of what they determine or think should be acceptable to God.

"But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required." Luke 12:48

God says right here that if you don't know, you're still going to get it, He never said that if you don't know, you're innocent. If they aren't sufficiently culpable, then the best course for us all to take, is that of complete and total ignorance. In which case, ignorance truly would be bliss - the more ignorant, the better.

ascanio1 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 19, 2019, 12:51:19 PM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican on November 19, 2019, 11:34:15 AM

"The vast majority of even the Trad clergy" (let alone the Novus Ordo and maybe like 99% of Catholics today) also believe that people in any religion can be saved if they are good:

Bishop Bernard Fellay, Conference in Denver, Co., Feb. 18, 2006: “We know that there are two other baptisms, that of desire and that of blood. These produce an invisible but real link with Christ but do not produce all of the effects which are received in the baptism of water… And the Church has always taught that you have people who will be in heaven, who are in the state of grace, who have been saved without knowing the Catholic Church. We know this. And yet, how is it possible if you cannot be saved outside the Church? It is absolutely true that they will be saved through the Catholic Church because they will be united to Christ, to the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. It will, however, remain invisible, because this visible link is impossible for them. Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to heaven.” (The Angelus, “A Talk Heard Round the World,” April, 2006, p. 5.)

I see. Some belive that salvation "in desire" or "because ignorant of the existance of the Church", is possible.

ascanio1 · « **Reply #10 on:** November 19, 2019, 12:55:00 PM »

Quote from: ByzCat3000 on November 19, 2019, 11:34:20 AM

IF they aren’t sufficiently culpable for the sin of schism than they are in fact inside the Church, and they are in fact Catholics, but only God knows for sure.
But yeah I know where most of this Forum stands on this and I know that non of even the Trad clergy really agree with them. Ladislaus seems to be well read and have some seminary training so I’d take his opinions somewhat seriously but given the combination of the fact that feeneyism is widely rejected, even among trads, and the fact that it doesn’t really stand up to basic reason, I think it’s far more likely not to be the correct interpretation .
Of course, if an EO knows that submission to the pope was made necessary by Christ, or had enough information that he ought to have known, or has enough information that he ought to have researched further but refuses to do so out of fear or human respect or any other reason, he could not be saved.

You mean that salavtion could be possible in case of "ignorance in good faith, without negligence"?

What does "EO" stand for?

ascanio1 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 19, 2019, 12:58:41 PM »

Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 19, 2019, 11:39:09 AM

“Christian Orthodox” is a contradiction in terms.

But yes, if validly baptized, and they die before the age of reason, they would be saved (but note that they would have been joined to the Catholic Church by the fact of being in the state of grace, despite not being members of the visible Church).

You also draw the line at:
the ability to reason
knowledge of
non-negligence

forlorn · « **Reply #12 on:** November 19, 2019, 12:59:21 PM »

Quote from: ascanio1 on November 19, 2019, 12:55:00 PM

You mean that salavtion could be possible in case of "ignorance in good faith, without negligence"?

What does "EO" stand for?

EO is Eastern Orthodox.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #13 on:** November 19, 2019, 01:06:14 PM »

Quote from: ascanio1 on November 19, 2019, 12:51:19 PM

I see. Some belive that salvation "in desire" or "because ignorant of the existance of the Church", is possible.

I don't see desire in the Hindu quote by Fellay. What about original sin? Was the Hindu immaculately conceived? How does a Hindu remove original sin to be in a state of sanctifying grace without baptism?

"Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to heaven.” (The Angelus, “A Talk Heard Round the World,” April, 2006, p. 5.)

ascanio1 · « **Reply #14 on:** November 19, 2019, 01:06:36 PM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican on November 19, 2019, 11:55:17 AM

Here are excerpts from some dogmas on EENS and how they are responded to (in red) by those who teach that Jєωs, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists, indeed person in all false religions, can be saved by their belief in a god the rewards. Enjoy.

My OP pertains only to baptized Christians, who are outside the Catholic Church.

But, from the depths of my ignorance, I agree with you... if it were so simple (*) to be saved, why would Jesus die on the cross to save us from sin? Would it not be easier to let all humanity live in ignorance and implied desire and let them all be saved?
(*) baptism "in desire" or "in ignorance"

Author Topic: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved? (Read 5871 times)

ascanio1

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?

forlorn

Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?

Matto

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Last Tradhican

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ByzCat3000

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SeanJohnson

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Last Tradhican

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Last Tradhican

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Stubborn

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ascanio1

Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?

ascanio1

Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?

ascanio1

Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?

forlorn

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Last Tradhican

Re: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - can an Orthodox be saved?

ascanio1

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