Author Topic: Errors and/or heresies taught by doctors of the Church  (Read 493 times)

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Offline tornpage

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Errors and/or heresies taught by doctors of the Church
« on: November 06, 2017, 09:03:45 PM »
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  • There have been 36 doctors of the Church. A list of them is here:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_the_Church

    Have any of them taught heresy or something that contradicted a dogma of the faith?

    Have any of them taught some lesser error?

    And I do not mean took a position on something that, when they taught, was not defined or settled, or which was subject to debate.

    "[L]et us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is 'one God, one faith, one baptism' [Eph. 4:5]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry."

    Pope Pius IX, Singulari quadem

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Errors and/or heresies taught by doctors of the Church
    « Reply #1 on: November 06, 2017, 09:10:35 PM »
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  • There are only 29 Doctors of the Church.


    Offline tornpage

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    Re: Errors and/or heresies taught by doctors of the Church
    « Reply #2 on: November 06, 2017, 09:16:12 PM »
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  • There are only 29 Doctors of the Church.

    Yes. Exclude those made doctors by the heretical anti-popes. Thanks. I guess it's 29 then. 

    Among the 29. 
    "[L]et us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is 'one God, one faith, one baptism' [Eph. 4:5]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry."

    Pope Pius IX, Singulari quadem

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Errors and/or heresies taught by doctors of the Church
    « Reply #3 on: November 17, 2017, 12:38:24 PM »
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  • There have been 36 doctors of the Church. A list of them is here:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_the_Church

    Have any of them taught heresy or something that contradicted a dogma of the faith?

    Have any of them taught some lesser error?

    And I do not mean took a position on something that, when they taught, was not defined or settled, or which was subject to debate.

    According to Church history all the Fathers taught the Scriptures revealed a geocentric universe.

    The Council of Trent said it was heresy to deny any unanimous teaching of all the Fathers.

    Based on this unanimous interpretation the Church of 1616 decreed to contradict this and say the Bible could be read heliocentrically was formal heresy.

    In 1820-35, through the Holy Office, headed by popes, they decided such a reading of Scripture by all the Fathers was deemed an ERROR.

    Not a year goes by since then that does not keep repeating how all the Fathers got their bible reading wrong.

    No doubt all the Doctors taught the same 'ERROR', such as Thomas Aquinas and Cardinal Bellarmine.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Errors and/or heresies taught by doctors of the Church
    « Reply #4 on: November 17, 2017, 01:39:12 PM »
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  • According to Church history all the Fathers taught the Scriptures revealed a geocentric universe.

    The Council of Trent said it was heresy to deny any unanimous teaching of all the Fathers.

    Based on this unanimous interpretation, the Church of 1616 decreed to contradict this and say the Bible could be read heliocentrically was formal heresy.

    In 1820-35, through the Holy Office, headed by popes, they decided such a reading of Scripture by all the Fathers was deemed an ERROR.

    Not a year goes by since then that does not keep repeating how all the Fathers got their bible reading wrong.

    No doubt all the Doctors taught the same 'ERROR', such as Thomas Aquinas and Cardinal Bellarmine.
    .
    Are you sure you don't mean "material heresy" -- that saying the Bible could be read heliocentrically was material heresy?
    .
    For it to be formal heresy, it would have to be clear that the Church's geocentrism was first recognized, and then rejected.
    .
    That is, all they had to do was to not recognize geocentrism while they go on applying the principles of heliocentrism.
    .
    That is, they would have to say, "I realize the Church has always taught geocentrism, but I'm here to tell you that's all wrong, because I have a new teaching here, heliocentrism" in order to be formal heretics. However, if they were to make no mention of geocentrism and instead go around explaining the principles of heliocentrism like, "We can see in our telescope how the sun is so much larger and so much heavier than the the earth and all the planets which is why the planets orbit around their central anchor in space, which is the sun..." then they could escape the stigma of "formal" heresy.
    .
    Perhaps the modern novelties of recent popes are following the same pattern that was developed in 1616 when people like Galileo (who became blind by looking at the sun in his telescope) only had to pretend not to recognize what the Church had always taught so they could go around muttering their novelty as if it was a discovery or just the latest fashion in thinking. Pierre Teilhard de Chardin passed around his "Clandestines" which contained traditional Catholic terminology used in entirely new ways, so that by repetitious novelty he gradually infused a new meaning into old words. He experimented with changing minds through changing language.
    .
    Along comes Paul VI and JPII who endeavored to change the way the Church does everything while they pretended to pay no attention to the longstanding norms that had been in place -- they simply started up something new. They wrote novelties and they practiced novelties, without so much as recognizing what they would be leaving behind.
    .
    Of course, there were exceptions. There were times when the way things had been were specifically forbidden, such as when Paul VI punished priests who persisted in offering the Traditional Latin Mass when he was trying to implement the Novus Ordo. Another exception is Benedict XVI's hermeneutic of continuity, which basically denies sane thinking.
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    Offline cassini

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    Re: Errors and/or heresies taught by doctors of the Church
    « Reply #5 on: November 19, 2017, 01:23:09 PM »
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  • Are you sure you don't mean "material heresy" -- that saying the Bible could be read heliocentrically was material heresy?
    .
    For it to be formal heresy, it would have to be clear that the Church's geocentrism was first recognized, and then rejected.
    .
    That is, all they had to do was to not recognize geocentrism while they go on applying the principles of heliocentrism.
    .

    First of all Neil what I tried to do was to get a reaction from tornpage. I wanted to hear his reaction to the fact that churchmen have insisted since 1741 at least that Doctors like St Thomas, St Bellarmine and St Hildegard who wrote about a geocentric creation were WRONG in their beliefs. In truth, no Doctor ever contradicted a tenet of the Catholic faith.

    In 1616 Pope Paul V decreed that heliocentrism was formal heresy. In 1633 Pope Urban VIII confirmed this decree and had Galileo tried for heresy. But then came the scam 'proofs' for heliocentrism and churchmen, including popes, believed them true and the 1616 false. It is this incident that infers Doctors and Fathers of the Church got it wrong.

    In 1822 the Holy Office -- while acknowledging the 1616 decree WAS IRREVERSIBLE - issued another decree, actually applying penalties for not allowing the publication of books presenting the motion of the Earth as a logical conclusion of science (and presumably therefore as the correct reading of Scripture):

    ‘The most excellent [Holy Office] have decreed that there must be no denial, by the present or by future Masters of the Sacred Apostolic Palace, of permission to print and to publish works which treat of the mobility of the Earth and of the immobility of the sun, according to the common opinion of modern astronomers, as long as there are no other contrary indications, on the basis of the decrees of the Sacred Congregation of the Index of 1757 and of this Supreme [Holy Office] of 1820; and that those who would show themselves to be reluctant or would disobey, should be forced under punishments at the choice of [this] Sacred Congregation, with derogation of [their] claimed privileges, where necessary.’

    So, any Catholic who defended the 1616 decree and condemned the heliocentric order as heresy WAS TO BE PUNISHED.

    Now back to your question Neil, one of the most important questions never addressed in the last 300 years of catholic teaching.

    What happened was a total loss of faith by the heliocentrists from the popes down. This, in spite of those trying to defend the irreversible 1616 decree like Fr Filippo Anfossi (1748-1825) Master of the Sacred Palace, Rome, 1820.

    Now a 'material heretic' is someone who has no intention of contradicting a dogma in their opinion. Given popes of that time were totally convinced that heliocentrism was a scientific fact, they believed they had no option but to dismiss and ignore the 1616 decree. Yet there were those of the time insisting the Catholic Church, when a pope makes a definitive decree on a matter of faith, CANNOT BE WRONG. but in this case EVEN THE ELECT believed the lies in spite of this Church teaching. To get them out of this HERESY they cheated, twisted and insisted by way of PUNISHMENT on those who held to the truth of 1616, that what was decreed as formal heresy was TO BE BELIEVED in 1820 as we see above.

    Today, when the dogs in the street KNOW that heliocentrism is not proven even popes still believe in the heretical heliocentrism.as we know heresy of any kind is of no concern of theirs.

    No doubt when all go before their God they will all plea material heresy and probably get away with it. The fact that they had more faith in science than Pope Paul V's decree shows how weak Catholic faith has become in the last 300 years.

    Then again anyone who knows for the last 100 years that the decree still stands and chooses to deny it, is he or she not guilty of deliberate formal heresy?



    Offline tornpage

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    Re: Errors and/or heresies taught by doctors of the Church
    « Reply #6 on: November 19, 2017, 04:27:35 PM »
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  • According to Church history all the Fathers taught the Scriptures revealed a geocentric universe.

    The Council of Trent said it was heresy to deny any unanimous teaching of all the Fathers.

    Based on this unanimous interpretation the Church of 1616 decreed to contradict this and say the Bible could be read heliocentrically was formal heresy.

    In 1820-35, through the Holy Office, headed by popes, they decided such a reading of Scripture by all the Fathers was deemed an ERROR.

    Not a year goes by since then that does not keep repeating how all the Fathers got their bible reading wrong.

    No doubt all the Doctors taught the same 'ERROR', such as Thomas Aquinas and Cardinal Bellarmine.
    Cassini,

    Did any doctor teach error or heresy that contradicted a previously defined dogma of the Church?

    I don't see any of that in your post. 

    Tornpage
    "[L]et us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is 'one God, one faith, one baptism' [Eph. 4:5]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry."

    Pope Pius IX, Singulari quadem

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Errors and/or heresies taught by doctors of the Church
    « Reply #7 on: November 20, 2017, 11:20:10 AM »
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  • Cassini,

    Did any doctor teach error or heresy that contradicted a previously defined dogma of the Church?

    I don't see any of that in your post.

    Tornpage

    Absolutely not tornpage, never.


    Offline tornpage

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    Re: Errors and/or heresies taught by doctors of the Church
    « Reply #8 on: November 20, 2017, 12:37:03 PM »
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  • Absolutely not tornpage, never.
    That's what I thought.

    For me this is a glaring hole in the "Feeneyite" position, which I formerly held and vigorously disputed for: that the same Church that wrote the documents of the Council of Trent would then elevate to doctor men who taught things (BOD) that come within Trent's anathemas - therefore taught heresy, according to some Feeneyite's readings of the texts of the Council. It's almost laughable to even say it. 

    The whole geocentrism/heliocentrism thing is fascinating and I'd like to take a deeper look at it.
    "[L]et us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is 'one God, one faith, one baptism' [Eph. 4:5]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry."

    Pope Pius IX, Singulari quadem

     

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