Author Topic: Ember Days (Read 2296 times)

OHCA · « **on:** September 13, 2010, 07:57:48 PM »

Keep in mind the fast and abstinence for the upcoming Ember Days. I believe it is this week--the Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday immediately following September 14. However, I saw something on FE that confused me by making it sound like the Ember Days must be at least a full week after September 14.

Does anybody know about this?

Also, I never have seen a full explanation about Ember Days. I have seen it asserted in "Father Smith Instructs Jackson," an old Catechism for adult converts (probably from the 1940s or 1950s), that the observances for the Ember Days should be offered for newly ordained priests.

Does anybody know about this?

BTW, I read that Catechism in my early teens--largely explains why I have known since an early age that the V-II changes and N.O. lack fullness.

CathMomof7 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 14, 2010, 09:51:54 AM »

Ugh, I had a post and lost it!

I will attempt to explain. I am new to traditional Catholicism and I am SSPX. We use the 1962 Missal and the September Ember days this year are Sep 22, 24, and 25. I wasn't aware they had "shifted" on the calendar until I did my own research.

Ember Days fall at 4 times in the Liturgical Calendar. They are meant to coincide with the change of seasons and Catholics are obligated to fast, offers prayers, thanksgiving, and alms for the poor. These days, of course, were adopted to help ease the Pagans into the Church and the Church used the Pagans affinity for celebrating the earth and harvest to help them focus on Our Lord and God's goodness and power over the universe.

In Feb, this year, they fall between the first and second Sundays of Lent.

In May, they fall after Pentecost Sunday, which this year was 26, 28, and 29.

In Sep, they fall on the Wed, Fri, and Sat AFTER the 3rd Sunday of the month.

In Dec, they fall between the 3rd and 4th week of Advent.

Now here's the confusion. Because the Exaltation of the Cross falls on Sept 14, most people assumed that the September Ember days are related to that Feast Day. They are not.

Up until the 1960s, for liturgical purposes the Church calculated the first Sunday of the month as the Sunday that was closest to the first day of the month. Let me explain. This year, Sept 1 was on a Wednesday. The Sunday closest to Sept 1 was actually August 29th. So, prior to 1960, August 29th would have been the 1st Sunday of Sept. Pope John XXIII found this calculation system confusing, so he changed it to what is obvious. The first Sunday of the month is the first Sunday of the month. In other words, this year the first Sunday of September was Sept 5. Since September Ember days fall on the Wed, Fri, and Sat AFTER the 3rd Sunday of the month, those days are the 22, 25, and 25.

I mention this here because I think many who follow the liturgical calendar of the 1950s claim that Pope John XXIII was just playing around with the liturgical calendar. He may have been, but in this case he had a legitimate argument---he wanted to simplify how Sundays are calculated. It just so happened that it affected Ember Days.

Hope that helps.

Cheryl · « **Reply #2 on:** September 14, 2010, 10:53:14 AM »

Quote from: OHCA

Keep in mind the fast and abstinence for the upcoming Ember Days. I believe it is this week--the Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday immediately following September 14. However, I saw something on FE that confused me by making it sound like the Ember Days must be at least a full week after September 14.

Does anybody know about this?

Also, I never have seen a full explanation about Ember Days. I have seen it asserted in "Father Smith Instructs Jackson," an old Catechism for adult converts (probably from the 1940s or 1950s), that the observances for the Ember Days should be offered for newly ordained priests.

Does anybody know about this?

BTW, I read that Catechism in my early teens--largely explains why I have known since an early age that the V-II changes and N.O. lack fullness.

Okay OCHA, I'll see if I can confuse you a little more. According to my Sede calendar, the Ember Days for September, start on Sept.14, The Feast of the Seven Sorrows of the Blessed Virgin Mary. This day is a partial fast, only meat at the main meal and the first two meals cannot contain meat or meat broths and the amount of food for the two meals combined
can only equal one meal. Next Ember Day, Friday, Sept. 17, fast and total abstinence. The last Ember Day, Saturday Sept.18. Fast and meat at the main meal, like it was on Wednesday. I pray that I didn't confuse you too much. A traditional church calendar of whichever Trad Church you go to, is a great help in keeping track of Ember Days, Feasts Days, etc.

God Bless

Elizabeth · « **Reply #3 on:** September 14, 2010, 11:01:50 AM »

Fasting has never been more important to accomplish!

PartyIsOver221 · « **Reply #4 on:** September 14, 2010, 04:27:30 PM »

Umm where is everyone seeing its on 22nd?

Ember Days coming up to fast are:

Wednesday - September 15, 2010
Friday (PLUS ABSTINENCE FROM MEAT) - September 17, 2010
Saturday - September 18, 2010

MyrnaM · « **Reply #5 on:** September 14, 2010, 04:44:49 PM »

same here, PartyIsOver!

OHCA · « **Reply #6 on:** September 14, 2010, 04:45:23 PM »

Thank you to CathMomof7 and Cheryl for the information. Ember days were something I missed out on growing up in a liberal N.O. parish.

Elizabeth, I completely agree with what you say about the importance of fasting.

I believe what was done with the Mass, fast and abstinence observances, etc., were done to make Catholics "blend in," perhaps particularly in the United States. Not sure the motive(s) for wanting to "blend in" at such a high cost--maybe politics, maybe attract converts, maybe combinaiton of this and/or other reasons. But I think they sure got it wrong.

People have never been attracted to, nor remained true to, Catholicism for the sake of "blending in" or because it is easy.

Fasting and other penance are important for general atonement, as well as personal self-discipline--the world certainly has a deficit in both categories.

OHCA · « **Reply #7 on:** September 14, 2010, 04:50:03 PM »

Quote from: PartyIsOver221

Umm where is everyone seeing its on 22nd?

Ember Days coming up to fast are:

Wednesday - September 15, 2010
Friday (PLUS ABSTINENCE FROM MEAT) - September 17, 2010
Saturday - September 18, 2010

CathMomof7 explained above why Ember Days are the following week. But you also allude to another point for which I have seen confusion as well--is meat allowed at the main meal on Wednesday and Saturday?

I have "The Catholic's Guide," 1946 Revised Edition, and I understand it to say complete fast and abstinence for all Ember Days.

PartyIsOver221 · « **Reply #8 on:** September 14, 2010, 05:02:31 PM »

Yes OCHA, it is my understanding that the abstinence from meat on Friday is related to the typical abstinence of meat on all Fridays of the year.

The only time meat is not abstained from entirely on Fridays is if a Holy Day of Obligation or Feast Day lands on the Friday. Ember Days aren't holy days of Obligation or Feast days.

Please correct me if I'm wrong , anyone.

Alexandria · « **Reply #9 on:** September 14, 2010, 05:06:49 PM »

Partial abstinence on Wednesday and Saturday; complete abstinence on Friday.

CathMomof7 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 14, 2010, 05:38:51 PM »

Quote from: PartyIsOver221

Umm where is everyone seeing its on 22nd?

Ember Days coming up to fast are:

Wednesday - September 15, 2010
Friday (PLUS ABSTINENCE FROM MEAT) - September 17, 2010
Saturday - September 18, 2010

The SSPX uses the liturgical calender from 1962. Please see my first post on this. If you are sede or independent you probably have a pre-1960 liturgical calendar where the September Ember days are immediately following the Exaltation of the Cross.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #11 on:** September 14, 2010, 08:36:59 PM »

I am confused because my Catholic calendar says differently, Ember Day being tomorrow.

I found this, not to prove I am right, just wondering why we have a difference in the days, and I still don't understand the why of it.

http://209.157.64.201/focus/f-religion/2587005/posts

CathMomof7 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 15, 2010, 10:38:07 AM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

I am confused because my Catholic calendar says differently, Ember Day being tomorrow.

I found this, not to prove I am right, just wondering why we have a difference in the days, and I still don't understand the why of it.

http://209.157.64.201/focus/f-religion/2587005/posts

Myrna,
I wanted to explain this better last night. I didn't get a chance, so I hope I can do so now. This confusion among traditional Catholics really concerns me. I worry that we cannot have unity until we can all at least get in the same Breviary.

Without getting into a huge argument about the changes certain Popes made to the Missal, the Missal changed many things in the time period between 1950 and 1960. Keeping this discussion on topic, one of the items that changed was the way in which the first Sunday of the month was calculated. This is significant because this little detail is what accounts for the confusion among trads regarding the September Ember days.

Since the 6th century, for liturgical purposes, the Church calculated the first Sunday of the month to be the first Sunday closest to the first day of the month. This really matters in August through November. For example, this year the first day of the month of September fell on Wednesday. The closest Sunday to the first was August 29th, so for liturgical purposes Aug 29th was the 1st Sunday of September. Since the Ember Days of September always fall on the Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday after the 3rd Sunday in September, this puts them, according to this calculation, falling on the W,F,andS after the Exaltation of the Cross.

However, in 1960 Pope John XXIII exercised his power to change the way first Sundays were calculated. He decided that it just made sense to make the first Sunday of the month, the first Sunday of the month as it appeared on the calendar. He did not change WHEN the September Ember days fell, he just changed HOW it was calculated. Using the same example of this years September calendar, Sept 5 was the first Sunday of September. That makes this coming Sunday, the 19th the third Sunday. Since September Ember Days fall on the W,F, and S after the 3rd Sunday, that makes them Sept 24,26,and27 (I think).

This new calculation went into effect with the 1962 Missal. Since the entire Church was using this Missal in 1962, this would have been the norm. When Marcel Levebre started the SSPX, he was using this Breviary with all its Feast days and prayers. The SSPX stills uses the 1962 Missal as does the FSSP and other communities in communion with the Pope.

Independent priests and sede's typically use and early Missal from 1954. This is where much confusion comes in.

Personally, I find it confusing myself. I visit several traditional sites and every one is talking about the upcoming Ember Days. As I am SSPX, I am using the 1962 Missal and those Ember Days do not fall until next week.

I hope that helps clear up some confusion.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #13 on:** September 15, 2010, 12:44:22 PM »

Thanks so much, I thought my calender had a misprint, because this happened before, (misprints). That explains this and I guess all I can say is, its a good thing, where God is time does not exist.