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Author Topic: EENS and Garrigou-Lagrange  (Read 1344 times)

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Offline frignatius

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EENS and Garrigou-Lagrange
« on: August 20, 2019, 01:46:04 PM »
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  • In most traditional circles I know of Garrigou-Lagrange is a go to theologian in his interpretation of St Thomas and he is placed in opposition to the modernist theologians who succeeded him. (Perhaps my circles are not traditional enough....)

    But I'm interested to know if any of you have read his life everlasting....

    I was re-reading some of it this week, take a look at the following taken from the section "on the number of the elect"

    "To conclude: some insist on the mercy of God, others on the justice of God. Neither one side nor the other gives us certitude. And the reasons of appropriateness which each invokes differ very much from the reasons of appropriateness invoked in favor of a dogma which is already certain by revelation, whereas here we are treating of a truth that is not certain. Theologians in general are inclined to fill out what Scripture and tradition tell us by distinguishing the means of salvation given to Catholics from those that are given men of good will beyond the borders of the Church. Restricting the question to Catholics, we find the doctrine, generally held especially since Suarez, that, if we consider merely adults, the number of the elect surpasses that of the reprobate. If adult Catholics do at one time or another sin mortally, nevertheless they can arise in the tribunal of penance, and there are relatively few who at the end of life do not repent, or even refuse to receive the sacraments. But if we are treating of all Christians, of all who have been baptized, Catholic, schismatic, Protestant, it is more probable, theologians generally say, that the great number is saved. First, the number of infants who die in the state of grace before reaching the age of reason is very great. Secondly, many Protestants, being today in good faith, can be reconciled to God by an act of contrition, particularly in danger of death. Thirdly, schismatics can receive a valid absolution. If the question is of the entire human race, the answer must remain uncertain, for the reasons given above. But even if, absolutely, the number of the elect is less great, the glory of God's government cannot suffer. Quality prevails over quantity. One elect soul is a spiritual universe; Further, no evil happens that is not permitted for a higher good. Further, among non- Christians (Jєωs, Mohammedans, pagans) there are souls which are elect. Jєωs and Mohammedans not only admit monotheism, but retain fragments of primitive revelation and of Mosaic revelation. They believe in a God who is a supernatural rewarder, and can thus, with the aid of grace, make an act of contrition. And even to pagans, who live in invincible, involuntary ignorance of the true religion, and who still attempt to observe the natural law, supernatural aids are offered, by means known to God. These, as Pius IX says, [679] can arrive at salvation. God never commands the impossible. To him who does what is in his power God does not refuse grace. [680] We cannot arrive at certitude in this question. It is better to acknowledge our ignorance than to discourage the faithful by a doctrine which is too rigid, to expose them to danger by a doctrine which is too superficial. The important thing is to observe the commandments of God. St. Augustine [681] said, and the Council of Trent repeats: [682] "God never commands the impossible. But He warns us to do what we can, and to ask of Him the grace to accomplish what we of ourselves cannot do, and He aids us to fulfill what He commands." Let us put our confidence in Jesus Christ, [683] "the victim of propitiation for our sins," [684] "the Lamb of God, . . . who taketh away the sin of the world." [685] "Let us go with confidence to the throne of grace that we may obtain mercy and find grace in seasonable aid." [686] "

    the Pope Pius IX citation which is "Denz., no. 1677.  "Those who labor under invincible ignorance in regard to our most holy religion, and who observe conscientiously (this presupposes the help of grace) the natural law whose precepts are inscribed by God in their hearts and are ready to obey God, can lead an honorable and righteous life , by the operation of divine light and grace, and arrive at eternal life"

    Has he essentially captured the tradition on this, or is he going too far? I need to read more to see how he squares this with EENS.

    Perhaps my assessment of GL is incorrect and he is regarded as a modernist, I would like to know your views on him and his writing...
    Extra Mariam Nulla Salus


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS and Garrigou-Lagrange
    « Reply #1 on: August 20, 2019, 02:07:07 PM »
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  • It is better to acknowledge our ignorance than to discourage the faithful by a doctrine which is too rigid, to expose them to danger by a doctrine which is too superficial.
    G-L was born: 1877, Auch, France / Died:1964, Rome, Italy = another one of those 19th/20th century theologians.

    It is better necessary to accept dogma as declared. The thing we are not permitted to do, is to to preach that we are to ignorant to understand that which is clearly declared and in apodictic terms. Or, to think the doctrine is too rigid, therefore superficial and dangerous.

    In Her wisdom, the Church, by telling the world where salvation is not, tells the world with absolute clarity, exactly where salvation is to be found.



    Quote
    Perhaps my assessment of GL is incorrect and he is regarded as a modernist, I would like to know your views on him and his writing...

    Whether he is the true definition of Modernist or not I do not know, but he certainly blows it on this doctrine.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS and Garrigou-Lagrange
    « Reply #2 on: August 20, 2019, 02:49:32 PM »
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  • This is so horrific that I don't know where to start.

    He is among those whom the Popes have condemned as reducing EENS to a meaningless formula, a tautology ... and it's all a direct precursor to Vatican II ecclesiology.

    He rightly points to (I say, at) Suarez as a chief culprit.  Until about the year 1600 when those Jesuits began tampering with EENS, no Catholic anywhere believed that anyone outside the Church could be saved.

    Offline frignatius

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    Re: EENS and Garrigou-Lagrange
    « Reply #3 on: August 20, 2019, 02:55:03 PM »
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  • He is among those whom the Popes have condemned as reducing EENS to a meaningless formula, a tautology ... and it's all a direct precursor to Vatican II ecclesiology.
    That was my reading of it, 
    This is interesting:
    http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=3904
    Extra Mariam Nulla Salus

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: EENS and Garrigou-Lagrange
    « Reply #4 on: August 20, 2019, 02:55:18 PM »
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  • Quote
    In most traditional circles I know of Garrigou-Lagrange is a go to theologian in his interpretation of St Thomas and he is placed in opposition to the modernist theologians who succeeded him. 
    In the country of blind men, the one eyed man is a king.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS and Garrigou-Lagrange
    « Reply #5 on: August 20, 2019, 03:15:16 PM »
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  • That was my reading of it,
    This is interesting:
    http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=3904

    Well, +Lefebvre too was a sworn enemy of Modernism.  But he, like Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange, missed the fact that very subjectivism that was the driving force behind Modernism was likewise behind the emerging soteriology and, therefore, ecclesiology.

    Offline King Wenceslas

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    Re: EENS and Garrigou-Lagrange
    « Reply #6 on: August 20, 2019, 07:25:17 PM »
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  • Well, +Lefebvre too was a sworn enemy of Modernism.  But he, like Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange, missed the fact that very subjectivism that was the driving force behind Modernism was likewise behind the emerging soteriology and, therefore, ecclesiology.

    So do you reject this statement by Pius IX:

    "Those who labor under invincible ignorance in regard to our most holy religion, and who observe conscientiously (this presupposes the help of grace) the natural law whose precepts are inscribed by God in their hearts and are ready to obey God, can lead an honorable and righteous life, by the operation of divine light and grace, and arrive at eternal life"

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: EENS and Garrigou-Lagrange
    « Reply #7 on: August 20, 2019, 07:30:33 PM »
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  • I hope Garrigou Lagrange is right but i rather doubt it tbh.  I’m too skeptical.

    I don’t know why people think rejecting the invincible ignorance statement by Pius IX would Per se be a problem. I do accept it, but popes are usually fallible 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS and Garrigou-Lagrange
    « Reply #8 on: August 20, 2019, 10:49:48 PM »
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  • We've been through Pius IX a thousand times.  What I reject is your misinterpretation of Pius IX.  Your reading of his text would make him a Pelagian.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS and Garrigou-Lagrange
    « Reply #9 on: August 21, 2019, 05:41:49 AM »
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  • I hope Garrigou Lagrange is right but i rather doubt it tbh.  I’m too skeptical.

    I don’t know why people think rejecting the invincible ignorance statement by Pius IX would Per se be a problem. I do accept it, but popes are usually fallible

    It's a misreading of Pius IX.  Pius IX famously lamented the fact that it was reported to him after these statements that his teaching was being used to undermine EENS.  In this passage, he is merely echoing the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas, that if someone has the proper dispositions, God will lead them to salvation.  This statement does NOT teach that they can be saved in their state of ignorance.  That is contrary to all Catholic teaching.  Invincible ignorance is not salvific but merely exculpatory.  In order to be saved, one must have supernatural faith.  And in order to have supernatural faith, one must actively and explicitly believe something about God.  To say that people are in a state of grace without actively having any supernatural virtue (including faith) is in fact Pelagianism.  Even the "Rewarder God"-theory Jesuits held that souls must believe something explicitly about God ... even though they minimize it.

    If they remain in their ignorance, as St. Thomas taught, that would be a punishment for sin.  But if they do not resist God's grace, they will be led to the truth, either by internal inspiration or by God sending a preacher (even an angel if necessary) to enlighten them regardging "what must be believed".  The fact that something MUST BE BELIEVED cannot be disputed.  So at some point they must be drawn from their ignorance and enlightened.  That is what Pius IX meant by the phrase "through the operation of divine LIGHT and grace."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS and Garrigou-Lagrange
    « Reply #10 on: August 21, 2019, 05:43:55 AM »
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  • Notice how Wenceslas inserts his own editorial comment as well.

    His translation also misplaces the phrase "by the operation of divine light and grace", which actually goes with being able to attain salvation.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS and Garrigou-Lagrange
    « Reply #11 on: August 21, 2019, 05:51:13 AM »
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  • So do you reject this statement by Pius IX:

    "Those who labor under invincible ignorance in regard to our most holy religion, and who observe conscientiously (this presupposes the help of grace) the natural law whose precepts are inscribed by God in their hearts and are ready to obey God, can lead an honorable and righteous life, by the operation of divine light and grace, and arrive at eternal life"
    "Incredible to say, it is the sentence which is printed [above], which is used as proof that the Doctrine of Exclusive Salvation is not a Catholic dogma, and this, when it is sandwiched between two explicit affirmations of this truth. The sentence can be used to deny the dogma only if it is lifted out of its context between these two affirmations, and deliberately misunderstood or mistranslated". - Fr. Wathen, from his book Who Shall Ascend?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: EENS and Garrigou-Lagrange
    « Reply #12 on: August 21, 2019, 06:20:02 AM »
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  • St. Pius X quoting Benedict XVI in Acerbo Nimis:

    Quote
    And so Our Predecessor, Benedict XIV, had just cause to write: "We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect."

    There's a certain core set of mysteries of faith which "must be known and believed in order to be" saved.  This has always been the teaching of the Church.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: EENS and Garrigou-Lagrange
    « Reply #13 on: August 21, 2019, 01:27:30 PM »
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  • It says there that schismatics can receive valid absolution. Is this true? I believe I heard their sacraments are valid, so I suppose that applies to confession, but I'm not sure.

    But I suppose it's an irrelevant question as they never confess and repudiate the mortal sin of schism.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: EENS and Garrigou-Lagrange
    « Reply #14 on: August 21, 2019, 01:54:47 PM »
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  • It says there that schismatics can receive valid absolution. Is this true? I believe I heard their sacraments are valid, so I suppose that applies to confession, but I'm not sure.

    But I suppose it's an irrelevant question as they never confess and repudiate the mortal sin of schism.
    Their sacraments, when things were good, were considered valid, but who knows these days?

    If he is talking about final absolution when death is imminent, there is this from Trent: Session 14 Chapter 7 which applies to both the priest and the penitent.

    "Nevertheless, for fear lest any may perish on this account, it has always been very piously observed in the said Church of God, that there be no reservation at the point of death, and that therefore all priests may absolve all penitents whatsoever from every kind of sins and censures whatever: and as, save at that point of death, priests have no power in reserved cases, let this alone be their endeavour, to persuade penitents to repair to superior and lawful judges for the benefit of absolution".
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse