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Offline sedevacantist

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Eden still exists..
« on: March 02, 2018, 01:55:10 PM »
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  • The ancient Book of Enoch is becoming quite popular nowadays. As anyone familiar with it knows, the ancient Patriarch composed his mystical gem from within the land of Eden. This is where he was taken by God, as we read in the 44th chapter (v.16) of the Book of Ecclesiasticus (throughout the Septuagint translation of the Old Testament, the term "paradeisos" was used exclusively to refer to Eden, or the Garden of Eden). And so, it was here in this mysterious land that the Patriarch spent his time - traveling around, sampling its delicacies, and conversing with the Archangels, who showed him the great, unseen mysteries of God’s creation. Except for the years’ time when he was allowed to return to his family to explain his visions, he spent the rest of his life in Eden.

    Now first of all, when I speak of “Eden”, I’m talking about the land where Enoch received his visions and instructions – and not specifically the “Garden of Eden”. According to Enoch, the Biblical “Garden of Eden” is a separate territory within the land of Eden. He calls it the “Garden of Righteousness”, but we know he’s speaking of the same place because it’s in this “Garden of Righteousness” where he says the Tree of Wisdom (a.k.a. the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil) is found. Ergo, we know that the Garden of Eden is a separate territory within Eden. And so again, when I speak of “Eden”, I’m talking about the entire land of Eden, and not strictly The Garden.

    The reason I mention this is because Scripture tells us that Adam and Eve were banished from the “Garden of Eden” without making any further mention of the land of Eden itself. This might be confusing to some as it seems to imply that the pair were merely banished from "The Garden", and not from Eden as well. But it’s clear from reading Enoch’s book that the land of Eden, in general, is definitely NOT a part of our visible world. Enoch tells us, for example, that there are mountains there that are larger than any found in our visible world – some of them comprised entirely of gold, silver, and precious stones. There were also creatures there, as well as vegetation, which are altogether unfamiliar to us. All this to say, the land of Eden is evidently NOT a part of our visible world. Ergo, Adam and Eve must have been banished from Eden as well as the Garden (I personally believe the entrance to Eden is through "The Garden". This would explain the apparent discrepancy).

    Anyway, along with Enoch, it was also to this hidden paradise that the prophet Elijah was taken in a whirlwind (4 Kings 2:11), and where he spent at least the next ten years of his life. I say at least ten years, because Scripture says that a decade after his “disappearance”, he sent a letter to King Jehoram of Judah, berating him for his godless reign (2 Chronicles 21:12). And so we know that Elijah definitely lived somewhere on earth after his disappearance. A few might argue that he was taken to some other location in our visible world, but this doesn’t follow reason - for excepting the letter he wrote, he was never seen or heard from again after his disappearance. By anyone. This doesn’t make any sense if he was living somewhere in our visible world. Nor is it consistent with the glory of God. That is, to imagine that the great Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind and carried off in such a magnificent manner, only to be later dropped off in some nameless pagan land many miles away, just doesn’t square with the way God does things. And the prophet later made his way back to the land of Judah to hand a letter to King Jehoram? And then he left again on foot? Right. It sounds kind of stupid, to say the least – certainly not in the style of God. No, like Enoch, Elijah was taken to Eden to live out the rest of his days in peace. All this to say, though somewhat shrouded in mystery, the land of Eden is an actual physical location on earth. We just can’t see it because it’s in another dimension.

    No doubt this sounds quite fantastic to our modernized ears - but keep in mind that when Adam and Eve fell from grace, they were only banished from the Land of Eden. The territory was never destroyed. This is important to remember. Eden was never destroyed. Instead, as we read in Scripture, God placed Cherubim at the entrance to guard it. This being the case, it's reasonable to assume it still exists. Otherwise, God's actions would be senseless. No, Eden still exists to this day. In fact, I would posit that the land of Eden is the mysterious “Wilderness” spoken of in chapter 12 of the Apocalypse. I believe there’s good evidence to maintain such a belief. Recall that the Wilderness is the secret place where the “Woman” (the Remnant Church) will be hidden and nourished by God for 3 1/2 years, or 1260 days (Apoc.12:14). It’s here in this quiet, secluded, and beautiful wilderness that God will “speak to her heart”, unmolested by any outside forces. Here He will protect the Woman from the rage of the Antichrist, and from the wiles of the Devil. Naturally, the Antichrist won’t be able to find the location because it’s in another dimension. On the other hand, the Devil knows where it is, but cannot enter because there are Cherubim guarding the entrance (Gen. 3:24). This is why he sends a flood instead – to try and drown the Woman (Apoc. 12:15). You see, the Flood of Noah DID affect the land of Eden. And the Devil knows it. And so he thinks he can destroy the Remnant by sending another flood into the territory. This is why he tries this approach. But to no avail. God will protect her. All this to say, I believe there’s good evidence to maintain that Eden is the mysterious “Wilderness” spoken of in the Apocalypse.

    As for its existence at present, we find a testimony to this fact in the biography of St. Lydwine of Sheidam. This amazing saint was blessed with frequent visits from her Guardian Angel. On one occasion, he traveled to Eden and brought her back a branch from a tree found there. The branch was said to be extremely hard (more so than any tree found in our world) and, for a time, emitted the most wonderful fragrance. It was seen and handled by many of the visitors who came to the saint for help and prayers. The branch’s fragrance remained for some time, to the delight and edification of many – that is, until a heretic defiled it with his touch. Anyway, the point is that there is evidence to suggest that Eden is not only an actual physical place, but one that exists to this day as it did in the days of Genesis.

    Finally, I maintain that our visible world, almost completely defiled with the inventions and pollution of godless men, will be done away with in the renewal of the earth following the Second Coming of Christ – and that this renewal will be accomplished by the visible emergence of the land of Eden. In other words, the land of Eden will emerge from obscurity to become our visible world, and our present visible and defiled world will become invisible. As to how it’s going to take place, who knows? God could simply wave His hand over the earth and renew it. But whatever it entails, this seems to be what Scripture alludes to. The land will become like Eden:
    “The Lord therefore will comfort Sion, and will comfort all the ruins thereof: and he will make her desert as a place of pleasure, and her wilderness as Eden. Joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of praise.” (Is. 51:3)

    And again:
    “They shall say: This land that was desolate is become as a garden of Eden: and the cities that were abandoned, and desolate, and destroyed, are peopled and fenced.” (Ez. 36:35)

    And so I believe it is perfectly in line with the words of Scripture that our visible world would be replaced, if you will, by the land of Eden. At any rate, it would be hard to imagine that Christ would reign gloriously for a thousand years here on earth amid the loathsome eyesore of modern man’s materialistic pollution (not to mention the actual toxic pollution of land, sea, and air). No, that position doesn’t follow reason – especially when a far greater renewal could take place with no effort on God’s part whatsoever. And so, I believe that Eden will become our new “visible world” following the Second Coming of Christ. I think this position makes perfect sense, and is consistent with the glory of God.

    So in summary, we know from Scripture that God never destroyed the Land of Eden, but merely placed Cherubim at the entrance to guard it. We also know from the descriptions in the Book of Enoch, that it must be in another dimension – a dimension which runs concurrent with ours but which is invisible. We also know from the history of St. Lydwine of Sheidam that the land of Eden exists to this day, as it did in the days of Genesis. Finally, although hidden at present, this magnificent paradise will soon become our visible world when the Messiah comes again to destroy the forces of evil, purify the earth, and reign in glory upon His throne for a thousand years.



    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Eden still exists..
    « Reply #1 on: March 02, 2018, 02:21:21 PM »
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  • The Book of Enoch is not divinely inspired 


    Offline sedevacantist

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    Re: Eden still exists..
    « Reply #2 on: March 02, 2018, 04:47:49 PM »
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  • The Book of Enoch is not divinely inspired
    On the contrary, Christ himself referred to it as "Scripture": 
    Recall the scene in chapter 22 of Matthew's Gospel wherein Christ is questioned by the Sadducees about the woman who marries seven men, all of whom die. You know the story. Anyway, Christ tells the Sadducees that they err because they know neither the “Scriptures”, nor the power of God (don’t we just love to hear God putting His enemies in their place). But the question is - exactly what “Scripture” is Christ referring to? Where in the entire Canon of Scripture is this particular subject addressed? Have a look for yourself. You won’t find it. The answer is that it’s found nowhere but in the Book of Enoch. His book is the ONLY place where this subject is addressed. 

    In chapter 15 of Enoch’s book, we find the ancient Patriarch standing before the throne of God asking for mercy on behalf of the 200 Fallen Angels who fornicated with earthly women. If you recall, God instructs him to remind the Angels that because men are mortal, and therefore subject to death, they are given wives so as to perpetuate the human race - whereas the Angels are immortal, and therefore in no need of marriage. As far as the Sadducees' question is concerned, the point is that those who die are forevermore "immortal", and therefore in no need of marriage. They have become (to use Christ's words) "like the Angels in Heaven". 

    And so, we see here that God Himself refers to the Book of Enoch as "Scripture". And we know it MUST be Enoch's book He refers to because it's the ONLY place in all of Holy Writ where this particular subject is addressed.

    Keep in mind, the Book of Enoch was never declared "non-Canonical" by the Church. This is crucial to realize. Apparently, the Council of Nicea (325 A.D.), which first decided definitively on the Sacred Canon of Scripture, never declared Enoch’s book “non-Canonical”. Much less was the book ever condemned. It was simply put on the shelf. That’s all. We're not exactly sure of the reasons behind the Council’s decision. It’s possible the book’s mention of Angels mating with earthly women was a little uncomfortable for the Council Fathers (not long after the council, Julian the Apostate began using this Angel explanation to mock Christianity). Who knows for sure? The point is simply that it was never declared non-Canonical, much less was it ever condemned. And so, when Christ refers to it as "Scripture", what are we to think but that it's Scripture?

    I would also mention one more quick point regarding the Book of Enoch: 
    As Enoch says in the beginning of his book, it was written for those who would be present on earth near the end of the world. This is the reason why it has begun gaining popularity as of late – a prophetic outlook which further lends itself to the credibility of the book.

    Offline PG

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    Re: Eden still exists..
    « Reply #3 on: March 02, 2018, 06:16:19 PM »
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  • sedevacantist - You are dead wrong.  In matthew chapter 22 Christ is not referring to the sadducees not knowing the 7 brothers with one wife text.  He is saying that they do not know what the scriptures teach about the resurrection, when they ask in the resurrection whose wife will she be.  Christ is not at all implying that the book of enoch is scripture.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Eden still exists..
    « Reply #4 on: March 02, 2018, 09:38:42 PM »
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  • Quote
    Sedevacantist: On the contrary, Christ himself referred to it as "Scripture": 
    This is untrue / ?dishonest. The book of Enoch is not part of the Bible, so it should not be referred to as the inspired word of God. Christ did not refer to it as Scripture.


    Quote
    Sedevacantist: Recall the scene in chapter 22 of Matthew's Gospel wherein Christ is questioned by the Sadducees about the woman who marries seven men, all of whom die. You know the story. Anyway, Christ tells the Sadducees that they err because they know neither the “Scriptures”, nor the power of God (don’t we just love to hear God putting His enemies in their place). But the question is - exactly what “Scripture” is Christ referring to? Where in the entire Canon of Scripture is this particular subject addressed? Have a look for yourself. You won’t find it. The answer is that it’s found nowhere but in the Book of Enoch. His book is the ONLY place where this subject is addressed.
     Your thinking is twisted to say the least. Just because a particular teaching appears in a particular book, does not make that book canonical. The Canon of the Bible has been decided and it doesn't contain the Book of Enoch.

    Jesus refers to Thomas in the Gospel. Does that make the Gospel of Thomas canonical? The same could be asked about many books. The Church doesn't not accept them as God's Word.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Eden still exists..
    « Reply #5 on: March 03, 2018, 10:20:43 AM »
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  • The Book of Enoch is not divinely inspired

    However, the canonical Epistle of St. Jude explicitly quotes from it in verses 14 and 15.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline sedevacantist

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    Re: Eden still exists..
    « Reply #6 on: March 03, 2018, 02:01:01 PM »
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  • This is untrue / ?dishonest. The book of Enoch is not part of the Bible, so it should not be referred to as the inspired word of God. Christ did not refer to it as Scripture.
    Yes, Nadir. He did.
    As I explained, the Book of Enoch is the ONLY place where this question of the Sadducees is answered. Ergo, this is PRECISELY the "Scripture" Christ referred to. Two plus two equals four...

    Your thinking is twisted to say the least. Just because a particular teaching appears in a particular book, does not make that book canonical. The Canon of the Bible has been decided and it doesn't contain the Book of Enoch.

    Jesus refers to Thomas in the Gospel. Does that make the Gospel of Thomas canonical? The same could be asked about many books. The Church doesn't not accept them as God's Word.
    I never said that the reason the book of Enoch is canonical is because Christ mentions it. I said that He, Himself, REFERS TO IT AS SCRIPTURE. You're not grasping the point.

    Offline sedevacantist

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    Re: Eden still exists..
    « Reply #7 on: March 03, 2018, 02:19:27 PM »
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  • However, the canonical Epistle of St. Jude explicitly quotes from it in verses 14 and 15.
    Thank you, Cantarella - although you realize what everyone's going to answer to this...

    The beauty of St. Jude's quote from the Book of Enoch is two-fold:
    First of all, he specifically attributes this quote to the ancient Patriarch himself. This argues for the fact that the book was written by Enoch, personally. Secondly, the quote mentioned by St. Jude is actually two quotes that are combined into one. And these two quotes are from different sections of Enoch's book - which implies that the whole book was written by Enoch. 

    And, of course, its growing popularity today is a testimony to the truth of its Divine inspiration - again, Enoch says it was written specifically for those who would be around toward the end of the world. That's why it's gaining popularity today. In other words, its prophetic purpose is being realized. Like it or not.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Eden still exists..
    « Reply #8 on: March 03, 2018, 03:48:48 PM »
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  • .
    Enoch lived long before the Flood of Noah.
    .
    There were no written texts kept on the Ark and all the earth was wiped clean with the great Flood.
    .
    Consequently, any "book" we have today which is purported to be written by Enoch is a fake.
    .
    The Bible was not written down until the time of Moses, who learned to write in Egypt.
    .
    The "Book of Enoch" is a perfect example of apocrypha. 
    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Eden still exists..
    « Reply #9 on: March 03, 2018, 04:03:33 PM »
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  •  Recall that the Wilderness is the secret place where the “Woman” (the Remnant Church) will be hidden and nourished by God for 3 1/2 years, or 1260 days (Apoc.12:14). It’s here in this quiet, secluded, and beautiful wilderness that God will “speak to her heart”, unmolested by any outside forces. Here He will protect the Woman from the rage of the Antichrist, and from the wiles of the Devil. Naturally, the Antichrist won’t be able to find the location because it’s in another dimension. On the other hand, the Devil knows where it is, but cannot enter because there are Cherubim guarding the entrance (Gen. 3:24). This is why he sends a flood instead – to try and drown the Woman (Apoc. 12:15). You see, the Flood of Noah DID affect the land of Eden. And the Devil knows it. And so he thinks he can destroy the Remnant by sending another flood into the territory. This is why he tries this approach. But to no avail. God will protect her. All this to say, I believe there’s good evidence to maintain that Eden is the mysterious “Wilderness” spoken of in the Apocalypse.
    .
    .
    You sound like you've been listening to Jehovah's Witnesses, or perhaps Mormons. 
    That's what sedevacantism can do to you -- makes you susceptible to all kinds of novelties.
    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline sedevacantist

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    Re: Eden still exists..
    « Reply #10 on: March 03, 2018, 05:31:22 PM »
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  • Enoch lived long before the Flood of Noah.
    There were no written texts kept on the Ark and all the earth was wiped clean with the great Flood.
    Consequently, any "book" we have today which is purported to be written by Enoch is a fake.
    The Bible was not written down until the time of Moses, who learned to write in Egypt.
    You're lucky the Moderator is on your side...

    So tell us... How do you know there were no written texts on the Ark? Explain that one to us. Even the ancient Jєωιѕн Rabbis admitted in the Kabbalah (specifically the Zohar) that the book was written by Enoch himself:

    “We have also been told that Chanoch (Enoch) had a book, which originated from the same place as that of the generations of Adam. And this book contains the inner secrets of wisdom." (Zohar Bereshit 51 474)

    And again:
    "We find in the book of Enoch that after the Holy One, blessed be He, had transported Enoch to the supernal regions and shown him all the treasures of the King, both the celestial and the terrestrial (1Enoch 17-18; 2Enoch 5-6 ), He permitted him to behold the Tree of Life (1Enoch 24-25; 2Enoch 8:3) and that Tree of which Adam was warned (1Enoch 32:3-6), and showed him the place where Adam had dwelt in the Garden of Eden (1Enoch 32:3-6; 2Enoch 8 ), and Enoch perceived that if Adam had been obedient he would have so dwelt for ever, having eternal life and perpetual joy in the glory of the Garden. But because he broke the commandment of his Lord, he was punished." (1Enoch 69:6)
    (Zohar 2:55a)

    And again:
    476. Since it was given to him, it is called the book of Chanoch. When the Holy One, blessed be He, took him, He showed him all the supernal mysteries, including the mystery of the Tree of Life, with its leaves and branches in the middle of the garden. We find all those secrets in his book, all that Elohim showed him when he took him to Heaven."

    Nor have you answered the question of Christ's referring to the book as "Scripture" - or the fact that the prophecy concerning its very purpose is being fulfilled right before our eyes.


    Offline sedevacantist

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    Re: Eden still exists..
    « Reply #11 on: March 03, 2018, 05:38:47 PM »
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  • Recall that the Wilderness is the secret place where the “Woman” (the Remnant Church) will be hidden and nourished by God for 3 1/2 years, or 1260 days (Apoc.12:14). It’s here in this quiet, secluded, and beautiful wilderness that God will “speak to her heart”, unmolested by any outside forces. Here He will protect the Woman from the rage of the Antichrist, and from the wiles of the Devil. Naturally, the Antichrist won’t be able to find the location because it’s in another dimension. On the other hand, the Devil knows where it is, but cannot enter because there are Cherubim guarding the entrance (Gen. 3:24). This is why he sends a flood instead – to try and drown the Woman (Apoc. 12:15). You see, the Flood of Noah DID affect the land of Eden. And the Devil knows it. And so he thinks he can destroy the Remnant by sending another flood into the territory. This is why he tries this approach. But to no avail. God will protect her. All this to say, I believe there’s good evidence to maintain that Eden is the mysterious “Wilderness” spoken of in the Apocalypse.
    .
    .
    You sound like you've been listening to Jehovah's Witnesses, or perhaps Mormons.
    That's what sedevacantism can do to you -- makes you susceptible to all kinds of novelties.

    Really? 
    Tell me, specifically, what it is about the above quote that would lead you to that conclusion. 

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Eden still exists..
    « Reply #12 on: March 03, 2018, 05:44:13 PM »
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  • However, the canonical Epistle of St. Jude explicitly quotes from it in verses 14 and 15.
    No, there is mention of the Book of Enoch in the Epistle of Jude. 
    I amsurprised that you do not see the difference betweenthe Book of Enoch and the man, Enoch the prophet.

    [13]Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own confusion; wandering stars, to whom the storm of darkness is reserved for ever. [14] Now of these Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying: Behold, the Lord cometh with thousands of his saints, [15] To execute judgment upon all, and to reprove all the ungodly
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Eden still exists..
    « Reply #13 on: March 03, 2018, 05:45:19 PM »
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  • .
    Enoch lived long before the Flood of Noah.
    .
    There were no written texts kept on the Ark and all the earth was wiped clean with the great Flood.
    .
    Consequently, any "book" we have today which is purported to be written by Enoch is a fake.
    .
    The Bible was not written down until the time of Moses, who learned to write in Egypt.
    .
    The "Book of Enoch" is a perfect example of apocrypha.
    .

    It is my understanding that some of the patristic writers did believe the work to be authentic. It was only until the 4th century that apparently the book lost credit and ceased being quoted.  

    This is the citation from the Catholic Encyclopedia, on the Book of Enoch

    Quote
    Passing to the patristic writers, the Book of Henoch enjoyed a high esteem among them, mainly owing to the quotation in Jude. The so-called Epistle of Barnabas twice cites Henoch as Scripture. Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen, and even St. Augustine suppose the work to be a genuine one of the patriarch. But in the fourth century the Henoch writings lost credit and ceased to be quoted. After an allusion by an author of the beginning of the ninth century, they disappear from view.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Eden still exists..
    « Reply #14 on: March 03, 2018, 05:51:37 PM »
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  • No, there is mention of the Book of Enoch in the Epistle of Jude.
    I amsurprised that you do not see the difference betweenthe Book of Enoch and the man, Enoch the prophet.

    , [13]Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own confusion; wandering stars, to whom the storm of darkness is reserved for ever. [14] Now of these Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying: Behold, the Lord cometh with thousands of his saints, [15] To execute judgment upon all, and to reprove all the ungodly

    The Catholic Encyclopedia of 1917 under the entry "Book of Enoch" makes this reference:

    Quote
    It influenced not only later Jєωιѕн apocrypha, but has left its imprint on the New Testament and the works of the early Fathers. The canonical Epistle of St. Jude, in verses 14, 15, explicitly quotes from the Book of Henoch; the citation is found in the Ethiopic version in verses 9 and 4 of the first chapter. There are probable traces of the Henoch literature in other portions of the New Testament.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01602a.htm
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.