Author Topic: Duress and coercion  (Read 666 times)

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Offline Wall frame

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Duress and coercion
« on: November 09, 2017, 07:23:14 PM »
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  • Just interested in throwing  this out there.

    If a widowed woman with 5 children delivers newspapers for employment and she becomes bothered by the immodest images in the paper she is delivering and believes she may be causing others to sin  but cannot change employment for whatever reason does this constitute duress? Please use references.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Duress and coercion
    « Reply #1 on: November 09, 2017, 08:07:34 PM »
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  • I would say don't worry about it.  Here's why:


    Quote
    978. The principles governing the lawfulness of material cooperation
    will be treated at length below in their proper place among the sins
    opposed to charity. But since, on account of the mixed conditions of
    society today, there are innumerable cases of material cooperation in
    religion, it will be useful to state in advance in this place the
    principles bearing on material cooperation and their application to
    cases on religion and worship. The principles are the same as those
    given for an act that has two effects, one good and the other bad.
    Hence, material cooperation is not lawful, except when the following
    conditions are present:

    (a) The action of him who cooperates must be good in itself or at least
    indifferent, for of course, if it is evil, it is not lawful. Thus, if a
    person were to give to one pagan temple objects he had stolen from
    another temple, his action would be intrinsically sinful on account of
    the theft. Similarly, if a person were to contribute to a collection
    list as "sympathizer" with a school for the propagation of atheism or
    as "beneficiary" from the sacrifices to be offered an idol, his act
    would be intrinsically sinful as being a promotion of error or
    superstition, even though he were not really a sympathizer with atheism
    or a believer in idols.

    (b) The intention of him who cooperates must be good; for, if he wills
    to help a false religion, he is guilty of formal cooperation; if he
    wills some other wrong end, he is guilty of some other species of sin.
    Thus, if one who does not believe in idolatry contributes to it on
    account of sympathy with anti-Christian movements, he is guilty of
    enmity to the truth.

    (c) There must be a reason for the cooperation proportionate to the
    gravity of the sin which will be committed by others, to the proximity
    and necessity of the cooperation, and to the obligation which one has
    of preventing the sin of others. Examples: To contribute to a sect
    which plots the downfall of legitimate authority is never lawful, for
    there is no reason of temporal or private good that can be a
    compensation for the destruction of the public good. To contribute to
    the building of a Mohammedan mosque does not require so serious a
    reason as to contribute to the building of a pagan temple, for mosques
    are not used for idolatry. A graver reason is needed to justify ringing
    the bell or ushering the people to their seats for a service of false
    worship than to justify sweeping and dusting the temple the day before
    the service, for in the former case the cooperation is closer. A
    greater reason is required to build a house of false worship, when
    there is no one else to build it, than when there are many others who
    will gladly build it if one refuses, for in the former case one's
    cooperation is so necessary that without it the false worship cannot
    take place, but not so in the latter case. A much more serious reason
    would be required to justify parents conducting their children to a
    place of false worship than would be required to justify a public
    chauffeur in taking passengers thither; for the parents have a special
    duty to guard the religion of their children.


    .
    From McHugh and Callan, available in full here: http://archive.org/stream/moraltheologyaco35354gut/35354.txt
    More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com


    Offline Wall frame

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    Re: Duress and coercion
    « Reply #2 on: November 09, 2017, 08:26:55 PM »
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  • Makes sense except Mosques are used to worhip Satan so that wasn't the best example.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Duress and coercion
    « Reply #3 on: November 09, 2017, 08:33:55 PM »
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  • Makes sense except Mosques are used to worhip Satan so that wasn't the best example.
    Why complicate the issue by bringing mosques in to it? 

    And what do want for nothing?

    Offline Wall frame

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    Re: Duress and coercion
    « Reply #4 on: November 09, 2017, 10:15:53 PM »
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  • Hard to tell why they would do that but the rest of it made sense


    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Duress and coercion
    « Reply #5 on: November 10, 2017, 02:57:27 AM »
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  • I am in a similar situation, but I am not asking for any advice as I was forced to retire.

    Although I have my TESL (Teaching English as a Second Language) credential, I cannot teach in the local colleges or high schools because I would be forced to use the Pearson textbooks which promote abortion, euthanasia, same sex marriage, gayness as an acceptable lifestyle, cohabitation, etc.

    The chapters in the text which promote this ungodliness are major chapters that cannot be ignored.

    It is important for our youth to investigate thoroughly what profession they wish to learn before signing up for classes, for they may find themselves in a profession which is morally incompatible with Catholic beliefs.
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline Wall frame

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    Re: Duress and coercion
    « Reply #6 on: November 10, 2017, 06:41:01 AM »
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  • Now, that example seems a bit more obvious. To actually teach lies to the people compared to distributing a newspaper... There seems to be a point in which one can go no further. However, there is no escape for many people. If you are a real estate agent you sell homes to people living in sin. If you are a school bus driver you drive children to those wicked public schools. And the list goes on... We are being MADE by the current economics to work these jobs. This appears to be coercion and duress because without employment the world will take your family away and destroy them spiritually.

    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: Duress and coercion
    « Reply #7 on: November 10, 2017, 10:02:03 AM »
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  • I am in a similar situation, but I am not asking for any advice as I was forced to retire.

    Although I have my TESL (Teaching English as a Second Language) credential, I cannot teach in the local colleges or high schools because I would be forced to use the Pearson textbooks which promote abortion, euthanasia, same sex marriage, gayness as an acceptable lifestyle, cohabitation, etc.

    The chapters in the text which promote this ungodliness are major chapters that cannot be ignored.

    It is important for our youth to investigate thoroughly what profession they wish to learn before signing up for classes, for they may find themselves in a profession which is morally incompatible with Catholic beliefs.
    You would not have to use textbooks in a collegiate setting and your views would be respected.
    Tío Samuel, ven pa 'aca


    Offline Marlelar

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    Re: Duress and coercion
    « Reply #8 on: November 10, 2017, 11:19:49 AM »
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  • Just interested in throwing  this out there.

    If a widowed woman with 5 children delivers newspapers for employment and she becomes bothered by the immodest images in the paper she is delivering and believes she may be causing others to sin  but cannot change employment for whatever reason does this constitute duress? Please use references.
    I have no references but common sense would tell me that if what is being delivered is a real newspaper then the immodest images must be from the ads so are secondary and besides as an employee she has no power to change the advertisements. If she's delivering porn papers that is another story. Same would be true of mailmen. Are they sinning because they have to deliver someone's subscription to playboy?  No, it's not a sin. 
    But if her conscience is bothered she really should plan a change in jobs in the near future, not only because of her conscience but it is a job that is dying. Print newspapers are dying and soon will not need anyone for deliveries. Advise her to start planning now and get trained to do something else. 

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Duress and coercion
    « Reply #9 on: November 10, 2017, 01:44:51 PM »
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  • Makes sense except Mosques are used to worhip Satan so that wasn't the best example.
    .
    As someone who is uncertain about the morality of delivering newspapers, you're not really in a position to be questioning the teachings of approved moral theologians.
    .
    More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com

    Offline Wall frame

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    Re: Duress and coercion
    « Reply #10 on: November 10, 2017, 01:55:32 PM »
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  • She has scrupels about the false doctrines on the religious pages too!  She is looking for another job.

    Just stating the obvious about Mosques. Worshipping Satan is the same thing as worshipping an idol. Thank you for the reference.


    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Duress and coercion
    « Reply #11 on: November 10, 2017, 02:05:16 PM »
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  • You would not have to use textbooks in a collegiate setting and your views would be respected.
    New, part-time, or adjunct teachers who do not have tenure cannot select their own text books. Most teachers of ESL must go along with the Chair and  the majority decision who elect texts that the students will purchase. It involves the bookstore, as they want books that sell.

    If there are low enrollments for certain sections of ESL, those classes will be canceled. If everyone is on the same page, fewer books will be returned, and costs for the bookstore will be reduced, as these books can be held over for the next semester.

    Only teachers with tenure can choose their own texts. However, these tenured professors teach multiple sections whereas new or adjunct instructors only teach one or at most two classes.

    Besides Pearson is a monopoly. Go check their website. They control the books and almost all collegiate tests (like PSAT, SAT, and GRE) that most students must use.
    Lord have mercy.

     

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