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Author Topic: Does everything happen for a reason?  (Read 1208 times)

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Offline InfiniteFaith

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Does everything happen for a reason?
« on: March 11, 2013, 01:58:48 AM »
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  • If so then how is there free-will? It seems like if there is free-will then everything that happens does so only because of the choices made by people. Unless of course, God personally tells someone to do something.

    How does prophecy work? Does it require the prophet to completely turn his/her free-will over to God, at which point, God would speak through that person? Or can God just speak through that person any time He wants without the consent of the prophet?


    Offline Anthony Benedict

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    Does everything happen for a reason?
    « Reply #1 on: March 11, 2013, 02:19:48 AM »
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  • IF, it's late and I had a long day so pardon me if I sound cranky but...

    Have you ever READ a book on the spiritual life, prayer, etc. ?

    If not, a magnificent guide are the writings of St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Francis de Sales, etc.

    For a technical explanation of the basis of your question, try Fr. Adolf Tanqueray's The Spiritual Life.  I believe TAN has an edition.

    G'night....


    Offline Telesphorus

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    Does everything happen for a reason?
    « Reply #2 on: March 11, 2013, 06:55:35 AM »
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  • Quote from: InfiniteFaith
    If so then how is there free-will? It seems like if there is free-will then everything that happens does so only because of the choices made by people. Unless of course, God personally tells someone to do something.

    How does prophecy work? Does it require the prophet to completely turn his/her free-will over to God, at which point, God would speak through that person? Or can God just speak through that person any time He wants without the consent of the prophet?


    These are exceedingly tricky questions.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10437a.htm

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Does everything happen for a reason?
    « Reply #3 on: March 11, 2013, 08:24:07 AM »
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  • I once heard a sermon with the message that in Heaven free-will does not exist because our will is totally united to the Will of God.  

    I like to believe that things on earth do happen for a reason, however most of the time we can't see the big picture.  Many times what might appear to be something we don't want turns out to be a blessing in disguise; and yes, to things that happen because are choice is against the Will of God. In that case we create our own crosses.   :facepalm:  
    Please pray for my soul.
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    Offline Rosarium

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    Does everything happen for a reason?
    « Reply #4 on: March 11, 2013, 08:33:07 AM »
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  • Quote from: InfiniteFaith
    If so then how is there free-will? It seems like if there is free-will then everything that happens does so only because of the choices made by people. Unless of course, God personally tells someone to do something.

    How does prophecy work? Does it require the prophet to completely turn his/her free-will over to God, at which point, God would speak through that person? Or can God just speak through that person any time He wants without the consent of the prophet?


    This question is a major focus of the teachings of the Church and many heresies. Rather than going into depth into the theology of it, perhaps one may consider the following:

    God made Man in his image, with intellect and will.

    God made Man so Man may have God has his Last End. We naturally desire to return to God to complete all our desires.

    God is beyond our understanding, so if we have complete understanding, then we are in error. However, we can understand that God allows us freedom within the design of God. At any given situation, one could make a case for God doing nothing or God being responsible for all. God is the First Cause, the source of everything, and he sustains everything.

    Most things in our lives we do not control at all. In fact, we could be said to be in control of nothing at all, except the slimmest faculty of our will, and then, only weakly.

    Given our fallen state, we are sick, and our intellect and will suffer, and our bodies are dying. We do not experience life perfectly. It is because of this we have these sorts of questions. In this state, we need God in a way that is perhaps something which is not comparable to how we need God in perfection (the way the angels need God).

    In The Spiritual Combat, it is written:

    Quote from: CHAPTER TWO:  DISTRUST OF SELF

     

    DISTRUST OF SELF is so absolutely requisite in the spiritual combat, that without this virtue we cannot expect to defeat our weakest passions, much less gain a complete victory.  This important truth should be deeply imbedded in our hearts; for, although in ourselves we are nothing, we are too apt to overestimate our own abilities and to conclude falsely that we are of some importance. This vice springs from the corruption of our nature. But the more natural a thing is, the more difficult it is to be discovered.

    But God, to Whom nothing is secret, looks upon this with horror, because it is His Will that we should be convinced we possess only that virtue and grace which comes from Him alone, and that without Him we are incapable of one meritorious thought. This distrust of our own strength is a gift from Heaven, bestowed by God on those He loves. It is granted sometimes through His holy inspiration, sometimes through severe afflictions, or almost insurmountable temptations and other ways which are unknown to us. Yet He expects that we will do everything within our power to obtain it. And we certainly will obtain it if, with the grace of God, we seriously employ the following four means.

    First. We must mediate upon our own weakness. Consider the fact that, being nothing in ourselves, we cannot, without Divine assistance, accomplish the smallest good or advance the smallest step towards Heaven.

    Second. We must beg God, with great humility and fervor, this eminent virtue which must come from Him alone. Let us begin by acknowledging not only that we do not possess it, but that of ourselves we are utterly incapable of acquiring it. Then let us cast ourselves at the feet of our Lord and earnestly beg Him to grant our request. We must do this with firm confidence that we will be heard if we patiently await the effect of our prayer, and persevere in it as long as it pleases Divine Providence,

    Third. We must gradually accustom ourselves to distrust our own strength, to dread the illusions of our own mind, the strong tendency of our nature to sin, and the overwhelming number of enemies that surround us. Their subtlety, experience, and strength surpass ours, for they can transform themselves into Angels of light, and lie in ambush for us as we advance towards Heaven.

    Fourth. As often as we commit a fault, we must examine ourselves in order to discover our vulnerable points. God permits us to fall only that we may gain a deeper insight into ourselves, that we may learn to despise ourselves as wretched creatures and to desire honestly to be disregarded by others. Without this we cannot hope to obtain distrust of self which is rooted in humility and the knowledge of our own weakness.

    Whoever seeks to approach the eternal truth and fountain of all light must know himself thoroughly. He must not imitate the pride of those who obtain no other knowledge than what their sins provide, and who begin to open their eyes only when they are plunged into some disgraceful and unforeseen debacle. This happens through God's permission that they may know their own weakness, and, by sad experience, learn not to rely on their own strength. God seldom supplies so severe a remedy against their presumption unless other means have failed.

    Briefly, He permits persons to sin more or less grievously in proportion to their pride, and, if there were any as free from pride as the Blessed Virgin, I dare say, they would never fall. As often as you commit a fault, therefore, immediately strive to probe your inner consciousness; earnestly beg our Lord to enlighten you, that you may see yourself as you are in His sight, and presume no more on your strength, otherwise you will fall again into the same faults, or perhaps much greater ones to the eternal ruin of your soul.


    It is clear that that regardless of the intricacies of the theology of free will and grace, that the best and only good thing we can do is to trust in God, and allow God's grace to guide us. Once we presume to rely on our own will and our own intellect, our weaknesses and mortality will be thrown in our face, even if we try to ignore it.

    Prophets, in the sense that St. John was a prophet, answer God's call, and although they may not be too pleased with it, all the holy prophets seemed to have accepted it and it was not "involuntary" any more than Mary's acceptance of the Incarnation or Adam's sin.



    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Does everything happen for a reason?
    « Reply #5 on: March 11, 2013, 08:46:10 AM »
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  • Yes, everything happens for a reason.  There are no surprises to God.  All things are fore-ordained by His providence.  Try reading the psalms, David talks about this a lot.  

    It doesn't conflict with our free will.  Free will refers to the fact that we choose, and that we choose without coercion.  It seems to me that in modern times free will is conflated with omnipotence.  People think they don't have free will because they can't jump out of a top floor balcony and fly to the moon.  And on the other hand, I have seen people view free will as 'having the option' to do whatever one wants.  As in, if one wants to do C but only has options A and B, they would claim their free will to be taken away.

    It's important to understand that all free will is is the fact that we can choose (this is a fact) and that we make our own choices (this is also a fact).  Free will doesn't have anything to do with whether or not we like our options, have lots of options, or have inordinate abilities.  It refers only to the ability to freely commit one's self to a particular action.  Gotta be careful these days not to have a too American view of free-will.  Free will is only significant when we use it to co-operate with God's grace.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline InfiniteFaith

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    Does everything happen for a reason?
    « Reply #6 on: March 11, 2013, 01:37:11 PM »
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  • I think what I am gathering from all of this is that there is God's will and man's will. The will of God has been laid out way before man even gets the chance to act. But when that time comes, if man acts in accordance with God's will then there is a sense of grace. At which point, we get the sense of "that was meant to happen".

    I also imagine that God must seed us from time to time so that we know what to do. But there are times where I say things to people and I get that sense of "it was meant to happen" but it came out of nowhere. It was like God just kinda took control of me. I will say that I did not resist though.

    Offline InfiniteFaith

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    Does everything happen for a reason?
    « Reply #7 on: March 11, 2013, 11:00:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Yes, everything happens for a reason.  There are no surprises to God.  All things are fore-ordained by His providence.  Try reading the psalms, David talks about this a lot.  

    It doesn't conflict with our free will.  Free will refers to the fact that we choose, and that we choose without coercion.  It seems to me that in modern times free will is conflated with omnipotence.  People think they don't have free will because they can't jump out of a top floor balcony and fly to the moon.  And on the other hand, I have seen people view free will as 'having the option' to do whatever one wants.  As in, if one wants to do C but only has options A and B, they would claim their free will to be taken away.

    It's important to understand that all free will is is the fact that we can choose (this is a fact) and that we make our own choices (this is also a fact).  Free will doesn't have anything to do with whether or not we like our options, have lots of options, or have inordinate abilities.  It refers only to the ability to freely commit one's self to a particular action.  Gotta be careful these days not to have a too American view of free-will.  Free will is only significant when we use it to co-operate with God's grace.


    Sometimes I have thought that too. But how do you explain when a person commits mortal sin? That certainly did not happen for a reason. Which means that not everything happens for a reason.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Does everything happen for a reason?
    « Reply #8 on: March 11, 2013, 11:21:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: InfiniteFaith
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Yes, everything happens for a reason.  There are no surprises to God.  All things are fore-ordained by His providence.  Try reading the psalms, David talks about this a lot.  

    It doesn't conflict with our free will.  Free will refers to the fact that we choose, and that we choose without coercion.  It seems to me that in modern times free will is conflated with omnipotence.  People think they don't have free will because they can't jump out of a top floor balcony and fly to the moon.  And on the other hand, I have seen people view free will as 'having the option' to do whatever one wants.  As in, if one wants to do C but only has options A and B, they would claim their free will to be taken away.

    It's important to understand that all free will is is the fact that we can choose (this is a fact) and that we make our own choices (this is also a fact).  Free will doesn't have anything to do with whether or not we like our options, have lots of options, or have inordinate abilities.  It refers only to the ability to freely commit one's self to a particular action.  Gotta be careful these days not to have a too American view of free-will.  Free will is only significant when we use it to co-operate with God's grace.


    Sometimes I have thought that too. But how do you explain when a person commits mortal sin? That certainly did not happen for a reason. Which means that not everything happens for a reason.


    What do you mean?

    The reason that we commit mortal sin is that we choose to.  It's a product (though an abuse) of free will.

    Or by reason do you mean 'greater good?'  As in, does everything that happens happen for a greater (presumably) supernatural good?

    That's a different question altogether.  

    It is good that souls go to Hell.  It is not good for that soul, and it would be better if they didn't, but Hell is the perfect manifestation of God's justice.  
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline InfiniteFaith

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    Does everything happen for a reason?
    « Reply #9 on: March 12, 2013, 12:02:35 AM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: InfiniteFaith
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Yes, everything happens for a reason.  There are no surprises to God.  All things are fore-ordained by His providence.  Try reading the psalms, David talks about this a lot.  

    It doesn't conflict with our free will.  Free will refers to the fact that we choose, and that we choose without coercion.  It seems to me that in modern times free will is conflated with omnipotence.  People think they don't have free will because they can't jump out of a top floor balcony and fly to the moon.  And on the other hand, I have seen people view free will as 'having the option' to do whatever one wants.  As in, if one wants to do C but only has options A and B, they would claim their free will to be taken away.

    It's important to understand that all free will is is the fact that we can choose (this is a fact) and that we make our own choices (this is also a fact).  Free will doesn't have anything to do with whether or not we like our options, have lots of options, or have inordinate abilities.  It refers only to the ability to freely commit one's self to a particular action.  Gotta be careful these days not to have a too American view of free-will.  Free will is only significant when we use it to co-operate with God's grace.


    Sometimes I have thought that too. But how do you explain when a person commits mortal sin? That certainly did not happen for a reason. Which means that not everything happens for a reason.


    What do you mean?

    The reason that we commit mortal sin is that we choose to.  It's a product (though an abuse) of free will.

    Or by reason do you mean 'greater good?'  As in, does everything that happens happen for a greater (presumably) supernatural good?

    That's a different question altogether.  

    It is good that souls go to Hell.  It is not good for that soul, and it would be better if they didn't, but Hell is the perfect manifestation of God's justice.  


    Have you seen the movie Signs which was directed by Mel Gibson? In the movie, the preachers son has asthma. Towards the end of the movie, an alien tries to poison the boy with asthma by shooting poisonous gas into the boys nose. Miraculously, the boy survives. At the very end of the movie, Mel Gibson realizes that the boy wouldn't have survived if it wasn't for his asthma. The asthma prevented the poisonous gas from fully setting in. It was if the boy was predestined to have asthma for that very purpose. So that when the alien would eventually try to poison him...the asthma would save his life. Thats exactly what I mean by things happening for a reason. I think that when people commit mortal sin they were not predestined to do so. Therefore, their grave act did not occur for any reason. Other than them using their own free will to commit the act. Point being, not everything happens for a reason.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Does everything happen for a reason?
    « Reply #10 on: March 12, 2013, 09:01:19 AM »
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  • OK, I see.  God does not cause evil, so in that sense you're right.  Though He does (obviously) permit it.  It's not like when we sin we 'pull one over' on God.  It's just that in His providence, He knows how to bring good out of evil, and He only allows evil so that He might bring good about from it.  There's no act in the history of man so heinous as the deicide of the Jєωs, and from it came the greatest act in history-- our Redemption.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).