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Poll

Where do you stand on Marriage Prenups and State Marriage Licenses?

I FAVOR a Catholic prenup and REFUSE a state marriage license.
2 (8.3%)
I REFUSE a Catholic Prenup and ACCEPT a state marriage license.
1 (4.2%)
I accept Catholic marriage vows and state laws as written (and pray I'm not divorced).
13 (54.2%)
I don't have a firm opinion on either one.
3 (12.5%)
I hope to get to Heaven by remaining single.
5 (20.8%)

Total Members Voted: 20

Voting closed: July 05, 2018, 07:43:47 PM

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2018, 08:24:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: Croix de Fer on June 24, 2018, 08:08:58 AM
    Not sure what you're asking, but there is no real divorce in the Eyes of God. The State will grant the divorce. The prenup will protect the man from getting his house, equity, bank accounts, assets, etc. stolen from him by the woman divorcing him, if there is no evidence of any fault of his own that lead to the divorce (many women nowadays divorce men because the women don't feel like being married anymore), and the prenup is written to protect him in such manner. Of course, the prenup and outcome of the "divorce" depends on how the prenup is written (and signed) in accordance to the wishes of both parties involved.
    Although I understand the need to want to financially protect the man, I see a pre-nup as saying, "I don't really trust you when you promise to God that you will remain married to me "until death to us part"".  And if the supposedly Catholic couple doesn't trust one another to remain faithful to God in this matter, then perhaps they shouldn't be getting married in the first place.
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    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #31 on: June 24, 2018, 08:28:04 AM »
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    • Several women have made the argument that when couples get married, they should entrust everything to God, therefore the prenup should be avoided, because a prenup shows a lack of trust in each other, so there must not be real love involved. If that is their argument, then why do they demand a State marriage license, if they entrust their marriage to God, and they feel they and their husbands should try to live up to an ideal spousal trust? Why do they feel they need legal validation from the State?

    Can you see the contradiction? The women demand trust of each other (husband & wife) only when the women are allowed to have leverage of taking the husband's hard-earned assets, home & money through a "divorce", and in order to allow this leverage to remain, there should be no outside force (prenup) disrupting it. Conversely and in contradiction, they demand an outside force - the State - to be involved in their marriage in a state contract (license) as a 3rd party.

    Wake up from your slumber, "men".
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #32 on: June 24, 2018, 08:58:41 AM »
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    • "Demand" state marriage licenses? 

    Are state marriage licenses even an option?  When I got married, I just took that as routine procedure.   
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #33 on: June 24, 2018, 09:08:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: MaterDominici on June 24, 2018, 12:50:34 AM
    Anything less than long and complicated would not do the complexities of the many possible situations any justice unless you can simply turn authority of the situation over to an entity of the Church. (But, we all know impossible that would be in today's Church situation.)
    Yes, even if it were possible to create a Catholic version of a prenup, one that did not undermine the permanence of marriage, there is the problem of the complexity of marriage breakdowns.  It is rarely a matter of an all-good spouse dealing with an all-bad spouse.

    Here is a hypothetical scenario to illustrate what I mean:

    After the birth of their first child, the wife (due to sleep deprivation, hormone changes, adjusting to motherhood, etc.) loses interest in sɛҳuąƖ intimacy.  She becomes cold toward her husband, reluctant to fulfill the marital debt, and sees him as excessively demanding.  In response, the husband gives in to the temptation to use pornography and masturbation.  Over time, he becomes addicted and begins to prefer fantasy sex to intimacy with a real woman.  This leaves the wife feeling betrayed and hurt.  She would be interested in intimacy now, but cannot compete with the porn.  While in this state, she is tempted by another man who makes her feel loved and desirable again and she commits adultery.  The husband finds out when she becomes pregnant and he beats her.  A couple of days later the wife has a miscarriage which she blames on her husband.  At this point she thinks of him as violent and murderous. She wants to leave him and get a civil divorce.

    Both the husband and wife see the faults of the other and see the other as the cause of the marriage problems.  Both see themselves as the injured party, so how are they going to implement a prenup designed to protect the injured party?  Who is going to make the decision about who is at fault?  They have both committed mortal sins.  How could a prenup have envisioned the situation they are facing?
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #34 on: June 24, 2018, 10:10:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on June 24, 2018, 08:58:41 AM
    "Demand" state marriage licenses?

    Are state marriage licenses even an option?  When I got married, I just took that as routine procedure.  
    When I got married, I looked into only having a Church marriage and it wasn't possible.  Getting married in the Church was automatically registered with the state.
    This was in Canada.  I have heard it works differently in different countries.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #35 on: June 24, 2018, 10:30:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on June 24, 2018, 10:10:58 AM
    When I got married, I looked into only having a Church marriage and it wasn't possible.  Getting married in the Church was automatically registered with the state.
    This was in Canada.  I have heard it works differently in different countries.
    I think that is the way it is here in the US as well.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #36 on: June 24, 2018, 11:04:13 AM »
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    • I wouldn't enter a prenup.  I recognize that I am obliged before God to provide for my wife and children ... even if my wife were to leave me for no fault of my own.  I would give them more than what the divorce settlements typically provide.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #37 on: June 24, 2018, 12:08:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 24, 2018, 11:04:13 AM
    I wouldn't enter a prenup.  I recognize that I am obliged before God to provide for my wife and children ... even if my wife were to leave me for no fault of my own.  I would give them more than what the divorce settlements typically provide.
    The demand for protection for men seems to come from non-Catholic influences. Your attitude seems to be a better reflection of the Catholic teaching that a husband must love his wife as Christ loved the Church and delivered Himself up for her.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #38 on: June 24, 2018, 12:30:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on June 24, 2018, 12:08:49 PM
    The demand for protection for men seems to come from non-Catholic influences. Your attitude seems to be a better reflection of the Catholic teaching that a husband must love his wife as Christ loved the Church and delivered Himself up for her.

    Honestly, what do I need to get by if I'm on my own?  Not a lot.  Much of the prenup "thinking" derives from this notion that I can't start up with a new woman and start a new family if I'm still obligated to my previous wife and kids.  I hear lots of men who are in new sinful relationships complaining about how they can't go on vacations (and the like) with their new family because of the child support and alimony they owe.
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    Offline jen51

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #39 on: June 24, 2018, 12:36:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Croix de Fer on June 24, 2018, 08:28:04 AM
    Several women have made the argument that when couples get married, they should entrust everything to God, therefore the prenup should be avoided, because a prenup shows a lack of trust in each other, so there must not be real love involved. If that is their argument, then why do they demand a State marriage license, if they entrust their marriage to God, and they feel they and their husbands should try to live up to an ideal spousal trust? Why do they feel they need legal validation from the State?
    I think you might be jumping to conclusions when you say women demand a state marriage license. I certainly didn't. Honestly I didn't even think twice about it and neither did my husband. It's just what you do. It's what our priest told us we needed to do and that was end of it.
    Maybe I'm just that ignorant, but I don't think the majority of women here even considered the idea of a state marriage license being a weapon in their favor and therefore demanded one. I bet the question didn't even come up between a lot, if not most couples here when they were preparing for marriage. 
    Bad women aren't under every rock! Just half of them.... lol. 
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    Offline 1st Mansion Tenant

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #40 on: June 24, 2018, 01:21:42 PM »
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    • I know that protestant pastors and Justice of the Peace require marriage licenses before they will perform the ceremony. Do Catholic priests not require this as well? 
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    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #41 on: June 24, 2018, 01:33:58 PM »
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    • There's a bigger question, though:

    Would most priests marry a couple without a state marriage license? 

    Several years ago - this was a couple of months before SCOTUS ruled on Obergefell v. Hodges, there was some pledge signed by members of various Protestant and Roman Catholic clergy to not sign civil marriage licenses with the understanding (and the correct one, for what it's worth) that marriage has strayed from Christian ideals.

    It was a very small number in relation to the number of Christian clergy there are in this country and it was almost four years ago, before the Court ruled. Here is the pledge.

    It has been "signed" by a "pre-1958 usurpation" and a "SSPX", indicating some Traditional Catholic presence, but that was some time ago.
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #42 on: June 24, 2018, 02:50:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on June 24, 2018, 09:08:30 AM
    Yes, even if it were possible to create a Catholic version of a prenup, one that did not undermine the permanence of marriage, there is the problem of the complexity of marriage breakdowns.  It is rarely a matter of an all-good spouse dealing with an all-bad spouse.

    Here is a hypothetical scenario to illustrate what I mean:

    After the birth of their first child, the wife (due to sleep deprivation, hormone changes, adjusting to motherhood, etc.) loses interest in sɛҳuąƖ intimacy.  She becomes cold toward her husband, reluctant to fulfill the marital debt, and sees him as excessively demanding.  In response, the husband gives in to the temptation to use pornography and masturbation.  Over time, he becomes addicted and begins to prefer fantasy sex to intimacy with a real woman.  This leaves the wife feeling betrayed and hurt.  She would be interested in intimacy now, but cannot compete with the porn.  While in this state, she is tempted by another man who makes her feel loved and desirable again and she commits adultery. The husband finds out when she becomes pregnant and he beats her.  A couple of days later the wife has a miscarriage which she blames on her husband.  At this point she thinks of him as violent and murderous. She wants to leave him and get a civil divorce.

    Both the husband and wife see the faults of the other and see the other as the cause of the marriage problems.  Both see themselves as the injured party, so how are they going to implement a prenup designed to protect the injured party?  Who is going to make the decision about who is at fault?  They have both committed mortal sins.  How could a prenup have envisioned the situation they are facing?
    This is a good scenario for discussion.

    Question: Could a Prenup have helped this couple to avoid their marriage crisis?

    Both husband and wife have seriously violated their marriage vows. What are their true Catholic options?

    1. They can still be repentant, go to Confession and make amends to God and to each other.

    2. Technically, adultery is Catholic grounds for separation, correct?
       If they take this option, then they must remain celibate.  

    3.  Annulment?  This case doesn't seem to qualify.

    A Catholic Prenup would have been a written reminder that divorce is not an option.

    In this context, both individuals could have decided to proceed or beak-off with the marriage.

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #43 on: June 24, 2018, 03:42:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on June 24, 2018, 09:08:30 AM
    Yes, even if it were possible to create a Catholic version of a prenup, one that did not undermine the permanence of marriage, there is the problem of the complexity of marriage breakdowns.  It is rarely a matter of an all-good spouse dealing with an all-bad spouse.

    Here is a hypothetical scenario to illustrate what I mean:

    I think that this is overcomplicated.  IMO if the Church determines that the situation justifies separation of the spouses, then civil divorce could follow ... provided that scandal is avoided.  And these divorces typically do give the husband SOME money to continue living and working.  I don't see that much of a problem with it.  And WHOSE FAULT IT WAS has very little relevance to the proceedings.  Men are still bound morally to support their children, even if the couple have separated entirely through her fault.  So what's wrong with legal proceedings that enforce the obligation of such a one to continue providing?  Again, the mentality that the husband has somehow been wronged by forcing to pay child support or alimony comes implicitly from the notion that the wronged husband should be able to start a new family.  If anything, the divorce proceedings as they typically play out are MORE CONSISTENT WITH CATHOLIC MORAL THEOLOGY than the idea of having a prenup that would absolve the many of any financial obligations if the separation happens to have been the woman's fault.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #44 on: June 24, 2018, 03:47:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mega-fin on June 23, 2018, 07:50:53 PM
    Can you validly marry when you already have your divorce planned?

    I think that you certainly can ... so long as the couple views civil divorce as nothing but a legal arrangement that has no bearing on the actual indissolubility of the marriage before God ... in other words, view divorce as synonymous with separation.

    I could even see scenarios where, say, the tax burden would be much higher if the couple were married and so they do a civil divorce ... all the while still living as husband and wife, just like before.
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