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Author Topic: Do we pay back every sin in Purgatory  (Read 1337 times)

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Offline InfiniteFaith

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Do we pay back every sin in Purgatory
« on: March 02, 2013, 08:59:48 PM »
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  • If we go to confession and confess our sins do we still pay them back in Purgatory? Or are we given a clean slate and only responsible for the sins that we die with?


    Offline songbird

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    Do we pay back every sin in Purgatory
    « Reply #1 on: March 02, 2013, 09:15:29 PM »
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  • Punishment due to the sin and that is why we offer up our sufferings and pray for indulgences and almsgiving.  Just like a child, they commit a sin and the parent grounds them.  Read the book Purgatory from TAN publishers and you will read story upon story that tells it like it is.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Do we pay back every sin in Purgatory
    « Reply #2 on: March 02, 2013, 09:23:19 PM »
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  • Quote from: InfiniteFaith
    If we go to confession and confess our sins do we still pay them back in Purgatory? Or are we given a clean slate and only responsible for the sins that we die with?



    If I understand your question as it is in your mind, this is really basic
    catechism material, that you should have learned before receiving First
    Holy Communion in the Roman Rite.  Of course, if you received it in the
    Eastern Rite, it would likely have been as a child before the age of
    reason, but the tradition there is to keep the children in classes
    throughout childhood so they learn as they grow.  

    Have you been to Confession yet?  Or are you a convert?  Or are you
    taking instruction?  Have you been baptized?  Are you a catechumen?

    When the priest gives absolution in Confession he also gives a penance.  
    Do you know anything about why he always gives a penance?  I say
    "always," because that is actually an alternative name for this:  the
    Sacrament of Penance.

    You have to be careful these days in what you hear from modern priests,
    because there are a lot of NovusOrdo priests going around teaching
    heresy on this, saying that Purgatory is not an article of the faith, or that
    it hasn't been defined, or it's not dogmatic, or that it's something we
    don't have to believe in.  


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    Offline MyrnaM

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    Do we pay back every sin in Purgatory
    « Reply #3 on: March 02, 2013, 09:26:52 PM »
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  • It's like this, imagine a little child playing outside with a ball, he throws the ball and breaks his neighbors large window.  

    Now this was a good child and he goes before the neighbor to tell him how sorry he is, "please forgive me," the child says.

    "Yes, I forgive you, but you still have to pay for the window."

    On another note, have you ever heard the prayer for daily neglects?

    Quote
    Some books note concerning this Prayer for Daily Neglects that a Poor Clare nun claimed to have gone directly to Heaven upon her death, skipping purgatory completely through this prayer!


    The nun spoken of above appeared to another nun from her convent and told her about the power of the prayer, see link below for more information.  Or google the words "prayer for daily neglects".

    One of many links to the prayer:

    http://www.ourcatholicprayers.com/prayer-for-daily-neglects.html

     
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/

    Offline InfiniteFaith

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    Do we pay back every sin in Purgatory
    « Reply #4 on: March 02, 2013, 09:29:38 PM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Quote from: InfiniteFaith
    If we go to confession and confess our sins do we still pay them back in Purgatory? Or are we given a clean slate and only responsible for the sins that we die with?



    If I understand your question as it is in your mind, this is really basic
    catechism material, that you should have learned before receiving First
    Holy Communion in the Roman Rite.  Of course, if you received it in the
    Eastern Rite, it would likely have been as a child before the age of
    reason, but the tradition there is to keep the children in classes
    throughout childhood so they learn as they grow.  

    Have you been to Confession yet?  Or are you a convert?  Or are you
    taking instruction?  Have you been baptized?  Are you a catechumen?

    When the priest gives absolution in Confession he also gives a penance.  
    Do you know anything about why he always gives a penance?  I say
    "always," because that is actually an alternative name for this:  the
    Sacrament of Penance.






    I didn't become a believer until just a few years ago. I was under the understanding that you are given a clean slate once you go to confession and you don't have to pay back those sins. But I just read a docuмent that suggested that we have to pay back our mortal sins in purgatory. 7 Years for each sin. It didn't make any sense because mortal sins send us to hell. There is no paying back mortal sins. Purgatory is for those that have no mortal sins. They are just paying back the venial sins that are on their conscience.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Do we pay back every sin in Purgatory
    « Reply #5 on: March 02, 2013, 09:49:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: songbird
    Punishment due to the sin and that is why we offer up our sufferings and pray for indulgences and almsgiving.  Just like a child, they commit a sin and the parent grounds them.  Read the book Purgatory from TAN publishers and you will read story upon story that tells it like it is.


    That is, Purgatory Explained by the Lives and Legends of the Saints by Fr. F.X.
    Schouppe, S.J.  It is an excellent book, giving lots of examples.  I've never heard
    of a Protestant willing to discuss this book, because it refutes all their false
    accusations.  I've heard them attempt to dismiss it by saying "Oh, right, legends -
    we're not supposed to believe legends."  But that doesn't hold up under scrutiny,
    because the word 'legends' has different meanings, and it was being used in this
    title at the time it was written to relate the verifiable record that has been handed
    down to us.  Protestants argue against "tradition," but up until Vatican II Sacred
    Tradition was always MORE credible than Scripture, since the Bible is a PRODUCT
    of Sacred Tradition,
    and an effect cannot be equal to nor greater than its cause.

    That's one of the many errors of Vatican II, which puts them on the same level of
    authority.

    It's pretty thick, though, 427 pages..

    [From Amazon]
    Product Details
        Paperback: 427 pages
        Publisher: TAN Books and Publishers, Inc.; Reprint edition (February 10, 2006)
        Language: English
    ISBN-10: 0895558319
    ISBN-13: 978-0895558312
    Book Description
    Publication Date: February 10, 2006  --[see below, Google Books]
    Revelation teaches that every soul dying in the state of grace, but without having made sufficient expieation on earth for his forgiven sins, will undergo the punishment and purification of Purgatory before entering Heaven. Father Schouppe presents here the ancient Catholic tradition on Purgatory, wxplaining how its pains are excruciating, how they are adapted to the past sins of each soul, how they can vary in duration from less than one minute to the end of time itself. This wonderful treatise also explains how these sufferings manifest the infinite mercy of God, no less than His justice. Often God has allowed souls in Purgatory to appear on earth to plead for help. Here are scores of these true stories from the lives of the Saints, emphasizing the wonderful relief which the souls in Purgatory receive from prayers, penance, almsgiving, and their immeasurable gratitude and the blessings they obtain for their benefactors in return.


    [From Google Books]
    Bibliographic information
    QR code for Purgatory
    Title   Purgatory: Explained by the Lives and Legends of the Saints
    Author   F. X. Schouppe
    Edition   reprint
    Publisher   TAN Books, 1893
    ISBN   0895553015, 9780895553010
    Length   427 pages
    Subjects   
    Religion
     ›
    Christian Theology
     ›
    Eschatology


    Note:  Tan Books was not in business in 1893.  Apparently there are different
    editions going around, since these above have two sets of ISBN numbers.  
    Maybe when it was reprinted it got a new number?  
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    Offline voxxpopulisuxx

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    Do we pay back every sin in Purgatory
    « Reply #6 on: March 02, 2013, 09:52:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: InfiniteFaith
    Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Quote from: InfiniteFaith
    If we go to confession and confess our sins do we still pay them back in Purgatory? Or are we given a clean slate and only responsible for the sins that we die with?



    If I understand your question as it is in your mind, this is really basic
    catechism material, that you should have learned before receiving First
    Holy Communion in the Roman Rite.  Of course, if you received it in the
    Eastern Rite, it would likely have been as a child before the age of
    reason, but the tradition there is to keep the children in classes
    throughout childhood so they learn as they grow.  

    Have you been to Confession yet?  Or are you a convert?  Or are you
    taking instruction?  Have you been baptized?  Are you a catechumen?

    When the priest gives absolution in Confession he also gives a penance.  
    Do you know anything about why he always gives a penance?  I say
    "always," because that is actually an alternative name for this:  the
    Sacrament of Penance.






    I didn't become a believer until just a few years ago. I was under the understanding that you are given a clean slate once you go to confession and you don't have to pay back those sins. But I just read a docuмent that suggested that we have to pay back our mortal sins in purgatory. 7 Years for each sin. It didn't make any sense because mortal sins send us to hell. There is no paying back mortal sins. Purgatory is for those that have no mortal sins. They are just paying back the venial sins that are on their conscience.

    what was the docuмent? Purgatory is only for un-remitted venial sins.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Do we pay back every sin in Purgatory
    « Reply #7 on: March 02, 2013, 10:43:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: InfiniteFaith
    Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Quote from: InfiniteFaith
    If we go to confession and confess our sins do we still pay them back in Purgatory? Or are we given a clean slate and only responsible for the sins that we die with?



    If I understand your question as it is in your mind, this is really basic
    catechism material, that you should have learned before receiving First
    Holy Communion in the Roman Rite.  Of course, if you received it in the
    Eastern Rite, it would likely have been as a child before the age of
    reason, but the tradition there is to keep the children in classes
    throughout childhood so they learn as they grow.  

    Have you been to Confession yet?  Or are you a convert?  Or are you
    taking instruction?  Have you been baptized?  Are you a catechumen?

    When the priest gives absolution in Confession he also gives a penance.  
    Do you know anything about why he always gives a penance?  I say
    "always," because that is actually an alternative name for this:  the
    Sacrament of Penance.






    I didn't become a believer until just a few years ago. I was under the understanding that you are given a clean slate once you go to confession and you don't have to pay back those sins. But I just read a docuмent that suggested that we have to pay back our mortal sins in purgatory. 7 Years for each sin. It didn't make any sense because mortal sins send us to hell. There is no paying back mortal sins. Purgatory is for those that have no mortal sins. They are just paying back the venial sins that are on their conscience.



    Aha!  Now I understand your question better.  Thank you.  There is a lot of
    room for misunderstanding when the terms are a bit vague.  Ambiguity is
    an enemy of the Faith!  

    I would like to encourage you in your studies.  It is a very important thing to learn
    about the Faith, because there is nothing more important for you to do in this
    short life on earth, nothing at all!  

    When you go to Confession, and you make a GOOD ONE (it's not magic - it has
    a lot of importance on your own personal disposition, which can be very difficult
    to discern on our own without a spiritual director, if not impossible), and the
    priest gives you absolution and an appropriate penance, and then you do your
    penance faithfully, your sins are remitted entirely and you have nothing left for
    Purgatory.  But there are caveats!  Lots of "what ifs" :

    What if you deliberately concealed a sin you were unwilling to talk about?
    What if you forgot that two years ago you had decided to forget about it?
    What if the priest deliberately gives you a penance that is entirely too easy?
    What if you don't really believe in God's power through the priest?
    What if etc., etc.

    I'd like to see the "docuмent" you read "that suggested that we have to pay
    back our mortal sins in purgatory."  You do not "pay back mortal sins" really, but
    what you do is make appropriate reparation for some aspect of the temporal
    punishment due to those sins.


    MyrnaM gave a good example with the broken window, above.  

    In the infinite mercy of God, the saints have by now done a lot of penance
    already, and there are saints alive today who are doing more penance already
    than they need for themselves and their own temporal punishment.  God's
    mercy allows the Church to use that treasury of graces from the saints and
    apply it to those of us who are weaker in our practice of penance, to make up
    for our shortcomings.  Even in the most extreme case we are not able to do
    enough penance in this life to satisfy for our mortal sins, and it is the perfect
    sufferings of Our Lord on the Cross that is the ultimate source of our
    redemption.  

    But what about the saints?  They have participated in His act of redemption,
    based on the perfect (literally) example of Our Lady at the foot of the Cross.  

    This is a great meditation for Lent!


    An excellent priest I know explains it this way:

    Some of us are able to do sufficient penance to satisfy the need for our own
    personal participation in the perfect sufferings of Jesus for the forgiveness of
    our sins, and the remission of temporal punishment contingent on those sins
    (like paying for MyrnaM's broken window).  Others are able to do enough for
    themselves, and also for some number of others, friends or family, or even
    strangers they have selected.  

    (St. Therese of Lisieux is an example, when she saw a criminal in the news,
    whose conversion she prayed for night and day until his execution, and then
    she read the news that at the last moment, after he had been very rude to
    the priest who attended his final hours, some kind of change came over him
    and he stopped his abuses and looked at the crucifix the priest held before
    him, and kissed it reverently, and then went to his death moments later in
    peace and acceptance of this fate.  The Little Flower was overjoyed with the
    conviction that her prayers had won his repentance, and no one told her that
    it was not true.)

    Continuing --- and others are able to assist with the conversion and salvation
    of many people, as the great saints, like St. Philomena, St. Benedict, St.
    Anthony of Padua (or of Lisbon, depending on whose side you're on), St.
    Ignatius Loyola, any one of the Apostles, St. Catherine, St. Lawrence, St.
    Patrick, St. Joseph, and on and on.  BUT THERE IS ONLY ONE saint whose
    penances and prayers are sufficient to convert and save the whole world, all
    the people of history -- and that one saint is the Mother of God, The Blessed
    Virgin Mary, Refuge of Sinners, Comforter of the Afflicted, Gate of Heaven,
    House of Gold and Help of Christians.  

    Quote

    7 Years for each sin.



    You have to be careful too, with equating earthly time with Purgatory, for there
    is no real connection between the two.  Long ago, there were indulgences for
    amounts of time:  days, years, quarantines (40 days of bread and water fasting),
    and the like, but that was changed sometime in the 60's, to reflect a more
    sound practice of "partial and penary indulgences."  For Purgatory exists outside
    of time as we know it, so to say "years" or "minutes" in Purgatory does not
    make any accurate sense.  A lot of confusing things came out of Vatican II but
    this was not among them.  It was actually a good change, because it helps us
    to learn what eternity is all about much better than the old system did.  

    There is no time in eternity, whether it be heaven or hell, for they are a fixed
    state of being that has no time, and yet we cannot really find a way in our
    limited language to speak about it because all of our verbs presume the the
    passage of time for them to be an "action."  We have no verbs in human
    language that are outside of time, except for the verb "to be."  

    Even so, there is some manner of duration, as it were, inherent to Purgatory,
    for it is a "temporary" thing, that is, a thing that has a limited aspect -- there is
    "light at the end of the tunnel," or we will see that we will one day be freed from
    it.  See?  I can't even describe it without some manner of time or action:  the
    word "temporary" involves "time."  "One day" implies the passage of days, or
    time. "At the end" implies a process that can be completed, and process implies
    time.  

    Also, those who go to Purgatory near the end of the world, in all justice,
    should be subject to the same fate as those who went there in previous
    centuries, but it's none of our business, as Our Lord tells us in the Gospel of
    the workers who were hired late in the day and still got the full day's pay.  

    This is a huge topic.



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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Do we pay back every sin in Purgatory
    « Reply #8 on: March 02, 2013, 10:56:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: voxxpopulisuxx

    what was the docuмent? Purgatory is only for un-remitted venial sins.


    Purgatory is not for the sins, per se, but for the temporal punishment due
    to sin.  Anyone who dies without being sorry for his venial sins has a pretty
    serious problem, for it could be a mortal sin to be pertinaciously unrepentant.  
    And perfect contrition makes up for any gaps, as it is sufficient to effect the
    forgiveness of even mortal sins.  But it is not something that anyone can
    presume will be theirs, for that is a sin of presumption, which can be mortal
    itself.

    Therefore, since there is temporal punishment due to mortal sin as well as
    to venial sin, Purgatory applies to the forgiveness of mortal AND venial sins,
    that is, it applies to the temporal punishment associated with the forgiveness
    of those sins.

    We cannot ever expect to redeem ourselves by our own works.  It is the
    perfect sufferings of Jesus in His Passion and Death that is our salvation.  

    And more than that, for He did not even have to suffer and die so for us to
    have been redeemed.  Think about that at the next Stations of the Cross.  
    He went through all that VOLUNTARILY, with perfect submission (as a human
    being) to the will of God (which was also His will as the Second Person of the
    Blessed Trinity).  Any mere human would never have taken on such torments
    if he did not have to do so.  That alone proves that He is God.


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    Offline InfiniteFaith

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    Do we pay back every sin in Purgatory
    « Reply #9 on: March 02, 2013, 11:01:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: voxxpopulisuxx
    Quote from: InfiniteFaith
    Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Quote from: InfiniteFaith
    If we go to confession and confess our sins do we still pay them back in Purgatory? Or are we given a clean slate and only responsible for the sins that we die with?



    If I understand your question as it is in your mind, this is really basic
    catechism material, that you should have learned before receiving First
    Holy Communion in the Roman Rite.  Of course, if you received it in the
    Eastern Rite, it would likely have been as a child before the age of
    reason, but the tradition there is to keep the children in classes
    throughout childhood so they learn as they grow.  

    Have you been to Confession yet?  Or are you a convert?  Or are you
    taking instruction?  Have you been baptized?  Are you a catechumen?

    When the priest gives absolution in Confession he also gives a penance.  
    Do you know anything about why he always gives a penance?  I say
    "always," because that is actually an alternative name for this:  the
    Sacrament of Penance.






    I didn't become a believer until just a few years ago. I was under the understanding that you are given a clean slate once you go to confession and you don't have to pay back those sins. But I just read a docuмent that suggested that we have to pay back our mortal sins in purgatory. 7 Years for each sin. It didn't make any sense because mortal sins send us to hell. There is no paying back mortal sins. Purgatory is for those that have no mortal sins. They are just paying back the venial sins that are on their conscience.

    what was the docuмent? Purgatory is only for un-remitted venial sins.

    http://www.catholickingdom.com/Cathedral/Poor%20Souls/sub_pages/population.html

    Offline voxxpopulisuxx

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    Do we pay back every sin in Purgatory
    « Reply #10 on: March 02, 2013, 11:05:16 PM »
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  • Is there not indulgences...and penances that absolve time in purgatory? Of course...so therefore not all sins have to be remitted. God promises to remember your sins no more under certain conditions. It is not presumption to trust Gods promises.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Do we pay back every sin in Purgatory
    « Reply #11 on: March 02, 2013, 11:34:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: voxxpopulisuxx
    Is there not indulgences...and penances that absolve time in purgatory? Of course...so therefore not all sins have to be remitted.


    Not so fast!  

    There are indulgences, yes, and there are penances that "absolve time" in
    Purgatory (a better way to say this would be penances that remit some portion
    or all of one soul's sufferings in Purgatory).  But that doesn't mean that not all
    sins have to be remitted.  

    All sins carry with them temporal punishment, and the sin is what is forgiven
    entirely in Confession.  Therefore they are remitted 100%.  It is their addendum
    or appendix, or also-ran Purgatory sentence that is remitted by indulgences or
    penances.  But it is USUALLY not 100%.  Most indulgences are not plenary.  Most
    penances are not sufficient.  


    Quote
    God promises to remember your sins no more under certain conditions. It is not presumption to trust God's promises.


    It's not presumption to trust God's promises, but it is presumption to think we
    can know how His promises apply in some particular situations.  We are only given
    to know SOME certain conditions, and we are only allowed to be sure of SOME
    applications.  

    We are assured of the validity of Baptism, for example, and of the Real
    Presence in the Blessed Sacrament.  And we are assured of God's not
    remembering our sins after they are forgiven.  But God's memory is perfect,
    so even after He has 'forgotten' them He does not forget that they were
    'forgotten' -- Why else would it be efficacious and beneficial to confess AGAIN
    sins that we believe were already forgiven
    before in Confession, sins that we
    feel may not have been adequately explained the first time, or sins that we are
    still worried about? -- For our inability to 'forget' about particular sins could well
    be the prompting of the Holy Ghost for us to confess them again, and to give
    another priest a chance to draw down the grace of counsel from God to give
    us spiritual direction!

    And then again, certain scruples regarding our guilt could be a veiled temptation
    of the devil, to make us closer to despair, for example, and only a good
    spiritual direction could ever sort out what is a valid scruple and what is not.

    St. Claude de la Columbiere was the confessor of St. Margaret Mary Alacoque,
    and he had to help her get over some scruples, but encouraged her with others.  

    Same with St. Therese of Lisieux.  Few saints in the Church were burdened with
    more scruples than the Little Flower.  She could be the patroness of those who
    are burdened with scruples!!  She is the PATRONESS of the MISSIONS, and she
    never so much as personally visited even ONE mission.  The Patroness of the
    Foreign Missions never ever went to a foreign mission!  It was all due to her
    prayers and sacrifices, little ones by our understanding, but since her voluntary
    assent to making them perfect was so close to being perfect, she is now the
    patroness of far-away places that she never saw in this life.



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