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Author Topic: Disputation of Bracelona  (Read 592 times)

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Offline Centroamerica

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Disputation of Bracelona
« on: May 15, 2016, 08:28:03 AM »
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  • The Disputation of Barcelona was a public debate organized by St. Raymond of Peñafort, O.P., Master of the Order of Preachers at that time. It was a debate between Judaism and Christianity held in 1263 in the royal palace of King James 1 of Aragon. The debate was between the Jєω that converted to Christianity and became a Dominican friar, Pablo Christiani, and the Kabbahlist and first zionist, Moshe ben Nahman.

    Needless to say, the Kabbahlist had a very distorted perception of theology and the Messiahs. Just skimming the surface, I could notice a half a dozen errors like: the Messiahs will institute universal earthly peace, free will will no longer exist as all will be forced to comply with the law, it is better to remain faithful to the Torah, and more naturalistic errors...

    If the Jєωs would have looked at this from the supernatural perspective, I believe they would see how Christianity is in concordance with the prophesies. There can be no earthly universal peace so long as you are in a battle for your soul, but the Beatific Vision does exclude sin. The followers of the Torah are completely submerged in naturalism.

    I could only imagine what it would be like to be able to attend that debate.

    While reading, however, I did come across one passage that seems troublesome. It was on a wikipedia page and claims the following (while siting no source, of course):

    "On the Jєωιѕн Sabbath following the close of the debate, the king, together with many preaching friars and other clergy, visited the ѕуηαgσgυє." (link- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_of_Penyafort )


    The first problem I see here is that the wiki page does not state who won the debate. It is a historical fact that the Dominicans claimed victory and after this the Kabbalist was exiled from Aragon and went to the Holy Land where he died as one of the first zionist. But what is claimed by this wiki page is completely unimaginable! After a public debate organized by a great Dominican saint between a converted Jєω and a so-called Rabbi, the clergy and king went into the ѕуηαgσgυє on the Jєωιѕн sabbath??? This is the middle ages we are talking about. First, if St. Raymond of Pennafort would've authorized this, he would never have been canonized by any pope. Second, the bad impression of the clergy upon the converted Jєω would've been tremendous. After a public debate between a converted Jєω and a rabbi, the Christian clergy and king went into the ѕуηαgσgυє on the sabbath??? It sounds like public en masse apostasy. There would've been serious consequences to such an act and the Dominicans would've lost the support of the papacy and respect of the people.








    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Disputation of Bracelona
    « Reply #1 on: May 15, 2016, 09:03:09 AM »
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  • Why not, if you are positive about your information, join wikipedia and edit the info. compiled there?  

    I myself am not qualified, but others here I know are very qualified to input truthful information.  

    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Disputation of Bracelona
    « Reply #2 on: May 15, 2016, 09:17:41 AM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Why not, if you are positive about your information, join wikipedia and edit the info. compiled there?  

    I myself am not qualified, but others here I know are very qualified to input truthful information.  



    I tried that once before, but I wasn't able to do it. I may give it another try.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Incredulous

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    Disputation of Bracelona
    « Reply #3 on: May 15, 2016, 10:26:10 AM »
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  • Wiki was invented by the Jєωs as a public forum for them to re-write history.

    The "children of the devil" know nothing better than the art of lying.

    If there is truth to this statement:


       "... the Kabbalist was exiled from Aragon and went to the Holy Land where he died as one of the first zionist."

    I would take it as a failing in the "Duty of State" by the Catholic authorities at the time.
    The Kabbalist (i.e., satanist) should have been imprisoned, at least.

    To allow the satanic evangelist to travel to the Holy Land to be the first representive of zionism was clearly a fatal mistake.


    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Disputation of Bracelona
    « Reply #4 on: May 15, 2016, 10:57:33 AM »
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  • Quote from: Incredulous


    Wiki was invented by the Jєωs as a public forum for them to re-write history.

    The "children of the devil" know nothing better than the art of lying.

    If there is truth to this statement:


       "... the Kabbalist was exiled from Aragon and went to the Holy Land where he died as one of the first zionist."

    I would take it as a failing in the "Duty of State" by the Catholic authorities at the time.
    The Kabbalist (i.e., satanist) should have been imprisoned, at least.

    To allow the satanic evangelist to travel to the Holy Land to be the first representive of zionism was clearly a fatal mistake.




    In their defense, Zionism was not a known idea or even a word in the vocabulary of others. It was more than likely detrmined that the Kabbalist would be exiled from Aragon and die somewhere in North Africa.

    It would also be likely that the terms of the debate were agreed on beforehand. So it wasn't like ok he lost and he's going to the Holy Land. It was more like he left and went to the Holy Land.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Disputation of Bracelona
    « Reply #5 on: May 15, 2016, 01:10:24 PM »
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  • Well, I did find this, which is very interesting. I should say that I should warn of some small details that may be off. It seems that the real problem here is that this particular Jєω wrote his experiences of the Disputacion and that is what the historians are going by, but some details do not seem very likely to me. The most I could determine is that, maybe, the King James of Aragon was indeed a judaizer. This seems probable. This short video shows some interesting details of the Disputation, but some are certain to be inaccurate...

    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...