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Author Topic: Dimond brothers  (Read 9923 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Dimond brothers
« Reply #60 on: July 11, 2019, 08:49:11 AM »
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  • But the Great Monarch has in fact arrived.

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    Online Mithrandylan

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    Re: Dimond brothers
    « Reply #61 on: July 11, 2019, 09:36:21 AM »
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  • I have listened to and researched 90 percent of the Dimond's material and I can't find any heresy or error. Sure, they have a lot of opinions on prophecy, that are neither here nor there. Their opinions on prophecy are very interesting, but not infallible. I have read from those who try to "debunk" the Dimonds and their material is nonsense. I challenge someone to post something credible that refutes them point by point. These two totally shred all of their opponents. I am not a "devotee of the Dimonds", but i am a student of the Church for over 30 years. Theses two aren't going to win any popularity contests by their "bedside  manor", but hey, the truth hurts sometimes. On the subject of the faith they don't invent anything. They just bring up dogma and doctrine that has already been settled or proclaimed.
    .
    How exactly have you researched their positions?  As a "student of the Church" one would suspect that you have access to approved, pre-conciliar works on various topics they address: baptism, heresy, etc. You've really not ever come across anything in any Catholic material in tension with the Dimond's material?
    .
    Rejecting the salvific quality of baptism of desire is their most glaring error.  They err not just in their rejection but also as Ladislaus pointed out, in their conviction that baptism of desire is heretical.  This means that the whole magisterium has maintained soteriological error for at least four centuries.  For, since Trent at least, baptism of desire has been affirmed by everyone who has taught on the matter.
    .
    I was also surprised, several years ago, to discover that even their case for sedevacantism is a wreck.  Their argument revolves around a lack of supernatural faith on the part of the conciliar claimants, and they argue that this lack constitutes their non-membership.  This is the kind of nonsense one ends up committed to when one develops a disdain for the ordinary magisterium.  It is abundantly clear within the Tridentine tradition, especially since Pope Pius XII's Mystici Corporis Christi (but really since Bellarmine's de Controversiis) that supernatural faith is not a condition of Church membership. 
    .
    Of course they present themselves as just "bringing up dogma and doctrine that has already been settled or proclaimed" but they do it in a very crude, used-car salesman way.  The Catholic faith cannot and is not reducible to a checklist of discrete anathemas; the ordinary magisterium constitutes the bulk of what we know to belong to the Catholic faith: the sainthoods of Ss. Peter, Paul, and more than a thousand years worth of saints; the existence of guardian angels, the efficacy of sacramentals, the perpetual virginity of the Virgin Mary, and so on.  Not to mention that what is solemnly defined is, per Vatican I, to be understood according to the way the Church understands it-- not in a vacuum "as it reads" or whatever other propagandic axioms the Zirconium boys like to circulate.  With the blinders off, it becomes quite evident that they present nothing other than their own spin on things and intellectually bully people into thinking that their understanding is the only true and obvious one.  Of course if that were true, then their whole apostolate would make no sense at all; one hardly needs a teacher or interpreter for what is obvious!
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Dimond brothers
    « Reply #62 on: July 12, 2019, 08:52:15 PM »
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  • .
    How exactly have you researched their positions?  As a "student of the Church" one would suspect that you have access to approved, pre-conciliar works on various topics they address: baptism, heresy, etc. You've really not ever come across anything in any Catholic material in tension with the Dimond's material?
    .
    Rejecting the salvific quality of baptism of desire is their most glaring error.  They err not just in their rejection but also as Ladislaus pointed out, in their conviction that baptism of desire is heretical.  This means that the whole magisterium has maintained soteriological error for at least four centuries.  For, since Trent at least, baptism of desire has been affirmed by everyone who has taught on the matter.
    .
    I was also surprised, several years ago, to discover that even their case for sedevacantism is a wreck.  Their argument revolves around a lack of supernatural faith on the part of the conciliar claimants, and they argue that this lack constitutes their non-membership.  This is the kind of nonsense one ends up committed to when one develops a disdain for the ordinary magisterium.  It is abundantly clear within the Tridentine tradition, especially since Pope Pius XII's Mystici Corporis Christi (but really since Bellarmine's de Controversiis) that supernatural faith is not a condition of Church membership.  
    .
    Of course they present themselves as just "bringing up dogma and doctrine that has already been settled or proclaimed" but they do it in a very crude, used-car salesman way.  The Catholic faith cannot and is not reducible to a checklist of discrete anathemas; the ordinary magisterium constitutes the bulk of what we know to belong to the Catholic faith: the sainthoods of Ss. Peter, Paul, and more than a thousand years worth of saints; the existence of guardian angels, the efficacy of sacramentals, the perpetual virginity of the Virgin Mary, and so on.  Not to mention that what is solemnly defined is, per Vatican I, to be understood according to the way the Church understands it-- not in a vacuum "as it reads" or whatever other propagandic axioms the Zirconium boys like to circulate.  With the blinders off, it becomes quite evident that they present nothing other than their own spin on things and intellectually bully people into thinking that their understanding is the only true and obvious one.  Of course if that were true, then their whole apostolate would make no sense at all; one hardly needs a teacher or interpreter for what is obvious!
    What form of Baptism of Desire do you mean by the way? The more traditional (a) wishing to be baptised counts as a baptism if you are unable to be baptised before death, or (b) the modernist "Jєωs can be secret Catholics and be saved"?

    Online Mithrandylan

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    Re: Dimond brothers
    « Reply #63 on: July 13, 2019, 10:23:59 AM »
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  • The sort of enlarged, elastic approach to EENS common in the Novus Ordo-- describing the Catholic Church as the "privileged path" like Robert Barron did to the Jєω Ben Shapiro-- is certainly a complete failing and dereliction of duty.  As to the exact limits of baptism of desire, my own personal opinion is that it is doubtful that anyone can be saved without explicit faith in the Trinity and the Incarnation, although an implicit desire for baptism (accompanied by an explicit faith in the Trinity and the Incarnation) would certainly suffice, per Saint Alphonsus.  Perhaps it is the case that an implicit faith in the mysteries would suffice in some instances, though that is far from certain and Tradition seems to weigh rather heavily on explicit faith at least in those two mysteries being necessary for salvation. 
    .
    The Dimonds' reject even this "narrower" view, though.  Yet this is the teaching of the Council of Trent; it isn't merely the teaching of the ordinary magisterium for the last five hundred years (perhaps even longer-- which alone suffices to prove the apostolicity of the doctrine), but it's right there in Trent.  Trent describes the catechumen as being capable of being justified before the sacrament is received. 
    .

    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Dimond brothers
    « Reply #64 on: July 13, 2019, 11:00:43 AM »
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  • The sort of enlarged, elastic approach to EENS common in the Novus Ordo-- describing the Catholic Church as the "privileged path" like Robert Barron did to the Jєω Ben Shapiro-- is certainly a complete failing and dereliction of duty.  As to the exact limits of baptism of desire, my own personal opinion is that it is doubtful that anyone can be saved without explicit faith in the Trinity and the Incarnation, although an implicit desire for baptism (accompanied by an explicit faith in the Trinity and the Incarnation) would certainly suffice, per Saint Alphonsus.  Perhaps it is the case that an implicit faith in the mysteries would suffice in some instances, though that is far from certain and Tradition seems to weigh rather heavily on explicit faith at least in those two mysteries being necessary for salvation.  
    .
    The Dimonds' reject even this "narrower" view, though.  Yet this is the teaching of the Council of Trent; it isn't merely the teaching of the ordinary magisterium for the last five hundred years (perhaps even longer-- which alone suffices to prove the apostolicity of the doctrine), but it's right there in Trent.  Trent describes the catechumen as being capable of being justified before the sacrament is received.  
    .
    This is very good and I agree with all of it except the “privileged path” stuff is not a dereliction of duty, but is blatantly heretical. 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Dimond brothers
    « Reply #65 on: July 13, 2019, 11:20:48 AM »
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  • This is very good and I agree with all of it except the “privileged path” stuff is not a dereliction of duty, but is blatantly heretical.
    Its horribly worded (the privileged path bit) but I'm curious what dogma it explicitly denies.  The closest would seem to be "Outside the Church there is no salvation" but that *could* be parsed with fine distinctions.

    Not defending Barron, to be clear.  I think he was way off.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Dimond brothers
    « Reply #66 on: July 13, 2019, 11:42:29 AM »
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  • The sort of enlarged, elastic approach to EENS common in the Novus Ordo-- describing the Catholic Church as the "privileged path" like Robert Barron did to the Jєω Ben Shapiro-- is certainly a complete failing and dereliction of duty. 

    No, I'm afraid not.  It's much more than that.  It amounts to an objectively heretical denial of EENS.

    Online Mithrandylan

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    Re: Dimond brothers
    « Reply #67 on: July 13, 2019, 12:00:08 PM »
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  • Quod and Lad,

    I'm quite open to it being heretical; not recalling exactly what was said (but just the tenor and gist of it) I didn't want to overstep my memory.  As Byzcat said, heresy requires a direct doubt or denial of some de fide teaching and in this case I was not sure how direct it was.  Which is a point simply to how one categorizes what Barron said. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Dimond brothers
    « Reply #68 on: July 13, 2019, 12:06:57 PM »
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  • Quod and Lad,

    I'm quite open to it being heretical; not recalling exactly what was said (but just the tenor and gist of it) I didn't want to overstep my memory.  As Byzcat said, heresy requires a direct doubt or denial of some de fide teaching and in this case I was not sure how direct it was.  Which is a point simply to how one categorizes what Barron said.

    That's why I said objectively heretical.  If in point of fact the position articulated guts the dogma of any meaning, then it's heretical.  It reduces EENS to a "meaningless formula" and effectively guts the dogma.  If some atheistic Jєω like Shapiro can be saved, then there's no one who can't be.  So EENS becomes a mere tautology.  You can't be saved unless you're in the Church, but if you're saved then it must mean you are in the Church.  But anyone can be saved.  Therefore anyone can be within the Church.  It turns EENS into a pathetic joke.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Dimond brothers
    « Reply #69 on: July 13, 2019, 12:18:39 PM »
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  • Quote
    As Byzcat said, heresy requires a direct doubt or denial of some de fide teaching 
    You are confusing a heretical statement with a heretical person.   What you describe above is related to a person’s intent or personal understanding of truth.  What Ladislaus describes is the fact of heresy itself, which exists regardless of the person’s intent.  This is why we are OBLIGATED to have a well formed conscience.  Without one, many people are heretics and don’t even know it.  They are OBJECTIVELY in error even if they may not want to be.  They still sin due to ignorance because God will enlighten us if we pray, therefore those in ignorance are so because of a punishment from God.  

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Dimond brothers
    « Reply #70 on: July 13, 2019, 01:16:01 PM »
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  • That's why I said objectively heretical.  If in point of fact the position articulated guts the dogma of any meaning, then it's heretical.  It reduces EENS to a "meaningless formula" and effectively guts the dogma.  If some atheistic Jєω like Shapiro can be saved, then there's no one who can't be.  So EENS becomes a mere tautology.  You can't be saved unless you're in the Church, but if you're saved then it must mean you are in the Church.  But anyone can be saved.  Therefore anyone can be within the Church.  It turns EENS into a pathetic joke.
    Given Barron has also said that there is hope that Hell is empty, I think it's safe to say it's more than "objectively" heretical. 
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Dimond brothers
    « Reply #71 on: July 13, 2019, 01:22:18 PM »
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  • This is very good and I agree with all of it except the “privileged path” stuff is not a dereliction of duty, but is blatantly heretical.
    I don't believe this "bishop" ever had a legitimate duty to abandon in the first place.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Dimond brothers
    « Reply #72 on: July 13, 2019, 01:53:09 PM »
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  • That's why I said objectively heretical.  If in point of fact the position articulated guts the dogma of any meaning, then it's heretical.  It reduces EENS to a "meaningless formula" and effectively guts the dogma.  If some atheistic Jєω like Shapiro can be saved, then there's no one who can't be.  So EENS becomes a mere tautology.  You can't be saved unless you're in the Church, but if you're saved then it must mean you are in the Church.  But anyone can be saved.  Therefore anyone can be within the Church.  It turns EENS into a pathetic joke.
    To be clear, I don't believe any atheists can be saved.  

    The meaningless formula thing comes from an encyclical from Pope Pius XII.  Which as far as I understand, wouldn't be infallible.  So I'm not sure how that could be used to determine that particular views of EENS are heretical.

    And to be clear, again, I'm not defending Barron, just trying to understand how exactly we're distinguishing heresy (outright condemned by the Church) with merely extremely implausible imprudence

    Online Mithrandylan

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    Re: Dimond brothers
    « Reply #73 on: July 14, 2019, 01:01:37 PM »
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  • You are confusing a heretical statement with a heretical person.   What you describe above is related to a person’s intent or personal understanding of truth. 
    .
    I pretty squarely had just the proposition in mind-- ergo my response focused on whether the proposition was directly in denial or doubt of a dogma.  I said nothing about intention, and don't really care about the intention since the question I was responding to was about the proverbial limits of baptism of desire, and Barron's relevance to the question was quite ancillary.
    .
    That's why I said objectively heretical.  If in point of fact the position articulated guts the dogma of any meaning, then it's heretical.  It reduces EENS to a "meaningless formula" and effectively guts the dogma.  If some atheistic Jєω like Shapiro can be saved, then there's no one who can't be.  So EENS becomes a mere tautology.  You can't be saved unless you're in the Church, but if you're saved then it must mean you are in the Church.  But anyone can be saved.  Therefore anyone can be within the Church.  It turns EENS into a pathetic joke.
    .
    Heresy is a direct doubt or denial of some de fide proposition.  Something that is objectively heretical would, then, directly doubt or deny some de fide proposition.  I am not defending Barron since as 2VT pointed out he is rather famously Balthasarian in his soteriology, which for my money is ultimately irreconcilable with the necessity of the Church for salvation.  But heresy has a specific meaning and I think, especially given its relevance today, we should be ready to distinguish an heretical proposition from one that is a different category of error.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Dimond brothers
    « Reply #74 on: July 14, 2019, 01:02:58 PM »
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  • To be clear, I don't believe any atheists can be saved.  

    The meaningless formula thing comes from an encyclical from Pope Pius XII.  Which as far as I understand, wouldn't be infallible.  So I'm not sure how that could be used to determine that particular views of EENS are heretical.

    And to be clear, again, I'm not defending Barron, just trying to understand how exactly we're distinguishing heresy (outright condemned by the Church) with merely extremely implausible imprudence
    As much as modernists like to twist it to make it so, it is impossible to reconcile "outside of the Church there is no salvation" and "people outside of the Church can be saved". EENS could not possibly be worded more clearly.