Author Topic: A question about "martyrs" (Read 1910 times)

Stubborn · « **Reply #30 on:** February 27, 2013, 05:12:19 PM »

Quote from: brainglitch

Quote from: Stubborn
The main thing to remember is from the OP where one died without the faith, "martyred" for the anti-Catholic New Order.

Speculating that a deathbed conversion happened, or might have occurred, or could have happened or maybe this or possibly that to one whose conviction against the truth was so strong that he died for a false religion is ridiculous.

The NO is not the Catholic faith, it is here to destroy, if that were possible, the Catholic faith. Those who die defending it die an enemy, not a saint.

Those workers in the Vineyard all performed the same works but to different degrees, the same job just for different lengths of time - - - the NO works oppose Catholic works, the NO's job is to destroy the Church, not help it grow - so we do not apply the parable to those who die for any other faith.

Many Novus Ordoites, who were validly baptized, have been martyred in Africa, China and Indonesia in recent years for believing in Jesus Christ.

You say that all of these people-who were not martyred for being Novus Ordo, but for believing in Christ-they all went to hell?

The Church teaches:
"He who does not have Holy Mother for their Church cannot have God for their Father."

"They can give alms, praise the Lord in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost all the want, fast, do penance and give all their possessions to the poor, but unless they die within the Church they will never make it to heaven."

The OP had no faith, so why do people here think that person would have had a last instant conversion I do not know - the Church certainly does not teach anyone to rely on such a thing - the NO church does all the time - and worse, but not the Catholic Church. If it ever happens even one time out of 100 billion, we will never know in this world.

Mithrandylan · « **Reply #31 on:** February 27, 2013, 05:24:47 PM »

I think the OP is a great question.

One might pose a similar question, as to whether or not a protestant or Orthodox Christian could make it to Heaven if he was martyred for believing in Jesus Christ.

The difference here is that a NO Catholic (differentiated from a plain liberal, as Anthony Benedict rightfully pointed out earlier) thinks he believes the true faith. In some aspects he probably does. And even greater a difference, he thinks he believes the true faith because the men that the VAST (we're talking like a billion people here) majority of self labeled Catholics (whether they are or aren't is another matter) reinforce this belief, and some of them even do so in good will. This is, of course, diabolical disorientation, but the waters remain muddied nevertheless.

I tend to think that among good intentioned Novus Ordites, we will see a great manifestation of God's mercy come Judgement Day.

I don't think there's any simple blanket answer to the question. It isn't comparable to a protestant or Orthodox 'martyrdom' because the NO Catholic actually thinks and believes that he is holding the Catholic faith. An Orthodox or prot may believe that he is holding the TRUE faith (though he is obviously not) but still rejects (explicitly) the Catholic faith, and would not admit to being a Catholic. A NO Catholic believes he has the TRUE faith (which is the Catholic faith) and recognizes that the only true faith IS the Catholic faith-- his error is an intellectual one.

Again, this is a complicated issue.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #32 on:** February 27, 2013, 06:07:38 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn The OP had no faith, so why do people here think that person would have had a last instant conversion I do not know[quote

People who plan themselves to have a death bed conversion, probably will never have one, because we can not mock God. However, if a person described above has someone praying for them...say a parent, God can have mercy on the parent and answer their prayer. Our Blessed Mother said, most souls go the Hell because there is no one to pray for them. That says to me, that if we pray for our lost loved ones, we can have hope that God will infuse them with the necessary graces, even at their last moments.

ora pro me · « **Reply #33 on:** February 27, 2013, 07:01:59 PM »

Forgive me if these points have already been mentioned.....

Many NO Catholics are devoted to Our Lady, her rosary and some even practice True Devotion to Jesus through Mary. Our Lady will certainly intercede for her devoted followers.

Also, the older NO followers who made their First Fridays and/or First Saturdays while the Blessed Sacrament was still valid in their churches, will have the promises of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary. I believe this is often the reason why we hear of "death bed conversions" or why we hear about our Traditional Catholic priests being called by a loved one when a NO Catholic is on their deathbed.

I have heard of many instances of our Traditional Catholic priests going to the hospital for one of their parishioners and then being told by a nurse that another Catholic down the hall has asked for a priest. Often the NO priests don't come to the bedside of their parishioners and then the NO person's relative calls a true priest, perhaps not even knowing the real difference between the two. Maybe these individuals made their First Fridays decades ago before the changes took place.