Author Topic: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?  (Read 13168 times)

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Offline ggreg

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Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2015, 12:00:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: BTNYC
    Quote from: ggreg

    It's interesting to watch Russian children's cartoons made during the times of communism of which we own several hundred at least.  Not one has a political agenda and the moral stories in them are very noble.  Perhaps surprisingly none are trying to sell children on communism or Father Joe or anything else.




    Not to take this too far afield, and freely admitting that I'm no expert on the subject, but I don't think Soviet children's entertainment was entirely free from propaganda. What I'm thinking of specifically are the numerous children's fantasy and fairy tale films made in the 50's-60's, like Ilya Muromets and Jack Frost, which were beautifully made and, as you've said, largely pretty decent morality fables.

    But I think the lack of overt shilling for Communism is due more to that sort of ham-fisted approach having been rendered moot by ubiquity of Soviet propaganda in pretty much every other aspect of life. The propaganda in these children's films tended to be much subtler fare like the recurring trope of the wicked old hag, the Baba Yaga witch in the babooshka who mutters magic spells and eats children. This, I think, was a calculated attack on the piety of Russian grandmothers, the most likely source of Christian traditions and morality that the average mid-20th century Russian child had left to him.


    Baba Yaga has been documented in Slavic folklore since the mid 1700s and probably pre-dates that by several hundred years.

    Offline ggreg

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #16 on: January 23, 2015, 12:04:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: BTNYC
    Quote from: Thurifer

    And finally, what kind of agenda do you see in Disney movies?


    Too numerous to count - feminism, immodesty, effeminacy, disrespect of parental authority, materialism, consumerism... Pretty much every evil agenda at work in the pop culture at large is present and accounted for Disney's output, only toned down and repackaged for consumption by children.


    It's Friday evening and I am busy Thurifer.  If you cannot see an agenda in Disney movies then you are blinder than Stevie Wonder and deafer than Beethoven.


    Offline ggreg

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    Offline MaterDominici

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #18 on: January 23, 2015, 12:40:09 PM »
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  • Quote from: Magna opera Domini
    Would someone please report whether Fr. Gruner said "yes" or "no" to the question?  

    It doesn't take 12 minutes to answer such a simple question, and based on the comments below the video, it sounds like he never said a clear yes or no.  


    He said he does not know if Putin asked for a consecration, only that the topic of Fatima was brought up.
    "If I could only make the faithful sing the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Credo, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei ... that would be to me the finest triumph sacred music could have, for it is in really taking part in the liturgy that the faithful will preserve their devotion. I would take the Tantum ...

    Offline BTNYC

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #19 on: January 23, 2015, 12:51:28 PM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg
    Quote from: BTNYC
    Quote from: ggreg

    It's interesting to watch Russian children's cartoons made during the times of communism of which we own several hundred at least.  Not one has a political agenda and the moral stories in them are very noble.  Perhaps surprisingly none are trying to sell children on communism or Father Joe or anything else.




    Not to take this too far afield, and freely admitting that I'm no expert on the subject, but I don't think Soviet children's entertainment was entirely free from propaganda. What I'm thinking of specifically are the numerous children's fantasy and fairy tale films made in the 50's-60's, like Ilya Muromets and Jack Frost, which were beautifully made and, as you've said, largely pretty decent morality fables.

    But I think the lack of overt shilling for Communism is due more to that sort of ham-fisted approach having been rendered moot by ubiquity of Soviet propaganda in pretty much every other aspect of life. The propaganda in these children's films tended to be much subtler fare like the recurring trope of the wicked old hag, the Baba Yaga witch in the babooshka who mutters magic spells and eats children. This, I think, was a calculated attack on the piety of Russian grandmothers, the most likely source of Christian traditions and morality that the average mid-20th century Russian child had left to him.


    Baba Yaga has been documented in Slavic folklore since the mid 1700s and probably pre-dates that by several hundred years.


    Yes, I'm not unaware of that fact. What I was referring to was the preponderance of depictions of this stock character in the children's films of the period.
     


    Offline Thurifer

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #20 on: January 23, 2015, 12:52:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg
    Quote from: BTNYC
    Quote from: Thurifer

    And finally, what kind of agenda do you see in Disney movies?


    Too numerous to count - feminism, immodesty, effeminacy, disrespect of parental authority, materialism, consumerism... Pretty much every evil agenda at work in the pop culture at large is present and accounted for Disney's output, only toned down and repackaged for consumption by children.


    It's Friday evening and I am busy Thurifer.  If you cannot see an agenda in Disney movies then you are blinder than Stevie Wonder and deafer than Beethoven.


    Sorry Greg. I did not mean to burden you with my silly questions. I read your post with interest and was simply trying to learn more by contrast. How can I appreciate what YOU are saying about Russian cartoons I have not seen without understanding what YOU see as an agenda in Disney movies? Just looking to bring your original point into focus if it might be possible by way of extension from recognizing the agenda present in Disney films.

    Thanks to BTNYC for providing some great conceptual archetypes from which I can begin my task. I could never encapsulate those as easy as you have done, BTNYC, not that I don't see them at work when watching.

    Maybe I am deaf and blind, Greg. But truth be told, I don't even see those things as an agenda anymore but more of a reflection of a reality that already exists. And yes, I understand the value of confirmation of existing mores.

    Either way, it looks like you provided links for some of the Russian Toons. Thanks for that.

    Offline BTNYC

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #21 on: January 23, 2015, 12:55:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg
    Lots on Youtube

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZWffqNHnOms


    http://youtube.com/watch?v=Huu4c6DoZ_4


    Thanks for the links. Having only been exposed to the live-action stuff of the period, I'm curious to have a look at these. They look similarly beautifully made.

    Offline Meg

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #22 on: January 23, 2015, 01:08:20 PM »
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  • I watched the link for the first cartoon, called "Bag full of apples." It's very nice, and it does have a good moral to it, as well as being very family-oriented. Much better than most of the American cartoons I was raised with. I'm pleasantly surprised by the Russian cartoon.


    Offline MaterDominici

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #23 on: January 23, 2015, 01:12:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg
    Lots on Youtube

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZWffqNHnOms


    http://youtube.com/watch?v=Huu4c6DoZ_4


    My kids give this post five thumbs up.

    The even like the one without subtitles.  :smirk:
    "If I could only make the faithful sing the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Credo, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei ... that would be to me the finest triumph sacred music could have, for it is in really taking part in the liturgy that the faithful will preserve their devotion. I would take the Tantum ...

    Offline ggreg

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #24 on: January 23, 2015, 03:45:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: Meg
    I watched the link for the first cartoon, called "Bag full of apples." It's very nice, and it does have a good moral to it, as well as being very family-oriented. Much better than most of the American cartoons I was raised with. I'm pleasantly surprised by the Russian cartoon.


    Notice the Rabbit has five children.

    The pope would consider him irresponsible.

    Online 2Vermont

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #25 on: January 23, 2015, 03:50:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg
    Quote from: Meg
    I watched the link for the first cartoon, called "Bag full of apples." It's very nice, and it does have a good moral to it, as well as being very family-oriented. Much better than most of the American cartoons I was raised with. I'm pleasantly surprised by the Russian cartoon.


    Notice the Rabbit has five children.

    The pope would consider him irresponsible.


     :roll-laugh2:
    If any one saith, that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, which the Catholic Church makes use of in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety, rather than offices of piety; let him be anathema. - Council of Trent


    Offline Croixalist

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #26 on: January 23, 2015, 06:05:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg
    Until you have evidence to the contrary why not take Putin at his word?  He has consistently said that Russia needs a moral backbone and a shared common culture.


    He's former KGB/FSB and a politician. Why would anyone take him at his word? I put him up there with all the other false conservatives out there. Every time they chase out Catholicism, the Russians commit treason. You've been sold a bill of goods.


    Quote
    I will accept he probably ordered the state sanctioned killing of Alexander Litvinenko.


    If you're a journalist and critical of Putin like Anna Stepanovna Politkovskaya, you instantly become more likely to die a violent death.

    Quote
    Putin has done absolutely nothing since his election to convince me that he wants to return Russia to the days of Soviet Communism. Sure, he has mentioned that that system, as bad as it was, did have certain advantages. But he has not waxed lyrical or praised Stalin or Lenin.


    He technically doesn't need to. The rest of Russian society does that for him. This brand of nationalism perfectly does away with any Catholic impulse. The Unorthodox Church serves as support of the State and the State only cares about the State and the elites who run it. The people were starved out and oppressed, their resistance was purged. It's a familiar story by now, no matter where you come from.

    I guess I missed the part where he dismantled the Russian Mafia. I missed the part where he disbanded the Communist Party. I missed the part where he took down all the communist symbols, especially the hammer and sickle, from places like say... Red Square? If they don't actively venerate Lenin, why do they still have his body on display at the Mausoleum? There was never a rejection of communist ideals, only a mild transference.

    I did however, catch the part where he routinely gobbled up the assets of multiple oligarchs and sent them off to prison without trial. I remember Yushchenko's face. I remember those golden words falling out of Putin's mouth "Above all, we should acknowledge that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a major geopolitical disaster of the century". Now I'll remember all those who are falling out of their chairs to agree with this man, glossing over not only the supreme material evils of the regime, but also the spiritual. Meanwhile the Mass of all time goes unmentioned amidst all this nationalism and nostalgia.

    I can't even tell Russia to go to Hell, they're already in it!

    Just because a starving man thinks that gnawing on a leather shoe is a full course meal, it does not mean we must adopt his point of view as healthy individuals. The old shoe of Russia nationalism will not suffice. The old shoe of the servile schismatic Russian Orthodox Church will not suffice. I'm not arguing that the USA has the right answer either, I'm simply reminding you guys that the Fatima message still stands. If Russia can convince you that they're really a Christian nation (which they are not), then what use will you have of Fatima? The answer is why Fatima is being put on the shelf by conservatives this time and not just the liberals.
    Fortuna finem habet.

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #27 on: January 23, 2015, 08:38:28 PM »
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  • ggreg:
    Quote
    What has Putin actually done that you consider to be particularly evil?


    I guess that is what I would ask myself and others too.  If Putin is as evil and phony as Croix paints him,  then I for one have run out of major world leaders in whom I can place even a modicum of trust.  I call Putin a Christian, a name which one can hardly apply to irreligious empty suits like Hollande, Merkel, Cameron, Biden and Obama.  I think ggreg makes some sense.  From now on, at least on this site, I think all be listening more closely to ggreg when it comes to issues touching modern Russia and Putin.  He seems to know what he's talking about.

    Offline Croixalist

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #28 on: January 23, 2015, 09:09:44 PM »
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  • The problem here is that everyone feels they must compare him to western politicians. This is a false dilemma, none of them are Catholic! Do not support Putin or Russia until a conversion to Catholicism takes place. It's like a comparative pragmatism has taken root over what was handed down by Our Lady.

    I don't care if ggreg comes from Moscow, it changes nothing.
     
    Fortuna finem habet.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #29 on: January 24, 2015, 12:41:36 AM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg
    Lots on Youtube

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZWffqNHnOms


    http://youtube.com/watch?v=Huu4c6DoZ_4


    Awwww!

    Adorable cartoons. I had not seen those. Thanks for sharing, Mr. Ggreg.  
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

     

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