Author Topic: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia? (Read 15357 times)

ggreg · « **Reply #1 on:** January 23, 2015, 02:31:27 AM »

This is the same Father Gruner who told Chris Ferrara than he had two letters from Cardinal Bergoglio thanking him for his materials on Fatima and acknowledging that the Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary still needed to be done?

He suggested in that faked "interview" that Francis's election was a positive development on this basis, a few days after the election.

I'd suggest confirmation bias. That Father Gruner has a tendency to see what he wants to see in order to support his own agenda.

Why on earth would Vladimir Putin man who left his own loyal wife of many years and the mother of his children to take up with an Olympic gymnast, 30 years younger than him, put any stock in a bizarre story from 1917 by Portuguese children?

And how on Earth would Father Gruner know this from half a world away?

Croixalist · « **Reply #2 on:** January 23, 2015, 03:18:11 AM »

I'll say the same thing about Gruner that I did for Kramer, I like him. He's done a lot for traditionalist Catholics out there. Occasionally I've seen him get spread a little thin on things I can't go along with, Garabandal comes to mind, but his intentions are good.

I have to admit being amazed at how effective Russian propaganda has been at luring in the conservative crowd. We need to remind ourselves on a daily basis that Russia has zero interest in preserving Catholic culture. Even before the revolution, the "Orthodox" purged what they could of the Church from their communities.

All of a sudden, they say "no homo" and get crowned as the bastion of Christianity? Now they can say "Fatima" all they want, but as long as they remain unconsecrated, everything is wasted breath. Anyone can see Francis isn't going to follow through on a single thing from the seers. The only reason I see Putin ever tossing such a softball pitch to Bergog Magog is to make a show of the swing and a miss.

ggreg · « **Reply #3 on:** January 23, 2015, 04:33:14 AM »

It's not quite as simple as "no homo".

Russia are very different from the west and in my experience of travelling the world as meeting very different people you can always learn something.

So, for example, the pagan Japanese are very different and there are all sorts of things you could detest about their culture but there are some things you can admire, (their clean streets and lack of petty theft and person code of honour, for example).

Russians are not Europeans and they don't have a European mindset. They experienced 70 years of communism and when that broke they almost broke down as a society because they were searching for a value system, which nobody alive in Russia had ever experienced on a societal level. I lived there and saw it first hand.

Putin is a nationalist and a patriot who cares about his people and his country and does not want to see them corrupted and weak and exploited. He does not want global corporations taking over, paying no taxes and bribing Russian politicians to maintain the status quo, which Russia would be very prone to because so few Russians have the mentality to protest or demand change. They are stubborn and extremely fatalistic and resigned to accept their lot in life.

They are also very VERY unconcerned about the common good. As long as their nest is, feathered, they lose no sleep about the strangers next door going without.

He knows that and he can see western values will destroy his country as they would be even more slavishly attached to them than we are. Look at Pussy Riot and just how degenerate Russian women are when they degenerate. Russians don't do moderate. They don't do lukewarm. If they have 50,000 dollars they don't buy a 10,000 car and put 40,000 away for a rainy day, they buy a 40,000 dollar car and a 10,000 dollar foreign luxury holiday and are broke until the next big payday.

I don't think Putin has a secret Agenda. I think he is an honest actor who knows he has to replace Russia's moral spine with some Philosophy that can make the nation function. Russian Orthodoxy is the best choice.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KndjFXRLmJk

Croixalist · « **Reply #4 on:** January 23, 2015, 06:06:18 AM »

If it isn't more complicated than that, no one here has shown otherwise. He says "God" and you believe him, he says "anti-gαy" and he's practically been sainted already.

Of course they don't have our mindset, we have theirs. It only took us a few more generations to get there but now that we've reached our own godless summit of existence, we realize how much we traded off to be part of their empire. And it is their empire. They hit us hard with the greatest weapons they had * the sɛҳuąƖ revolution being the final headshot * and from that point on you could say it was all just a foregone conclusion. Impurity doesn't need a great deal of effort to promote, but the tried and true soviet formula of setting up self-declared proletariats in every single dark corner of American life has resulted in massive self-hatred, confusion and delusion.

Yes we've become a monster, but one that cannot fight back against our communist progenitors. They made sure we received the mind of a stunted child and limbs stretched out so thin that we can't walk on our own.

Now I can't speak on the nuances of Russian cultural life, but statistically I can tell what they aren't. All I see here is people bending over backwards to justify, make excuses for, or blatantly promote (without hard data) the propaganda coming out of Russia. As for Putin, whether you think that plastic, botox-injected face has any vestige of integrity is up to you. He certainly is a nationalist, and when was the last time that nation stood for Catholicism? A nation that has the world record for forced starvations, political assassinations and abortions? Yes, I judge him based on his pseudo-Orthodox commitment to a pseudo-Christian nation and his non-commitment to the true Catholic faith.

"Oh but at least he's not a GLBT promoter!" Well I ask you: what has this man ever done for the Church that has aided the .1% of Catholics in his country or beyond? Let me remind you that there are more Jєωs than Catholics in Russia and that Israelis don't need visas if their stay is under 90 days... Just in case you feel like telling me Putin has taken care of the "Jєω" problem.

Why waste another paragraph praising this guy in a Catholic forum?

This phenomenon continues to amaze me among trads!

ggreg · « **Reply #5 on:** January 23, 2015, 07:19:06 AM »

We certainly don't have their mindset.

Nobody who has any experience of Russians would think that Western Europeans have much similarity to Russians mindset wise.

That is a ridiculous statement.

Icelanders and Italians, Mexicans and Germans are far closer in their mindset than Russians and Western Europeans.

This is why a majority of Russians support Putin. They don't trust the EU or the USA.

Croixalist · « **Reply #6 on:** January 23, 2015, 08:05:27 AM »

Quote from: ggreg

We certainly don't have their mindset.

Nobody who has any experience of Russians would think that Western Europeans have much similarity to Russians mindset wise.

That is a ridiculous statement.

Icelanders and Italians, Mexicans and Germans are far closer in their mindset than Russians and Western Europeans.

This is why a majority of Russians support Putin. They don't trust the EU or the USA.

You're missing the forest for the trees on this one. All those nations are godless. Russia has been doing it for much longer though and as the author of nearly all of it abroad, there isn't much to stop them if they want to make a real power play.

We don't have to be the same in all our peculiarities.

I realize that I'm speaking to someone with strong ties to Russia, fierce sympathies toward Putin and who was just quoted as saying "Russian Orthodoxy is the best choice." So be it! What I am proposing is not practical. VII Catholicism will never evolve back into true Catholicism and neither will Russian Orthodoxy. We do need a miracle, but by the grace of God we know what it will be and where it will come from. It will be the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart and it will come from a true Pope and true Bishops of our true Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Then we'll talk about Putin... a Catholic Putin! :dwarf:

ggreg · « **Reply #7 on:** January 23, 2015, 09:34:38 AM »

Until you have evidence to the contrary why not take Putin at his word? He has consistently said that Russia needs a moral backbone and a shared common culture.

I don't distrust Pope Francis purely because he is an Argentinian Novus Ordo Priest and Bishop. I distrusted him from the day he was elected because he had already done things that were completely inconsistent with Catholic orthodoxy such as presiding at irreligious puppet masses for children, being prayed over by Protestants and praying with Jєωs. Those things are strong evidence that he is a modernist.

Francis has been a consistent modernist since.

Putin has done absolutely nothing since his election to convince me that he wants to return Russia to the days of Soviet Communism. Sure, he has mentioned that that system, as bad as it was, did have certain advantages. But he has not waxed lyrical or praised Stalin or Lenin.

Had Hitler sued for peace in 1943/44, I am absolutely sure that there would be a certain amount of nostaligia about nαzι Germany now. Had Stalin's purges continued until the 1980s I am sure that waving the hammer and sickle around today would be far more unwelcome.

What has Putin actually done that you consider to be particularly evil?

I will accept he probably ordered the state sanctioned killing of Alexander Litvinenko. Given the use of Polonium and his seniority in the FSB historically I think the balance of probability is that he knew about this and possibly even gave the orders.

What of it? Are you so naive as to think Britain and America, France or Germany would allow a top intelligence officer in their secret services to betray them?

The rules of the secret services are clear and betraying your country is, and has long been, a potentially capital crime. You think the CIA wasn't bumping off traitors in the McCarthy era?

Do you accuse Henry V of England as a murderer because he has the traitors excuted who have tried to betray him to France? Clearly states have the power of life and death over their citizens under certain circuмstances. The rules are clear. You don't enter into the secret services and then use what you know to betray your country. That seems fair enough.

Meg · « **Reply #8 on:** January 23, 2015, 10:06:35 AM »

Quote from: ggreg

I don't think Putin has a secret Agenda. I think he is an honest actor who knows he has to replace Russia's moral spine with some Philosophy that can make the nation function. Russian Orthodoxy is the best choice.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KndjFXRLmJk

In the video, the translator said something about the ideology (of communism?) making distortions, but I don't really understand what was said, as it didn't make clear sense. Could you explain what was said?

ggreg · « **Reply #9 on:** January 23, 2015, 10:43:08 AM »

He said that communism took some of the values of the Bible and distorted them. The word he uses is more like de-anchors or detaches. Removes from their anchor point.

Then when it collapsed there was a void. A class of people came to power whose ethos was kill or being killed, get rich or die trying. These people had no respect for laws or morals, judges could be bought, policemen bribed and the only thing standing in your way was other groups chasing the same piece of pie you were chasing. Either you killed them or they killed you, or you scared them off or they scared you off or you made an alliance until such time that you had the power to break it. For 20 years it was like 1930s Chicago with the mob in charge, but worse because even the mob kept changing.

Thus what I believe he is trying to say is that values not anchored to something are worthless and impossible to unite society to.

This is the biggest problem with Russian and other ex-Soviet immigrants to Europe. They don't respect our systems of justice and social mores because back in their country those particular systems were corrupt to the core. On the other hand there was no ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ agenda and no obvious media agenda either.

It's interesting to watch Russian children's cartoons made during the times of communism of which we own several hundred at least. Not one has a political agenda and the moral stories in them are very noble. Perhaps surprisingly none are trying to sell children on communism or Father Joe or anything else.

Whereas in Disney and Pixar movies, there is a very noticeable agenda.

So that is one error we certainly invented ourselves.

Magna opera Domini · « **Reply #10 on:** January 23, 2015, 10:56:15 AM »

Would someone please report whether Fr. Gruner said "yes" or "no" to the question?

It doesn't take 12 minutes to answer such a simple question, and based on the comments below the video, it sounds like he never said a clear yes or no.

Meg · « **Reply #11 on:** January 23, 2015, 11:04:21 AM »

Quote from: ggreg

He said that communism took some of the values of the Bible and distorted them. The word he uses is more like de-anchors or detaches. Removes from their anchor point.

Then when it collapsed there was a void. A class of people came to power whose ethos was kill or being killed, get rich or die trying. These people had no respect for laws or morals, judges could be bought, policemen bribed and the only thing standing in your way was other groups chasing the same piece of pie you were chasing. Either you killed them or they killed you, or you scared them off or they scared you off or you made an alliance until such time that you had the power to break it. For 20 years it was like 1930s Chicago with the mob in charge, but worse because even the mob kept changing.

Thus what I believe he is trying to say is that values not anchored to something are worthless and impossible to unite society to.

This is the biggest problem with Russian and other ex-Soviet immigrants to Europe. They don't respect our systems of justice and social mores because back in their country those particular systems were corrupt to the core. On the other hand there was no ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ agenda and no obvious media agenda either.

It's interesting to watch Russian children's cartoons made during the times of communism of which we own several hundred at least. Not one has a political agenda and the moral stories in them are very noble. Perhaps surprisingly none are trying to sell children on communism or Father Joe or anything else.

Whereas in Disney and Pixar movies, there is a very noticeable agenda.

So that is one error we certainly invented ourselves.

Thanks for the explanation. It's interesting that he said that communism took values from the Bible and distorted them. The same, I think, has happened in pretty much all of the Protestant heresies, as well as Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, etc. Even the Vatican and Pope do this. So yeah, I think he's right. Do you know if Putin has ever discussed or explained his views on this in a lengthy and specific manner? I would like to know more about his thoughts on communism, and what it did to his county.

Do you think that Putin still has to fight against the corruption in the post-Soviet Russia? Has it gotten better recently?

I only know one Russian immigrant, who is a co-worker. For the first few months that I worked there, she started almost every sentence she spoke with...."Oh my G..d,!" or some other form of blasphemy, which really grated on my nerves. She doesn't do it much anymore, thankfully. She's a little crazy (which she admits to), but she has a good sense of humor.

So your children watch Russian cartoons? It seems rather bizarre that Russian cartoons from the Soviet are moral and noble. In what way are they so?

Thurifer · « **Reply #12 on:** January 23, 2015, 11:08:34 AM »

Quote from: ggreg

It's interesting to watch Russian children's cartoons made during the times of communism of which we own several hundred at least. Not one has a political agenda and the moral stories in them are very noble. Perhaps surprisingly none are trying to sell children on communism or Father Joe or anything else.

Whereas in Disney and Pixar movies, there is a very noticeable agenda.

So that is one error we certainly invented ourselves.

First, do you know if any of these cartoons are available on youtube? Or if not, would you be willing to upload a few, or even your entire collection? That would be a noble act and would provide many people the opportunity to study these. Obviously, since I ask, I would find them fascinating.

Who were these cartoonists? Did their names get attached to their creations? Or were they anonymous in what may be considered a pure form of Communism where authorship is not important?

And finally, what kind of agenda do you see in Disney movies?

BTNYC · « **Reply #13 on:** January 23, 2015, 11:46:55 AM »

Quote from: ggreg

It's interesting to watch Russian children's cartoons made during the times of communism of which we own several hundred at least. Not one has a political agenda and the moral stories in them are very noble. Perhaps surprisingly none are trying to sell children on communism or Father Joe or anything else.

Not to take this too far afield, and freely admitting that I'm no expert on the subject, but I don't think Soviet children's entertainment was entirely free from propaganda. What I'm thinking of specifically are the numerous children's fantasy and fairy tale films made in the 50's-60's, like Ilya Muromets and Jack Frost, which were beautifully made and, as you've said, largely pretty decent morality fables.

But I think the lack of overt shilling for Communism is due more to that sort of ham-fisted approach having been rendered moot by ubiquity of Soviet propaganda in pretty much every other aspect of life. The propaganda in these children's films tended to be much subtler fare like the recurring trope of the wicked old hag, the Baba Yaga witch in the babooshka who mutters magic spells and eats children. This, I think, was a calculated attack on the piety of Russian grandmothers, the most likely source of Christian traditions and morality that the average mid-20th century Russian child had left to him.

BTNYC · « **Reply #14 on:** January 23, 2015, 11:50:17 AM »

Quote from: Thurifer

And finally, what kind of agenda do you see in Disney movies?

Too numerous to count - feminism, immodesty, effeminacy, disrespect of parental authority, materialism, consumerism... Pretty much every evil agenda at work in the pop culture at large is present and accounted for Disney's output, only toned down and repackaged for consumption by children.