Catholic Info

Traditional Catholic Faith => General Discussion => Topic started by: Thurifer7 on January 22, 2015, 06:38:56 PM

Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Thurifer7 on January 22, 2015, 06:38:56 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIEQ3XEhdB4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIEQ3XEhdB4)
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: ggreg on January 23, 2015, 02:31:27 AM
This is the same Father Gruner who told Chris Ferrara than he had two letters from Cardinal Bergoglio thanking him for his materials on Fatima and acknowledging that the Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary still needed to be done?

He suggested in that faked "interview" that Francis's election was a positive development on this basis, a few days after the election.

I'd suggest confirmation bias.  That Father Gruner has a tendency to see what he wants to see in order to support his own agenda.

Why on earth would Vladimir Putin man who left his own loyal wife of many years and the mother of his children to take up with an Olympic gymnast, 30 years younger than him, put any stock in a bizarre story from 1917 by Portuguese children?

And how on Earth would Father Gruner know this from half a world away?

Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Croixalist on January 23, 2015, 03:18:11 AM
I'll say the same thing about Gruner that I did for Kramer, I like him. He's done a lot for traditionalist Catholics out there. Occasionally I've seen him get spread a little thin on things I can't go along with, Garabandal comes to mind, but his intentions are good.

I have to admit being amazed at how effective Russian propaganda has been at luring in the conservative crowd. We need to remind ourselves on a daily basis that Russia has zero interest in preserving Catholic culture. Even before the revolution, the "Orthodox" purged what they could of the Church from their communities.

All of a sudden, they say "no homo" and get crowned as the bastion of Christianity? Now they can say "Fatima" all they want, but as long as they remain unconsecrated, everything is wasted breath. Anyone can see Francis isn't going to follow through on a single thing from the seers. The only reason I see Putin ever tossing such a softball pitch to Bergog Magog is to make a show of the swing and a miss.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: ggreg on January 23, 2015, 04:33:14 AM
It's not quite as simple as "no homo".

Russia are very different from the west and in my experience of travelling the world as meeting very different people you can always learn something.

So, for example, the pagan Japanese are very different and there are all sorts of things you could detest about their culture but there are some things you can admire, (their clean streets and lack of petty theft and person code of honour, for example).

Russians are not Europeans and they don't have a European mindset.  They experienced 70 years of communism and when that broke they almost broke down as a society because they were searching for a value system, which nobody alive in Russia had ever experienced on a societal level.  I lived there and saw it first hand.

Putin is a nationalist and a patriot who cares about his people and his country and does not want to see them corrupted and weak and exploited.  He does not want global corporations taking over, paying no taxes and bribing Russian politicians to maintain the status quo, which Russia would be very prone to because so few Russians have the mentality to protest or demand change.  They are stubborn and extremely fatalistic and resigned to accept their lot in life.

They are also very VERY unconcerned about the common good.  As long as their nest is, feathered, they lose no sleep about the strangers next door going without.

He knows that and he can see western values will destroy his country as they would be even more slavishly attached to them than we are.  Look at Pussy Riot and just how degenerate Russian women are when they degenerate.  Russians don't do moderate.  They don't do lukewarm.  If they have 50,000 dollars they don't buy a 10,000 car and put 40,000 away for a rainy day, they buy a 40,000 dollar car and a 10,000 dollar foreign luxury holiday and are broke until the next big payday.

I don't think Putin has a secret Agenda.  I think he is an honest actor who knows he has to replace Russia's moral spine with some Philosophy that can make the nation function.  Russian Orthodoxy is the best choice.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KndjFXRLmJk
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Croixalist on January 23, 2015, 06:06:18 AM
If it isn't more complicated than that, no one here has shown otherwise. He says "God" and you believe him, he says "anti-gay" and he's practically been sainted already.

Of course they don't have our mindset, we have theirs. It only took us a few more generations to get there but now that we've reached our own godless summit of existence, we realize how much we traded off to be part of their empire. And it is their empire. They hit us hard with the greatest weapons they had * the sexual revolution being the final headshot * and from that point on you could say it was all just a foregone conclusion. Impurity doesn't need a great deal of effort to promote, but the tried and true soviet formula of setting up self-declared proletariats in every single dark corner of American life has resulted in massive self-hatred, confusion and delusion.

Yes we've become a monster, but one that cannot fight back against our communist progenitors. They made sure we received the mind of a stunted child and limbs stretched out so thin that we can't walk on our own.

Now I can't speak on the nuances of Russian cultural life, but statistically I can tell what they aren't. All I see here is people bending over backwards to justify, make excuses for, or blatantly promote (without hard data) the propaganda coming out of Russia. As for Putin, whether you think that plastic, botox-injected face has any vestige of integrity is up to you. He certainly is a nationalist, and when was the last time that nation stood for Catholicism? A nation that has the world record for forced starvations, political assassinations and abortions? Yes, I judge him based on his pseudo-Orthodox commitment to a pseudo-Christian nation and his non-commitment to the true Catholic faith.

"Oh but at least he's not a GLBT promoter!" Well I ask you: what has this man ever done for the Church that has aided the .1% of Catholics in his country or beyond? Let me remind you that there are more Jews than Catholics in Russia and that Israelis don't need visas if their stay is under 90 days... Just in case you feel like telling me Putin has taken care of the "Jew" problem.

Why waste another paragraph praising this guy in a Catholic forum?

This phenomenon continues to amaze me among trads!
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: ggreg on January 23, 2015, 07:19:06 AM
We certainly don't have their mindset.

Nobody who has any experience of Russians would think that Western Europeans have much similarity to Russians mindset wise.

That is a ridiculous statement.

Icelanders and Italians, Mexicans and Germans are far closer in their mindset than Russians and Western Europeans.

This is why a majority of Russians support Putin.  They don't trust the EU or the USA.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Croixalist on January 23, 2015, 08:05:27 AM
Quote from: ggreg
We certainly don't have their mindset.

Nobody who has any experience of Russians would think that Western Europeans have much similarity to Russians mindset wise.

That is a ridiculous statement.

Icelanders and Italians, Mexicans and Germans are far closer in their mindset than Russians and Western Europeans.

This is why a majority of Russians support Putin.  They don't trust the EU or the USA.


You're missing the forest for the trees on this one. All those nations are godless. Russia has been doing it for much longer though and as the author of nearly all of it abroad, there isn't much to stop them if they want to make a real power play.  

We don't have to be the same in all our peculiarities.

I realize that I'm speaking to someone with strong ties to Russia, fierce sympathies toward Putin and who was just quoted as saying "Russian Orthodoxy is the best choice." So be it! What I am proposing is not practical. VII Catholicism will never evolve back into true Catholicism and neither will Russian Orthodoxy. We do need a miracle, but by the grace of God we know what it will be and where it will come from. It will be the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart and it will come from a true Pope and true Bishops of our true Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Then we'll talk about Putin... a Catholic Putin!  :dwarf:
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: ggreg on January 23, 2015, 09:34:38 AM
Until you have evidence to the contrary why not take Putin at his word?  He has consistently said that Russia needs a moral backbone and a shared common culture.

I don't distrust Pope Francis purely because he is an Argentinian Novus Ordo Priest and Bishop.  I distrusted him from the day he was elected because he had already done things that were completely inconsistent with Catholic orthodoxy such as presiding at irreligious puppet masses for children, being prayed over by Protestants and praying with Jews.  Those things are strong evidence that he is a modernist.

Francis has been a consistent modernist since.

Putin has done absolutely nothing since his election to convince me that he wants to return Russia to the days of Soviet Communism.  Sure, he has mentioned that that system, as bad as it was, did have certain advantages.  But he has not waxed lyrical or praised Stalin or Lenin.

Had Hitler sued for peace in 1943/44, I am absolutely sure that there would be a certain amount of nostaligia about Nazi Germany now.  Had Stalin's purges continued until the 1980s I am sure that waving the hammer and sickle around today would be far more unwelcome.

What has Putin actually done that you consider to be particularly evil?

I will accept he probably ordered the state sanctioned killing of Alexander Litvinenko.  Given the use of Polonium and his seniority in the FSB historically I think the balance of probability is that he knew about this and possibly even gave the orders.

What of it?  Are you so naive as to think Britain and America, France or Germany would allow a top intelligence officer in their secret services to betray them?

The rules of the secret services are clear and betraying your country is, and has long been, a potentially capital crime.  You think the CIA wasn't bumping off traitors in the McCarthy era?

Do you accuse Henry V of England as a murderer because he has the traitors excuted who have tried to betray him to France?  Clearly states have the power of life and death over their citizens under certain circumstances. The rules are clear.  You don't enter into the secret services and then use what you know to betray your country.  That seems fair enough.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Meg on January 23, 2015, 10:06:35 AM
Quote from: ggreg


I don't think Putin has a secret Agenda.  I think he is an honest actor who knows he has to replace Russia's moral spine with some Philosophy that can make the nation function.  Russian Orthodoxy is the best choice.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KndjFXRLmJk


In the video, the translator said something about the ideology (of communism?) making distortions, but I don't really understand what was said, as it didn't make clear sense. Could you explain what was said?

 
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: ggreg on January 23, 2015, 10:43:08 AM
He said that communism took some of the values of the Bible and distorted them.  The word he uses is more like de-anchors or detaches.  Removes from their anchor point.

Then when it collapsed there was a void.  A class of people came to power whose ethos was kill or being killed, get rich or die trying.  These people had no respect for laws or morals, judges could be bought, policemen bribed and the only thing standing in your way was other groups chasing the same piece of pie you were chasing.  Either you killed them or they killed you, or you scared them off or they scared you off or you made an alliance until such time that you had the power to break it.  For 20 years it was like 1930s Chicago with the mob in charge, but worse because even the mob kept changing.

Thus what I believe he is trying to say is that values not anchored to something are worthless and impossible to unite society to.

This is the biggest problem with Russian and other ex-Soviet immigrants to Europe.  They don't respect our systems of justice and social mores because back in their country those particular systems were corrupt to the core.  On the other hand there was no homosexual agenda and no obvious media agenda either.

It's interesting to watch Russian children's cartoons made during the times of communism of which we own several hundred at least.  Not one has a political agenda and the moral stories in them are very noble.  Perhaps surprisingly none are trying to sell children on communism or Father Joe or anything else.

Whereas in Disney and Pixar movies, there is a very noticeable agenda.

So that is one error we certainly invented ourselves.

Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Magna opera Domini on January 23, 2015, 10:56:15 AM
Would someone please report whether Fr. Gruner said "yes" or "no" to the question?  

It doesn't take 12 minutes to answer such a simple question, and based on the comments below the video, it sounds like he never said a clear yes or no.  
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Meg on January 23, 2015, 11:04:21 AM
Quote from: ggreg
He said that communism took some of the values of the Bible and distorted them.  The word he uses is more like de-anchors or detaches.  Removes from their anchor point.

Then when it collapsed there was a void.  A class of people came to power whose ethos was kill or being killed, get rich or die trying.  These people had no respect for laws or morals, judges could be bought, policemen bribed and the only thing standing in your way was other groups chasing the same piece of pie you were chasing.  Either you killed them or they killed you, or you scared them off or they scared you off or you made an alliance until such time that you had the power to break it.  For 20 years it was like 1930s Chicago with the mob in charge, but worse because even the mob kept changing.

Thus what I believe he is trying to say is that values not anchored to something are worthless and impossible to unite society to.

This is the biggest problem with Russian and other ex-Soviet immigrants to Europe.  They don't respect our systems of justice and social mores because back in their country those particular systems were corrupt to the core.  On the other hand there was no homosexual agenda and no obvious media agenda either.

It's interesting to watch Russian children's cartoons made during the times of communism of which we own several hundred at least.  Not one has a political agenda and the moral stories in them are very noble.  Perhaps surprisingly none are trying to sell children on communism or Father Joe or anything else.

Whereas in Disney and Pixar movies, there is a very noticeable agenda.

So that is one error we certainly invented ourselves.



Thanks for the explanation. It's interesting that he said that communism took values from the Bible and distorted them. The same, I think, has happened in pretty much all of the Protestant heresies, as well as freemasonry, etc. Even the Vatican and Pope do this. So yeah, I think he's right. Do you know if Putin has ever discussed or explained his views on this in a lengthy and specific manner? I would like to know more about his thoughts on communism, and what it did to his county.

Do you think that Putin still has to fight against the corruption in the post-Soviet Russia? Has it gotten better recently?

I only know one Russian immigrant, who is a co-worker. For the first few months that I worked there, she started almost every sentence she spoke with...."Oh my G..d,!" or some other form of blasphemy, which really grated on my nerves. She doesn't do it much anymore, thankfully. She's a little crazy (which she admits to), but she has a good sense of humor.

So your children watch Russian cartoons? It seems rather bizarre that Russian cartoons from the Soviet are moral and noble. In what way are they so?
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Thurifer on January 23, 2015, 11:08:34 AM
Quote from: ggreg
It's interesting to watch Russian children's cartoons made during the times of communism of which we own several hundred at least.  Not one has a political agenda and the moral stories in them are very noble.  Perhaps surprisingly none are trying to sell children on communism or Father Joe or anything else.

Whereas in Disney and Pixar movies, there is a very noticeable agenda.

So that is one error we certainly invented ourselves.



First, do you know if any of these cartoons are available on youtube? Or if not, would you be willing to upload a few, or even your entire collection? That would be a noble act and would provide many people the opportunity to study these. Obviously, since I ask, I would find them fascinating.

Who were these cartoonists? Did their names get attached to their creations? Or were they anonymous in what may be considered a pure form of Communism where authorship is not important?

And finally, what kind of agenda do you see in Disney movies?
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: BTNYC on January 23, 2015, 11:46:55 AM
Quote from: ggreg

It's interesting to watch Russian children's cartoons made during the times of communism of which we own several hundred at least.  Not one has a political agenda and the moral stories in them are very noble.  Perhaps surprisingly none are trying to sell children on communism or Father Joe or anything else.




Not to take this too far afield, and freely admitting that I'm no expert on the subject, but I don't think Soviet children's entertainment was entirely free from propaganda. What I'm thinking of specifically are the numerous children's fantasy and fairy tale films made in the 50's-60's, like Ilya Muromets and Jack Frost, which were beautifully made and, as you've said, largely pretty decent morality fables.

But I think the lack of overt shilling for Communism is due more to that sort of ham-fisted approach having been rendered moot by ubiquity of Soviet propaganda in pretty much every other aspect of life. The propaganda in these children's films tended to be much subtler fare like the recurring trope of the wicked old hag, the Baba Yaga witch in the babooshka who mutters magic spells and eats children. This, I think, was a calculated attack on the piety of Russian grandmothers, the most likely source of Christian traditions and morality that the average mid-20th century Russian child had left to him.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: BTNYC on January 23, 2015, 11:50:17 AM
Quote from: Thurifer

And finally, what kind of agenda do you see in Disney movies?


Too numerous to count - feminism, immodesty, effeminacy, disrespect of parental authority, materialism, consumerism... Pretty much every evil agenda at work in the pop culture at large is present and accounted for Disney's output, only toned down and repackaged for consumption by children.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: ggreg on January 23, 2015, 12:00:34 PM
Quote from: BTNYC
Quote from: ggreg

It's interesting to watch Russian children's cartoons made during the times of communism of which we own several hundred at least.  Not one has a political agenda and the moral stories in them are very noble.  Perhaps surprisingly none are trying to sell children on communism or Father Joe or anything else.




Not to take this too far afield, and freely admitting that I'm no expert on the subject, but I don't think Soviet children's entertainment was entirely free from propaganda. What I'm thinking of specifically are the numerous children's fantasy and fairy tale films made in the 50's-60's, like Ilya Muromets and Jack Frost, which were beautifully made and, as you've said, largely pretty decent morality fables.

But I think the lack of overt shilling for Communism is due more to that sort of ham-fisted approach having been rendered moot by ubiquity of Soviet propaganda in pretty much every other aspect of life. The propaganda in these children's films tended to be much subtler fare like the recurring trope of the wicked old hag, the Baba Yaga witch in the babooshka who mutters magic spells and eats children. This, I think, was a calculated attack on the piety of Russian grandmothers, the most likely source of Christian traditions and morality that the average mid-20th century Russian child had left to him.


Baba Yaga has been documented in Slavic folklore since the mid 1700s and probably pre-dates that by several hundred years.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: ggreg on January 23, 2015, 12:04:11 PM
Quote from: BTNYC
Quote from: Thurifer

And finally, what kind of agenda do you see in Disney movies?


Too numerous to count - feminism, immodesty, effeminacy, disrespect of parental authority, materialism, consumerism... Pretty much every evil agenda at work in the pop culture at large is present and accounted for Disney's output, only toned down and repackaged for consumption by children.


It's Friday evening and I am busy Thurifer.  If you cannot see an agenda in Disney movies then you are blinder than Stevie Wonder and deafer than Beethoven.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: ggreg on January 23, 2015, 12:18:34 PM
Lots on Youtube

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZWffqNHnOms


http://youtube.com/watch?v=Huu4c6DoZ_4
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: MaterDominici on January 23, 2015, 12:40:09 PM
Quote from: Magna opera Domini
Would someone please report whether Fr. Gruner said "yes" or "no" to the question?  

It doesn't take 12 minutes to answer such a simple question, and based on the comments below the video, it sounds like he never said a clear yes or no.  


He said he does not know if Putin asked for a consecration, only that the topic of Fatima was brought up.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: BTNYC on January 23, 2015, 12:51:28 PM
Quote from: ggreg
Quote from: BTNYC
Quote from: ggreg

It's interesting to watch Russian children's cartoons made during the times of communism of which we own several hundred at least.  Not one has a political agenda and the moral stories in them are very noble.  Perhaps surprisingly none are trying to sell children on communism or Father Joe or anything else.




Not to take this too far afield, and freely admitting that I'm no expert on the subject, but I don't think Soviet children's entertainment was entirely free from propaganda. What I'm thinking of specifically are the numerous children's fantasy and fairy tale films made in the 50's-60's, like Ilya Muromets and Jack Frost, which were beautifully made and, as you've said, largely pretty decent morality fables.

But I think the lack of overt shilling for Communism is due more to that sort of ham-fisted approach having been rendered moot by ubiquity of Soviet propaganda in pretty much every other aspect of life. The propaganda in these children's films tended to be much subtler fare like the recurring trope of the wicked old hag, the Baba Yaga witch in the babooshka who mutters magic spells and eats children. This, I think, was a calculated attack on the piety of Russian grandmothers, the most likely source of Christian traditions and morality that the average mid-20th century Russian child had left to him.


Baba Yaga has been documented in Slavic folklore since the mid 1700s and probably pre-dates that by several hundred years.


Yes, I'm not unaware of that fact. What I was referring to was the preponderance of depictions of this stock character in the children's films of the period.
 
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Thurifer on January 23, 2015, 12:52:02 PM
Quote from: ggreg
Quote from: BTNYC
Quote from: Thurifer

And finally, what kind of agenda do you see in Disney movies?


Too numerous to count - feminism, immodesty, effeminacy, disrespect of parental authority, materialism, consumerism... Pretty much every evil agenda at work in the pop culture at large is present and accounted for Disney's output, only toned down and repackaged for consumption by children.


It's Friday evening and I am busy Thurifer.  If you cannot see an agenda in Disney movies then you are blinder than Stevie Wonder and deafer than Beethoven.


Sorry Greg. I did not mean to burden you with my silly questions. I read your post with interest and was simply trying to learn more by contrast. How can I appreciate what YOU are saying about Russian cartoons I have not seen without understanding what YOU see as an agenda in Disney movies? Just looking to bring your original point into focus if it might be possible by way of extension from recognizing the agenda present in Disney films.

Thanks to BTNYC for providing some great conceptual archetypes from which I can begin my task. I could never encapsulate those as easy as you have done, BTNYC, not that I don't see them at work when watching.

Maybe I am deaf and blind, Greg. But truth be told, I don't even see those things as an agenda anymore but more of a reflection of a reality that already exists. And yes, I understand the value of confirmation of existing mores.

Either way, it looks like you provided links for some of the Russian Toons. Thanks for that.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: BTNYC on January 23, 2015, 12:55:08 PM
Quote from: ggreg
Lots on Youtube

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZWffqNHnOms


http://youtube.com/watch?v=Huu4c6DoZ_4


Thanks for the links. Having only been exposed to the live-action stuff of the period, I'm curious to have a look at these. They look similarly beautifully made.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Meg on January 23, 2015, 01:08:20 PM
I watched the link for the first cartoon, called "Bag full of apples." It's very nice, and it does have a good moral to it, as well as being very family-oriented. Much better than most of the American cartoons I was raised with. I'm pleasantly surprised by the Russian cartoon.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: MaterDominici on January 23, 2015, 01:12:00 PM
Quote from: ggreg
Lots on Youtube

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZWffqNHnOms


http://youtube.com/watch?v=Huu4c6DoZ_4


My kids give this post five thumbs up.

The even like the one without subtitles.  :smirk:
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: ggreg on January 23, 2015, 03:45:23 PM
Quote from: Meg
I watched the link for the first cartoon, called "Bag full of apples." It's very nice, and it does have a good moral to it, as well as being very family-oriented. Much better than most of the American cartoons I was raised with. I'm pleasantly surprised by the Russian cartoon.


Notice the Rabbit has five children.

The pope would consider him irresponsible.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: 2Vermont on January 23, 2015, 03:50:12 PM
Quote from: ggreg
Quote from: Meg
I watched the link for the first cartoon, called "Bag full of apples." It's very nice, and it does have a good moral to it, as well as being very family-oriented. Much better than most of the American cartoons I was raised with. I'm pleasantly surprised by the Russian cartoon.


Notice the Rabbit has five children.

The pope would consider him irresponsible.


 :roll-laugh2:
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Croixalist on January 23, 2015, 06:05:17 PM
Quote from: ggreg
Until you have evidence to the contrary why not take Putin at his word?  He has consistently said that Russia needs a moral backbone and a shared common culture.


He's former KGB/FSB and a politician. Why would anyone take him at his word? I put him up there with all the other false conservatives out there. Every time they chase out Catholicism, the Russians commit treason. You've been sold a bill of goods.


Quote
I will accept he probably ordered the state sanctioned killing of Alexander Litvinenko.


If you're a journalist and critical of Putin like Anna Stepanovna Politkovskaya, you instantly become more likely to die a violent death.

Quote
Putin has done absolutely nothing since his election to convince me that he wants to return Russia to the days of Soviet Communism. Sure, he has mentioned that that system, as bad as it was, did have certain advantages. But he has not waxed lyrical or praised Stalin or Lenin.


He technically doesn't need to. The rest of Russian society does that for him. This brand of nationalism perfectly does away with any Catholic impulse. The Unorthodox Church serves as support of the State and the State only cares about the State and the elites who run it. The people were starved out and oppressed, their resistance was purged. It's a familiar story by now, no matter where you come from.

I guess I missed the part where he dismantled the Russian Mafia. I missed the part where he disbanded the Communist Party. I missed the part where he took down all the communist symbols, especially the hammer and sickle, from places like say... Red Square? If they don't actively venerate Lenin, why do they still have his body on display at the Mausoleum? There was never a rejection of communist ideals, only a mild transference.

I did however, catch the part where he routinely gobbled up the assets of multiple oligarchs and sent them off to prison without trial. I remember Yushchenko's face. I remember those golden words falling out of Putin's mouth "Above all, we should acknowledge that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a major geopolitical disaster of the century". Now I'll remember all those who are falling out of their chairs to agree with this man, glossing over not only the supreme material evils of the regime, but also the spiritual. Meanwhile the Mass of all time goes unmentioned amidst all this nationalism and nostalgia.

I can't even tell Russia to go to Hell, they're already in it!

Just because a starving man thinks that gnawing on a leather shoe is a full course meal, it does not mean we must adopt his point of view as healthy individuals. The old shoe of Russia nationalism will not suffice. The old shoe of the servile schismatic Russian Orthodox Church will not suffice. I'm not arguing that the USA has the right answer either, I'm simply reminding you guys that the Fatima message still stands. If Russia can convince you that they're really a Christian nation (which they are not), then what use will you have of Fatima? The answer is why Fatima is being put on the shelf by conservatives this time and not just the liberals.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: hollingsworth on January 23, 2015, 08:38:28 PM
ggreg:
Quote
What has Putin actually done that you consider to be particularly evil?


I guess that is what I would ask myself and others too.  If Putin is as evil and phony as Croix paints him,  then I for one have run out of major world leaders in whom I can place even a modicum of trust.  I call Putin a Christian, a name which one can hardly apply to irreligious empty suits like Hollande, Merkel, Cameron, Biden and Obama.  I think ggreg makes some sense.  From now on, at least on this site, I think all be listening more closely to ggreg when it comes to issues touching modern Russia and Putin.  He seems to know what he's talking about.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Croixalist on January 23, 2015, 09:09:44 PM
The problem here is that everyone feels they must compare him to western politicians. This is a false dilemma, none of them are Catholic! Do not support Putin or Russia until a conversion to Catholicism takes place. It's like a comparative pragmatism has taken root over what was handed down by Our Lady.

I don't care if ggreg comes from Moscow, it changes nothing.
 
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Cantarella on January 24, 2015, 12:41:36 AM
Quote from: ggreg
Lots on Youtube

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZWffqNHnOms


http://youtube.com/watch?v=Huu4c6DoZ_4


Awwww!

Adorable cartoons. I had not seen those. Thanks for sharing, Mr. Ggreg.  
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: ggreg on January 24, 2015, 12:43:47 AM
Quote from: Croixalist


I guess I missed the part where he dismantled the Russian Mafia. I missed the part where he disbanded the Communist Party. I missed the part where he took down all the communist symbols, especially the hammer and sickle, from places like say... Red Square? If they don't actively venerate Lenin, why do they still have his body on display.




Why do they still have high altars in St Peters Basilica?  They never use them.  Why do they have altar rails in many Cathedrals? They never use them.

I don't know anyone, other than tourists, who have gone to see Lenin's body.  I know 100s of  Muscovites and none of them have ever been there.  Neither have I.  I got married in Red Square.  Well technically in a Church nearby but afterwards we all went to Red Square to celebrate.

I think the Russians probably keep it as a reminder of their past. Much like the Vatican keep those high altars and other architectural features, they no longer need.

Very many of the hammers and sickles and other communist symbols have been taken down.  In fact they were taken down in the early to mid 1990s.  There are no prominent ones on display any longer, but where they are on a granite panel etc then they have not been chiselled off as the feeling is that architecture and history are important and a symbol does not contain some sort of magical power or evil.

Why not? Because Russians have a different attitude to suffering than westerners.  Often rather than looking for someone to blame they blame themselves. And while all acknowledge that the 20th Century was very nasty, they don't pretend that the 19th century was all roses either.  Yes communism killed lots of people but it also educated them, entertained them and in a certain sense civilised them.  They view it like a drunk parent with a foul temper who beat them but also made them stand on their own two feet and learn to work.  Whereas the Tsar was a sober parent who did nothing for them and just let them live in Mom's basement wasting away, unmarried, unprepared to deal with the world, unable to earn a living and scared to try.

Quote
I remember those golden words falling out of Putin's mouth "Above all, we should acknowledge that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a major geopolitical disaster of the century".


It was.  Had they had a smooth transition to a market economy and privatised fairly and justly and not had lots of greedy ruthless types stealing assets at the point is a gun it would have been much better.  The collapse was a disaster and they are still picking up the pieces now.

They could have built a middle classes and carefully managed the transition.  Encouraged people to pay taxes.  Paid police, nurses, doctors fairly and not allowed Oligarchs to steal and bribe.

Likewise, in America, the time of the robber barons was a geopolitical disaster because it created an all powerful political class and a ruthless crony capitalism.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Croixalist on January 24, 2015, 02:01:21 AM
Quote from: ggreg
Why do they still have high altars in St Peters Basilica?  They never use them.  Why do they have altar rails in many Cathedrals? They never use them.


Communists still have a party over there and thus, get far more use out of communist founders and symbolism than VII Catholics get from altar rails. The rails do have an aesthetic quality beside their functionality, which is more than I can say for the hideous mugs of Marx, Lenin, Stalin or the various symbols left over from the Soviet regime.

Quote
I don't know anyone, other than tourists, who have gone to see Lenin's body.  I know 100s of  Muscovites and none of them have ever been there.  Neither have I.
 

Doesn't matter how many visitors he gets, Lenin is one of the strongest communist symbols in history. Why even leave it up to interpretation and kick his carcass over the Caucasus? It certainly looks like tacit approval, if not outright veneration.
 
Quote
I got married in Red Square.  Well technically in a Church nearby but afterwards we all went to Red Square to celebrate.


Are you a convert to Catholicism then?

Quote
I think the Russians probably keep it as a reminder of their past. Much like the Vatican keep those high altars and other architectural features, they no longer need.

Very many of the hammers and sickles and other communist symbols have been taken down.  In fact they were taken down in the early to mid 1990s.  There are no prominent ones on display any longer, but where they are on a granite panel etc then they have not been chiselled off as the feeling is that architecture and history are important and a symbol does not contain some sort of magical power or evil.


But not all of them and as we know, all those symbols come back in force once May 9th comes around...

I don't care how beautiful a building is, if I see a swastika, it's got to go. Even more so with the Hammer and Sickle. Now we don't all have control over everything that is promoted or permitted by our respective states, but let's not make excuses for them. A symbol isn't magic but it does occasionally have the potential of carrying an indelible mark. You mean to tell me that the Hammer and Sickle represent Russia more than it does Soviet Communism? If the swastika can't be rehabilitated, the h&s doesn't have a chance!
 
Quote
Why not? Because Russians have a different attitude to suffering than westerners.  Often rather than looking for someone to blame they blame themselves. And while all acknowledge that the 20th Century was very nasty, they don't pretend that the 19th century was all roses either.  Yes communism killed lots of people but it also educated them, entertained them and in a certain sense civilised them.  They view it like a drunk parent with a foul temper who beat them but also made them stand on their own two feet and learn to work.  Whereas the Tsar was a sober parent who did nothing for them and just let them live in Mom's basement wasting away, unmarried, unprepared to deal with the world, unable to earn a living and scared to try.


Pride and Stockholm syndrome aside, none of it is Catholic. History might have been alot different had the Tsars converted! You might be able to shed some light on why Catholicism or even Catholic-aligned Eastern Rite is so unpopular for Russians.

Quote
It was. Had they had a smooth transition to a market economy and privatised fairly and justly and not had lots of greedy ruthless types stealing assets at the point is a gun it would have been much better.  The collapse was a disaster and they are still picking up the pieces now.

They could have built a middle classes and carefully managed the transition.  Encouraged people to pay taxes.  Paid police, nurses, doctors fairly and not allowed Oligarchs to steal and bribe.


This comes off sounding very practical at the expense of true conversion. Food and drink are secondary to the needs of the spirit. Thugs on every political spectrum will come and go. If there is no one to say the Mass, that's when you start to worry! Russia might be eating better now, but they are as much of a desert as the next country without the true faith. The disaster of the "fall" of communism was nothing compared to it's establishment. Not just for Russia, but for the entire world. If it was a greater disaster, it's only because the Catholic population declined and never recovered.

Quote
Likewise, in America, the time of the robber barons was a geopolitical disaster because it created an all powerful political class and a ruthless crony capitalism.


I'm speaking as a Catholic, one who values that affiliation above everything else. Though I admit to being biased for my home country, I also recognize that the US won't be able to effect any lasting positive change until it becomes a Catholic nation as well. Of course the old gilded age was garbage, but now our new gilded age has piled up all the combined errors of modern man which no country is exempt from. It's our very own New World Disorder.

Cultural differences aside, all I care about is the plight of the true Church. The only reason I'm making an exception for Russia is that Our Lady made it known to the world first. I believe Russia will do incredible things and possibly be one of the greatest Catholic nations the Church has ever known, but only after its consecration.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: 2Vermont on January 24, 2015, 07:39:17 AM
Quote from: Croixalist
Quote from: ggreg
Why do they still have high altars in St Peters Basilica?  They never use them.  Why do they have altar rails in many Cathedrals? They never use them.


Communists still have a party over there and thus, get far more use out of communist founders and symbolism than VII Catholics get from altar rails. The rails do have an aesthetic quality beside their functionality, which is more than I can say for the hideous mugs of Marx, Lenin, Stalin or the various symbols left over from the Soviet regime.



As a Catholic, I am a bit disturbed by the analogy made here.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Thurifer on January 24, 2015, 10:36:14 AM
Why does a building with a swastika have to go? I say leave them up and let those who are guilty explain them. Same goes for Lenin's Tomb. To destroy them all leads to a kind of whitewashing. I believe most Russians look at these monuments, buildings, and other markers as a kind of a joke and a reminder. This seems to be a complete nonstarter as an argument. The whitewashing as advocated by Croixalist, would tend to sweep things under the rug, now wouldn't they?

Having said that, I don't like the analogy between Altar Rails or High Altars either. They could be used agains tomorrow. Literally. That comment being made could well indicate a loss of faith by he who utters it.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Meg on January 24, 2015, 12:03:31 PM
Quote from: ggreg


I don't know anyone, other than tourists, who have gone to see Lenin's body.  I know 100s of  Muscovites and none of them have ever been there.  Neither have I.  I got married in Red Square.  Well technically in a Church nearby but afterwards we all went to Red Square to celebrate.


Maybe you've explained this before, but what is your background, exactly? I don't want to get too personal, but an explanation might help to put your posts into context. I always thought that you're British. But maybe you're not. If you got married near Red Square, then you may have some sort of connection to Russia, and Orthodoxy. Perhaps you'd be willing to explain the connection.

The one good thing, IMO, about the Orthodox is that at least they aren't Protestant. But...the Orthodox (or many of them) that I've debated with on the CAF forums have been quite anti-Rome, and difficult to reason with. Not all, but many.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Croixalist on January 24, 2015, 04:51:35 PM
Quote from: Thurifer
Why does a building with a swastika have to go? I say leave them up and let those who are guilty explain them. Same goes for Lenin's Tomb. To destroy them all leads to a kind of whitewashing. I believe most Russians look at these monuments, buildings, and other markers as a kind of a joke and a reminder. This seems to be a complete nonstarter as an argument. The whitewashing as advocated by Croixalist, would tend to sweep things under the rug, now wouldn't they?

Having said that, I don't like the analogy between Altar Rails or High Altars either. They could be used agains tomorrow. Literally. That comment being made could well indicate a loss of faith by he who utters it.


There is no excuse to have anti-Catholic, antichrist symbolism in or on any building. Tear it down if you need to, this is the opposite of whitewashing. What you need to start doing is to resist the brainwashing. That body of Lenin ought to be burned and the ashes thrown in acid. Shame on Russia for allowing that infernal display!
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: ggreg on January 25, 2015, 05:22:00 AM
Quote from: Thurifer
Why does a building with a swastika have to go? I say leave them up and let those who are guilty explain them. Same goes for Lenin's Tomb. To destroy them all leads to a kind of whitewashing. I believe most Russians look at these monuments, buildings, and other markers as a kind of a joke and a reminder. This seems to be a complete nonstarter as an argument. The whitewashing as advocated by Croixalist, would tend to sweep things under the rug, now wouldn't they?

Having said that, I don't like the analogy between Altar Rails or High Altars either. They could be used agains tomorrow. Literally. That comment being made could well indicate a loss of faith by he who utters it.


It's tomorrow, and they are not being used.  So you're wrong.  Literally.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: ggreg on January 25, 2015, 05:24:03 AM
Quote from: Croixalist
Quote from: Thurifer
Why does a building with a swastika have to go? I say leave them up and let those who are guilty explain them. Same goes for Lenin's Tomb. To destroy them all leads to a kind of whitewashing. I believe most Russians look at these monuments, buildings, and other markers as a kind of a joke and a reminder. This seems to be a complete nonstarter as an argument. The whitewashing as advocated by Croixalist, would tend to sweep things under the rug, now wouldn't they?

Having said that, I don't like the analogy between Altar Rails or High Altars either. They could be used agains tomorrow. Literally. That comment being made could well indicate a loss of faith by he who utters it.


There is no excuse to have anti-Catholic, antichrist symbolism in or on any building. Tear it down if you need to, this is the opposite of whitewashing. What you need to start doing is to resist the brainwashing. That body of Lenin ought to be burned and the ashes thrown in acid. Shame on Russia for allowing that infernal display!


You'd better tear down Wall Street then and a bunch of Central Washington DC because they have freemasonic symbols in the architecture on those buildings.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: ggreg on January 25, 2015, 05:27:44 AM
Quote from: Meg
Quote from: ggreg


I don't know anyone, other than tourists, who have gone to see Lenin's body.  I know 100s of  Muscovites and none of them have ever been there.  Neither have I.  I got married in Red Square.  Well technically in a Church nearby but afterwards we all went to Red Square to celebrate.


Maybe you've explained this before, but what is your background, exactly? I don't want to get too personal, but an explanation might help to put your posts into context. I always thought that you're British. But maybe you're not. If you got married near Red Square, then you may have some sort of connection to Russia, and Orthodoxy. Perhaps you'd be willing to explain the connection.

The one good thing, IMO, about the Orthodox is that at least they aren't Protestant. But...the Orthodox (or many of them) that I've debated with on the CAF forums have been quite anti-Rome, and difficult to reason with. Not all, but many.


I'm British.  Married to a Russian Catholic.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Croixalist on January 25, 2015, 08:00:09 AM
Quote from: ggreg
You'd better tear down Wall Street then and a bunch of Central Washington DC because they have freemasonic symbols in the architecture on those buildings.


I have exactly zero qualms tearing down all freemasonic symbolism wherever it is. I make no excuses for it. I'd go even further and redo the entire city layout to get rid of the owl, the compass and pentagram.

BTW, some items "post-soviet" Moscow forgot about...

Outside Luzhniki Stadium:
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/05_04/LeninStatue_650x479.jpg)

Kaluzhskaya Square:
(http://www.comtourist.com/images/large/russia-02/moscow-lenin-statue-01.jpg)

Revolution Square:
(http://www.comtourist.com/images/large/russia-02/moscow-karl-marx-statue-01.jpg)

Novokoeznetskaya Metro Station:
(http://www.comtourist.com/images/large/russia-02/moscow-novokoeznetskaya-metro-station-01.jpg)

Muzeon Park of Arts:
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02219/stalin-sculpture_2219997b.jpg)

Muzeon Park of Arts:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Lenin_statue_in_the_Sculpture_Park,_Moscow.JPG)

Muzeon Park of Arts:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Lenin_Statue_in_the_Sculpture_Parc_or_Park_Iskustv.JPG)

Gorky Park:
(https://cdn.superstock.com/1566/Thumb/1566-374603.jpg)

Stalin's Tomb:
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02500/stalin4_2500023c.jpg)

At once a sign of life and a reminder of the reality of communist attachments:

Quote
Lenin statue blown up in central Russian city

MOSCOW, November 15 (RIA Novosti) – A Lenin statue was blown up in the early hours of Saturday in the central Russian city of Ryazan, a police source has told RIA Novosti.

No one was injured in the blast, which happened at around 3:00 a.m. (midnight GMT). Ryazan is some 200 kms (125 miles) from Moscow.

The police source said that the explosive device used had contained “the equivalent of some 200 grams of TNT.”

“As a result of the blast, the two-meter alabaster monument was completely destroyed. An investigation is being carried out,” said the source.

Ryazan’s best known monument to the father of the Bolshevik Revolution is in the centre of the city. It is not known if police will take any special steps to protect it in the light of Saturday’s events.

In mid-October, Russian police in the Volga city of Nizhny Novgorod detained a man as he tried to destroy another Lenin statue.

“The man, who was slightly drunk, attempted to pull off the head of Lenin’s statue,” a police spokesman said. “He brought a ladder from a nearby construction site and tried to destroy the monument,” he said, adding that the attacker had only managed to tear off Lenin’s right arm.

A large amount of Lenin statues were torn down in Russia following the collapse of the U.S.S.R., but many remain, with each large town or city usually boasting at least one.

The embalmed body of the Russian communist leader has been on public display in a glass case in a mausoleum on Red Square since his death in 1924. His continuing presence in the heart of Moscow has been an ongoing source of controversy since the break up of the Soviet Union in 1991.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Thurifer on January 25, 2015, 10:20:45 AM
Quote from: ggreg
Quote from: Thurifer
Why does a building with a swastika have to go? I say leave them up and let those who are guilty explain them. Same goes for Lenin's Tomb. To destroy them all leads to a kind of whitewashing. I believe most Russians look at these monuments, buildings, and other markers as a kind of a joke and a reminder. This seems to be a complete nonstarter as an argument. The whitewashing as advocated by Croixalist, would tend to sweep things under the rug, now wouldn't they?

Having said that, I don't like the analogy between Altar Rails or High Altars either. They could be used agains tomorrow. Literally. That comment being made could well indicate a loss of faith by he who utters it.


It's tomorrow, and they are not being used.  So you're wrong.  Literally.


Actually, Wiseguy, it's never tomorrow.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: hollingsworth on January 25, 2015, 09:15:49 PM
croix:
Quote
Do not support Putin or Russia until a conversion to Catholicism takes place. It's like a comparative pragmatism has taken root over what was handed down by Our Lady.


I'm not certain you would not have made similar demands upon King David.  Yet he was far from perfect,  and did not always behave in accordance with Mosaic Law under the Old Covenant.  He was, nevertheless, in the line of Jesus Christ, and it in one sense a type of Christ the King.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Croixalist on January 26, 2015, 10:54:07 AM
Quote from: hollingsworth
croix:
Quote
Do not support Putin or Russia until a conversion to Catholicism takes place. It's like a comparative pragmatism has taken root over what was handed down by Our Lady.


I'm not certain you would not have made similar demands upon King David.  Yet he was far from perfect,  and did not always behave in accordance with Mosaic Law under the Old Covenant.  He was, nevertheless, in the line of Jesus Christ, and it in one sense a type of Christ the King.


If after all that I've pointed out about Putin and Russia, you still think he's comparable to King David, then I don't think there's anything I can say to dissuade you. I will say that King David publicly repented of his sins and if Putin can one day manage true conversion and repentance for his monstrous past, I might take it easier on him. Maybe.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: ggreg on January 26, 2015, 01:48:12 PM
How "monsterous" was his past?
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Croixalist on January 26, 2015, 04:40:22 PM
Quote from: ggreg
How "monsterous" was his past?

Just a little assassination here and there (Litvinenko, Politkovskaya, Yushenkov, Shchekochikhin, Starovoitova, Girenko, Klebnikov, Kozlov, Markelov, Estemirova), the Pechatniki apartment bombing, the Moscow theater hostage gassing, the Beslan school hostage slaughter, the poisoning of Yushchenko, his pillaging of the Catholic communities in Crimea, his affair and divorce, and whatever else he happened to be part of during his time in that angelic institution, the KGB/FSB.

But all those deaths were coincidentally convenient, and the ends always justified the means!
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: ggreg on January 26, 2015, 05:38:33 PM
Not sure how all that can be pinned on Putin.

Beslan hostages were Islamic Suicide Terrorists.  That was never going to end well, whomsoever was calling the shots.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: hollingsworth on January 26, 2015, 07:47:35 PM
Croix:
Quote
Just a little assassination here and there (Litvinenko, Politkovskaya, Yushenkov, Shchekochikhin, Starovoitova, Girenko, Klebnikov, Kozlov, Markelov, Estemirova), the Pechatniki apartment bombing, the Moscow theater hostage gassing, the Beslan school hostage slaughter, the poisoning of Yushchenko, his pillaging of the Catholic communities in Crimea, his affair and divorce, and whatever else he happened to be part of during his time in that angelic institution, the KGB/FSB.

But all those deaths were coincidentally convenient, and the ends always justified the means!


Wait a minute!  I've never heard of any of these people, and certainly not in connection with assassinations that might have been carried out against them by Putin.  I'm not aware, either, of all the other horrific  incidents mentioned having been instigated by Putin. The Western media hates Putin.  Wouldn't they be jumping all over the Russian leader for these things on a daily basis?  I mean the press still constantly impugns and vilifies Hitler for crimes real and alleged that this German leader committed 70 years ago.  Gives us an update on just one of these folks you're talking about.  I'll choose one at random for you. How about "Kozlov?"  What did Kozlov do?  And how was Putin involved either directly or indirectly in his "assassination?"  You're throwing out a lot of names.  I just ask for information about this one, for now.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Croixalist on January 27, 2015, 09:47:35 AM
Quote from: hollingsworth
Croix:
Quote
Just a little assassination here and there (Litvinenko, Politkovskaya, Yushenkov, Shchekochikhin, Starovoitova, Girenko, Klebnikov, Kozlov, Markelov, Estemirova), the Pechatniki apartment bombing, the Moscow theater hostage gassing, the Beslan school hostage slaughter, the poisoning of Yushchenko, his pillaging of the Catholic communities in Crimea, his affair and divorce, and whatever else he happened to be part of during his time in that angelic institution, the KGB/FSB.

But all those deaths were coincidentally convenient, and the ends always justified the means!


Wait a minute!  I've never heard of any of these people, and certainly not in connection with assassinations that might have been carried out against them by Putin.  I'm not aware, either, of all the other horrific  incidents mentioned having been instigated by Putin. The Western media hates Putin.  Wouldn't they be jumping all over the Russian leader for these things on a daily basis?  I mean the press still constantly impugns and vilifies Hitler for crimes real and alleged that this German leader committed 70 years ago.  Gives us an update on just one of these folks you're talking about.  I'll choose one at random for you. How about "Kozlov?"  What did Kozlov do?  And how was Putin involved either directly or indirectly in his "assassination?"  You're throwing out a lot of names.  I just ask for information about this one, for now.


In 2006, Andrei Kozlov was the biggest political assassination yet under Putin's regime. He was the Deputy Chairman of Russia's Central Bank (yes they have one and he was number 2 in command) and he had taken on the role of reformer by rooting out money laundering. After his death Putin put in his place a very placid non-reformer Gennady Melikyan and effectively broke up the bank inspection system Kozlov had used to revoke some 50 banking licenses. A lapdog in place of a watchdog.

The overall picture goes like this: since the "fall" of communism, powerful critics or rivals of the regime have a nasty habit of dying prematurely. Just looking at journalists, around 200 have met a violent end since 1992. Now, not all of them need to be victims of the state but a pattern does begin to emerge does it not? In cases like these, you're not going to get anything handed to you that's agreed upon by the majority. If you're a trad you should be used to that by now! Just consider for a moment that any political enemy in Russia that could have done substantial damage to Putin's career is dead, in exile or in prison. You might dismiss one or two or three of these as not being related to Putin, but the numbers start piling up. I stopped believing in coincidences with American politics years ago, so why should I let my guard down for an KGB/FSB thug-turned-kingpin?
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Croixalist on January 27, 2015, 10:01:02 AM
Quote from: ggreg
Not sure how all that can be pinned on Putin.

Beslan hostages were Islamic Suicide Terrorists.  That was never going to end well, whomsoever was calling the shots.


They used tanks on a school building with 777 children hostages.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Thurifer on January 27, 2015, 10:40:23 AM
Quote from: Croixalist
Quote from: hollingsworth
Croix:
Quote
Just a little assassination here and there (Litvinenko, Politkovskaya, Yushenkov, Shchekochikhin, Starovoitova, Girenko, Klebnikov, Kozlov, Markelov, Estemirova), the Pechatniki apartment bombing, the Moscow theater hostage gassing, the Beslan school hostage slaughter, the poisoning of Yushchenko, his pillaging of the Catholic communities in Crimea, his affair and divorce, and whatever else he happened to be part of during his time in that angelic institution, the KGB/FSB.

But all those deaths were coincidentally convenient, and the ends always justified the means!


Wait a minute!  I've never heard of any of these people, and certainly not in connection with assassinations that might have been carried out against them by Putin.  I'm not aware, either, of all the other horrific  incidents mentioned having been instigated by Putin. The Western media hates Putin.  Wouldn't they be jumping all over the Russian leader for these things on a daily basis?  I mean the press still constantly impugns and vilifies Hitler for crimes real and alleged that this German leader committed 70 years ago.  Gives us an update on just one of these folks you're talking about.  I'll choose one at random for you. How about "Kozlov?"  What did Kozlov do?  And how was Putin involved either directly or indirectly in his "assassination?"  You're throwing out a lot of names.  I just ask for information about this one, for now.


In 2006, Andrei Kozlov was the biggest political assassination yet under Putin's regime. He was the Deputy Chairman of Russia's Central Bank (yes they have one and he was number 2 in command) and he had taken on the role of reformer by rooting out money laundering. After his death Putin put in his place a very placid non-reformer Gennady Melikyan and effectively broke up the bank inspection system Kozlov had used to revoke some 50 banking licenses. A lapdog in place of a watchdog.

The overall picture goes like this: since the "fall" of communism, powerful critics or rivals of the regime have a nasty habit of dying prematurely. Just looking at journalists, around 200 have met a violent end since 1992. Now, not all of them need to be victims of the state but a pattern does begin to emerge does it not? In cases like these, you're not going to get anything handed to you that's agreed upon by the majority. If you're a trad you should be used to that by now! Just consider for a moment that any political enemy in Russia that could have done substantial damage to Putin's career is dead, in exile or in prison. You might dismiss one or two or three of these as not being related to Putin, but the numbers start piling up. I stopped believing in coincidences with American politics years ago, so why should I let my guard down for an KGB/FSB thug-turned-kingpin?


So what's your opinion of the Polish Government being taken out April 10, 2010 at Smolensk? On the way to mark the 70th Anniversary of the Katyn Massacre. If you remember a volcano in Iceland was the excuse given to prevent any world leaders from flying to Poland to even be on hand to bury the President of Poland. Curiously the ban was lifted the day following his state funeral.

Not a peep out of the West for this, yet they accused Russia of downing the Malaysian Jet over the Ukraine. Which looks like that was false and shot down by Ukes.
 
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: hollingsworth on January 27, 2015, 12:48:46 PM
Croix:
Quote
In 2006, Andrei Kozlov was the biggest political assassination yet under Putin's regime. He was the Deputy Chairman of Russia's Central Bank (yes they have one and he was number 2 in command) and he had taken on the role of reformer by rooting out money laundering. After his death Putin put in his place a very placid non-reformer Gennady Melikyan and effectively broke up the bank inspection system Kozlov had used to revoke some 50 banking licenses. A lapdog in place of a watchdog.


Still, no real proof that Putin did it.  It was carried out during his regime.  That's all we know with certainly.  Are you alleging, in addition to pinning the assassination on Putin, that Putin is for bank money laundering?  This guy was a reformer, you say.  Putin wants to protect central bank money launders, you seem to affirm.  Is that correct?
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: ggreg on January 27, 2015, 03:36:17 PM
Quote from: Croixalist
Quote from: ggreg
Not sure how all that can be pinned on Putin.

Beslan hostages were Islamic Suicide Terrorists.  That was never going to end well, whomsoever was calling the shots.


They used tanks on a school building with 777 children hostages.


How would you have handled it, in Russia, against fanatical Muslim suicide terrorists who had bombs wired up to do the most damage possible?

It's Southern Russia, things are chaotic there at the best of times.  Even an operation by the SAS would probably not have saved more than 70-80 percent of the hostages, because they terrorists were intent on killing them.

Russians lost about 40%.  Not good, but could have been even worse.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Croixalist on January 27, 2015, 08:14:07 PM
Quote from: Thurifer
So what's your opinion of the Polish Government being taken out April 10, 2010 at Smolensk? On the way to mark the 70th Anniversary of the Katyn Massacre. If you remember a volcano in Iceland was the excuse given to prevent any world leaders from flying to Poland to even be on hand to bury the President of Poland. Curiously the ban was lifted the day following his state funeral.

Not a peep out of the West for this, yet they accused Russia of downing the Malaysian Jet over the Ukraine. Which looks like that was false and shot down by Ukes.
 


I agree, Smolensk was a huge takedown of the last vestiges of European resistance to the EU. I consider it another huge triumph by Russia and the EU. Why put them together? Well, if you follow the idea that Russia never really fell, then that means the soviet bloc countries didn't undergo a complete reversal either. The EU is the perfect cover for Russia to extend it's influence and control over the region without it appearing as though they had anything to do with it, but we know from Golitsyn at least, that this was part of the greater scheme. He predicted it would begin as a trade union but grow exponentially until it became a single sovereign entity.

Something struck me as rather interesting just the other day listening to Poroshenko rail against Putin. He said (and I paraphrase) 'because of Putin/Russia we are united, it is because of Putin/Russia we want to become part of the EU'. Bear in mind this man is also a non-Catholic so I don't automatically feel the need to support him either. I think Ukraine stands to lose either way because Russia controls boths sides of the argument, essentially. It might be less violent for resident Catholics if the decide to join the EU, but as I feel it represents the new soviet bloc, they'd still experience increased persecution.

As long as Russia has their proxies in the west to direct the conflict from the other side, they stand to convince more of their subjects that there is a genuine difference in ideology when they really have one common goal: Russian control of Europe.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Elizabeth on January 27, 2015, 08:39:48 PM
Quote from: Thurifer

So what's your opinion of the Polish Government being taken out April 10, 2010 at Smolensk? On the way to mark the 70th Anniversary of the Katyn Massacre. If you remember a volcano in Iceland was the excuse given to prevent any world leaders from flying to Poland to even be on hand to bury the President of Poland. Curiously the ban was lifted the day following his state funeral.


 


Not only the government but  elites in the arts, religion, science, academia were on the plane.  I followed that incident , but it seemed to go nowhere.  Such an intense mystery!  And the President's twin brother took over, right?
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Croixalist on January 27, 2015, 09:02:13 PM
Quote from: ggreg
How would you have handled it, in Russia, against fanatical Muslim suicide terrorists who had bombs wired up to do the most damage possible?


If you fire a thermobaric rocket at a school, you are more concerned about killing the terrorists than saving children. Just like pumping a theater full of poison gas isn't meant to save hostages. So, sure they can be as heavy-handed as they want but they will betray their priorities in doing so. Value for human life across the board in Russia is very low, certainly not better than any other corrupt nation in the west.

I would certainly not attempt a direct confrontation until all other options were exhausted and even then, being careful to be as precise as possible. There was nothing the Russians did in that situation that would've stopped a massive suicide bombing anyway.

Quote
It's Southern Russia, things are chaotic there at the best of times.  Even an operation by the SAS would probably not have saved more than 70-80 percent of the hostages, because they terrorists were intent on killing them.


How did they get that chaotic? Just as Mexico's complete economic and civil collapse has everything to do with US policy and illegal activities, I don't think for one second that Russia  doesn't use it as a playground for false opposition, especially Chechnya.

Quote
Russians lost about 40%.  Not good, but could have been even worse.


I suppose we should be grateful they didn't nuke them from orbit.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Magna opera Domini on January 27, 2015, 09:40:39 PM
Quote from: MaterDominici
Quote from: Magna opera Domini
Would someone please report whether Fr. Gruner said "yes" or "no" to the question?  

It doesn't take 12 minutes to answer such a simple question, and based on the comments below the video, it sounds like he never said a clear yes or no.  


He said he does not know if Putin asked for a consecration, only that the topic of Fatima was brought up.


Many thanks for your answer.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: ggreg on January 27, 2015, 11:22:45 PM
Quote from: Croixalist


I would certainly not attempt a direct confrontation until all other options were exhausted and even then, being careful to be as precise as possible.


So don't tell me what you wouldn't do.  What would you do?

Here is the timeline.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Beslan_school_hostage_crisis

Quote from: Croixalist

How did they get that chaotic?


Muslim invasion, The Golden Holde, 400 years of take overs by the Turks, Russians and Persians fighting each other, Ivan the Terrible.  That can leave a country pretty messed up for a long time afterwards.

Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Thurifer on January 28, 2015, 12:38:18 AM
Quote from: Elizabeth
Quote from: Thurifer

So what's your opinion of the Polish Government being taken out April 10, 2010 at Smolensk? On the way to mark the 70th Anniversary of the Katyn Massacre. If you remember a volcano in Iceland was the excuse given to prevent any world leaders from flying to Poland to even be on hand to bury the President of Poland. Curiously the ban was lifted the day following his state funeral.


 


Not only the government but  elites in the arts, religion, science, academia were on the plane.  I followed that incident , but it seemed to go nowhere.  Such an intense mystery!  And the President's twin brother took over, right?


Yes, it was like a mini Katyn. Less people but obviously all very highly placed people. Even the head of Poland's Central Bank was on that plane. What I mean by a mini Katyn was that those officers slain 75 years ago were all among the elite. Not all professional soldiers, but the kind of people Russia did not want around after the war.  
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Croixalist on January 28, 2015, 12:51:23 AM
Quote from: ggreg
So don't tell me what you wouldn't do.  What would you do?


I would have supported Aleksandr Dzasokhov as he was the one that brokered the release of 26 women and children before the FSB took over. I am not a hostage negotiator by trade, but I know good results when I see them.

Just like anybody can critique a movie, a piece of artwork, or a faulty church document, based on principle alone without actively needing to have made a single work in those respective fields.

Your timeline only mentions "Russian specialist forces move in" at 1:10 PM on September 3rd. It failed to mention the use of these on the school which led to the fire and collapse of the sports hall, where most of the deaths took place:

(http://www.pravdabeslana.ru/doklad/foto/1.37.jpg)

(http://www.pravdabeslana.ru/doklad/foto/1.36.jpg)

The presence of the FSB was ominous. Essentially there were two teams operating, one on the federal level and one at the local level. Once the FSB took over, the local one had no real authority. Dzasokhov had the safety of the hostages at the top of his list, Putin did not. So first step through last step: Let Dzasokhov direct the negotiations. Do not invite the FSB.

From the website http://www.pravdabeslana.ru/dunlop.htm:
Quote
Summing up Putin’s Role in the Beslan Tragedy: On 1 September 2004, Putin, who had been vacationing on the Black Sea at the resort town of Sochi, returned by plane to Moscow after learning of the hostage-taking incident. Immediately upon his arrival at the airport in Moscow, he held a meeting with the head of the Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs (MVD), Rashid Nurgaliev, with the prosecutor general Vladimir Ustinov, with the director of the FSB, Nikolai Patrushev, and with the first deputy director of the FSB and commander of the Russian border-guards, Vladimir Pronichev.50 The presence of General Pronichev at this meeting was particularly significant. It was he who had overseen the storming of a theater building at Dubrovka in Moscow in October 2002 in which 174 hostages had perished from the effects of a special gas employed by the FSB.51

Following this meeting with his power ministers, Putin, at about noon on the first, placed a call on a special phone to the president of North Ossetia, Aleksandr Dzasokhov. Putin gave Dzasokhov “an [oral] command to hand over the organization of the counter-terrorist operation to the organs of the FSB.”52 This account, it should be noted, is in full accord with what Putin told Le Monde in the afore-mentioned interview published in the 1 June 2008 issue of the French newspaper. Putin manifestly had no intention of negotiating with the terrorists and outsourced the decision concerning how and when to storm the school to the FSB and, in particular, to the FSB spetsnaz (special forces) under the command of General Aleksandr Tikhonov. Putin then disappeared from public view until the morning of 4 September when the storming of the school had been completed.


In the end I have to agree with the "Voice of Breslan" in their assessment:

Quote
Putin’s confirmation that he had never intended to negotiate with the terrorists at Beslan drew an angry response from the members of the “Voice of Beslan” organization. “The death of 333 persons in the Beslan terrorist act,” they wrote, “testifies to the negligent attitude of Putin toward his official duties.” “Since in Beslan on 1-3 September,” they continued, “the power structures, subordinated to the president of the Russian Federation, committed a crime, refusing to engage in negotiations [with the terrorists] and making use of the army, by so doing they comprised a criminal association [soobshchestvo].” Putin, the Mothers declared, “together with the terrorists, disregarded the lives of children and adults and thus bears with them a responsibility for the deaths of people.” Accordingly, “Voice of Beslan” demanded that the Russian prime minister be summoned for questioning and that criminal charges be leveled against him according to eleven articles of the Russian Criminal Code. Among these articles there was “murder, committed in the exceeding of the limits of the necessary defense or in exceeding the measures needed to take into custody persons having committed a crime” (Article 108), and “the intentional causing harm to the health of persons in various degrees of gravity” (Articles 111. 112, 114 and 115), as well as “negligence.” (Article 282)39


This was a Waco-equivalent event for Russia and Putin in particular. He deserves all the criticism he gets for this.

By the way, remember journalist and Putin critic Anna Politkovskaya? The same one murdered in 2006? Well, back on the first day of the Beslan hostage crisis, she got on the first flight she could find, intent on assisting with the negotiations. She was poisoned by a cup of tea she drank on the plane and nearly died. Another convenient development for Putin and his cronies!
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: ggreg on January 28, 2015, 05:59:39 AM
The local forces had not even established a security cordon around the school, thanks to the mismanagement of Dzasokhov

There were hundreds upon hundreds of locals and parents many of whom were armed.  That hardly strikes me as a desirable thing to have.  Those people should have been pulled back and full security cordon thrown up if for no other reason that to avoid a random crazed parent or group of them attacking the school.

Because he failed to do that, by the time the FSB turned up those people did not want to move and that made their job doubly difficult.

You are dealing with suicide terrorists with 1100 hostages, nearly 800 of them children.  They were armed to the teeth and dearly determined to die.  With a sh!t sandwich like that there is no way you are going to come out with less than 100 dead and you could have easily lost 60 percent.

The Western world has a policy of negotiating with terrorists to save every possible life.  The Russians don't have that policy.  Their top priority is to kill the terrorists and then to save as many hostages a possible.

Hard, yes, but I can see an upside to it.  How many Russian ships have been attacked by Somali Pirates recently?  How many hostage situations has Russia faced in the last 10 years after the Moscow Theatre and Beslan?
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Croixalist on January 29, 2015, 10:11:26 AM
Quote from: ggreg
The local forces had not even established a security cordon around the school, thanks to the mismanagement of Dzasokhov

There were hundreds upon hundreds of locals and parents many of whom were armed.  That hardly strikes me as a desirable thing to have.  Those people should have been pulled back and full security cordon thrown up if for no other reason that to avoid a random crazed parent or group of them attacking the school.

Because he failed to do that, by the time the FSB turned up those people did not want to move and that made their job doubly difficult.

You are dealing with suicide terrorists with 1100 hostages, nearly 800 of them children.  They were armed to the teeth and dearly determined to die.  With a sh!t sandwich like that there is no way you are going to come out with less than 100 dead and you could have easily lost 60 percent.

The Western world has a policy of negotiating with terrorists to save every possible life.  The Russians don't have that policy.  Their top priority is to kill the terrorists and then to save as many hostages a possible.

Hard, yes, but I can see an upside to it.  How many Russian ships have been attacked by Somali Pirates recently?  How many hostage situations has Russia faced in the last 10 years after the Moscow Theatre and Beslan?


Still, the man was a proven negotiator up until the FSB took over. Those "crazed" parents couldn't possibly do more damage than the Spetznas did.

Hostage crises are fairly rare to begin with. There's no way to tell how much this has really put off suicidally homicidal terrorists, but we have to allow for disagreement there. Russia just had their first school shooting by a student last year, and Russia seems to be vacillating between supporting gun control and supporting gun ownership... sound familiar?  

The Somali pirate situation has been in decline for some years now, but Russia did have it's share of pirate attacks during the height of their aggression. Thankfully, as far as I can tell the Russian Navy did do its best to ensure the hostages were safe before attacking the pirates though on at least one occasion in 2010.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Christopher67 on January 29, 2015, 11:26:48 PM
This thing has gotten way off topic............Father Gruner ONLY wants the Pope to consecrate Russia....that's it.....Why this thread has rambled and rumbled into so much more is beyond me...If you dont believe the consecration has been done.....get on board....if you do...shut it....
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Croixalist on January 30, 2015, 08:27:58 AM
You're telling me you didn't get anything out of that discussion? Whether you agree with me or not, surely something in there would have been of use, no?

Maybe not.  :tinfoil:

Well I guess we could rail about Gruner for 10 pages, but the CFN Special Forces would hunt me down like a dog!

Nah, I don't even have it in me for one critical post about Gruner.

Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Thurifer7 on January 30, 2015, 11:30:26 AM
Quote from: Christopher67
This thing has gotten way off topic............Father Gruner ONLY wants the Pope to consecrate Russia....that's it.....Why this thread has rambled and rumbled into so much more is beyond me...If you dont believe the consecration has been done.....get on board....if you do...shut it....


Thanks.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Nishant on February 01, 2015, 04:47:34 AM
While I respect both Fr. Gruner and Fr. Kramer, they seem to have modified somewhat the earlier perspective they had on Russia. Namely, that on account of the negligence of the authorities to consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart, God would use Russia to chastise the west before her conversion. Do they now view prophecies such as that below, cited by them earlier, as purely conditional? From http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/fatima6b.htm

Quote
Sister Elena Aiello [+1961] who is of great renown for her prophecies was told by Our Lady: "My Heart is sad for so many sufferings in an impending world in ruin . . . The wrath of God is near. Soon the world will be afflicted with great calamities, bloody revolutions, frightful hurricanes and the overflowing of rivers and the seas . . . the world will be overturned in a new and more terrible war. Arms most deadly will destroy peoples and nations. The dictators of the earth, specimens infernal, will demolish the churches and desecrate the Holy Eucharist, and will destroy things most dear. In this impious war, much will be destroyed of that which has been built by the hands of man . . .

   "Another terrible war will come from the east to the west. Russia with her secret armies will battle America; will overrun Europe. The river Rhine will be overflowing with corpses and blood. Italy, also, will be harassed by a great revolution, and the Pope will suffer terribly . . .

   "Russia will march upon all the nations of Europe, particularly Italy, and will raise her flag over the dome of St. Peter's. Italy will be severely tried by a great revolution and Rome will be purified for its many sins, especially those of impurity . . ." In the apparition of Our Lady of Good Success, which took place on February 2, 1634, the Mother of God revealed to Mother Mary Anne of Jesus Torres: "there will be a terrible war in which the blood of priests and of religious will flow . . . wickedness will seem triumphant." The same was foretold by Sister Rose Asdente of Taggia [+1847]: "There shall be great confusion of people 'against people, and nations against nations. The Russians," she explains, "shall come to make war on Italy . . . Priests and religious shall be butchered and the earth, especially in Italy, shall be watered with their blood ..."

Sister Lucy elaborated this topic on December 26, 1957, saying to Father Fuentes: "Tell them Father that many times the Most Holy Virgin told my cousins Francisco and Jacinta, as well as myself, that many nations will disappear from the face of the earth. She said that Russia will be the instrument of chastisement chosen by Heaven to punish the whole world if we do not beforehand obtain the conversion of that poor nation."

It appears that the world today is truly "on the verge of a frightful abyss". The prophetic revelations made to Sister Elena Aiello confirm the earlier prophecies of St. John Bosco, Blessed Anna Maria Taigi and others that there will be a great war waged against the Western nations by Russia, China and the Islamic nations.  
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: ProtectorofOrder on February 01, 2015, 07:12:00 AM
I think Communist ideology plagiarized some ideas from Christianity that would be very popular among most if people were not so sinful today and distorted them. Here's one of the examples of the ideas they have stolen to compete with us, Jesus and The True Church were the true inventors of Welfare. It is a stolen banner:

Proverbs 19:17

"Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will repay him for his deed."

Matthew 5:42

"Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you."

Luke 14:12-14

"He said also to the man who had invited him, “When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return and you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. For you will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.”

Proverbs 22:9

"Whoever has a bountiful eye will be blessed, for he shares his bread with the poor."

Back in Christendom when the church and the state were one. The Church provided the welfare. Jesus himself taught us to be humble when we can and to help the poor. The tithings were used for welfare services to fund the church, assist and provide aid to the poor. The poor received free medical care and free food from The Church if they couldn't afford it to survive.

What has happened is that Socialists want to replace the role of The Church with the party or the state. They have created their own atheistic godless counterpart which sometimes leads to the worship of the state or leader even. Copying the system of Christendom and distorting it to create an atheist counterpart. Taxing the population is their counterpart of tithing.
Title: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
Post by: Croixalist on February 01, 2015, 03:43:47 PM
Quote from: Nishant
While I respect both Fr. Gruner and Fr. Kramer, they seem to have modified somewhat the earlier perspective they had on Russia. Namely, that on account of the negligence of the authorities to consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart, God would use Russia to chastise the west before her conversion. Do they now view prophecies such as that below, cited by them earlier, as purely conditional? From http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/fatima6b.htm


It would appear so. Very strange!

Quote from: ProtectorofOrder
I think Communist ideology plagiarized some ideas from Christianity that would be very popular among most if people were not so sinful today and distorted them. Here's one of the examples of the ideas they have stolen to compete with us, Jesus and The True Church were the true inventors of Welfare. It is a stolen banner:

Proverbs 19:17

"Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will repay him for his deed."

Matthew 5:42

"Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you."

Luke 14:12-14

"He said also to the man who had invited him, “When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return and you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. For you will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.”

Proverbs 22:9

"Whoever has a bountiful eye will be blessed, for he shares his bread with the poor."

Back in Christendom when the church and the state were one. The Church provided the welfare. Jesus himself taught us to be humble when we can and to help the poor. The tithings were used for welfare services to fund the church, assist and provide aid to the poor. The poor received free medical care and free food from The Church if they couldn't afford it to survive.

What has happened is that Socialists want to replace the role of The Church with the party or the state. They have created their own atheistic godless counterpart which sometimes leads to the worship of the state or leader even. Copying the system of Christendom and distorting it to create an atheist counterpart. Taxing the population is their counterpart of tithing.


Good observation.

The first step is spreading false victimhood among the populace as opposed to the one and only true Victim, Christ. Then they frame Catholicism and it's various effects on society as the identified oppressor. Next, a pseudo-messiah must be propped up to crush the identified oppressor in order to liberate the false victims. This often includes a depiction of false piety and a transfer of positive traits from the Church to whoever or whatever is running counter to it. You might be able to argue that there is a corresponding infernal mockery of how the Church occasionally redirects useful contributions from non-Christian cultures and makes them her own.

It's a simple and seductive technique that few are able to fight effectively against.