Author Topic: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia? (Read 15375 times)

ggreg · « **Reply #45 on:** January 26, 2015, 05:38:33 PM »

Not sure how all that can be pinned on Putin.

Beslan hostages were Islamic ѕυιcιdє Terrorists. That was never going to end well, whomsoever was calling the shots.

hollingsworth · « **Reply #46 on:** January 26, 2015, 07:47:35 PM »

Croix:

Quote

Just a little assassination here and there (Litvinenko, Politkovskaya, Yushenkov, Shchekochikhin, Starovoitova, Girenko, Klebnikov, Kozlov, Markelov, Estemirova), the Pechatniki apartment bombing, the Moscow theater hostage gassing, the Beslan school hostage slaughter, the poisoning of Yushchenko, his pillaging of the Catholic communities in Crimea, his affair and divorce, and whatever else he happened to be part of during his time in that angelic institution, the KGB/FSB.

But all those deaths were coincidentally convenient, and the ends always justified the means!

Wait a minute! I've never heard of any of these people, and certainly not in connection with assassinations that might have been carried out against them by Putin. I'm not aware, either, of all the other horrific incidents mentioned having been instigated by Putin. The Western media hates Putin. Wouldn't they be jumping all over the Russian leader for these things on a daily basis? I mean the press still constantly impugns and vilifies Hitler for crimes real and alleged that this German leader committed 70 years ago. Gives us an update on just one of these folks you're talking about. I'll choose one at random for you. How about "Kozlov?" What did Kozlov do? And how was Putin involved either directly or indirectly in his "assassination?" You're throwing out a lot of names. I just ask for information about this one, for now.

Croixalist · « **Reply #47 on:** January 27, 2015, 09:47:35 AM »

Quote from: hollingsworth

Croix:
Quote
Just a little assassination here and there (Litvinenko, Politkovskaya, Yushenkov, Shchekochikhin, Starovoitova, Girenko, Klebnikov, Kozlov, Markelov, Estemirova), the Pechatniki apartment bombing, the Moscow theater hostage gassing, the Beslan school hostage slaughter, the poisoning of Yushchenko, his pillaging of the Catholic communities in Crimea, his affair and divorce, and whatever else he happened to be part of during his time in that angelic institution, the KGB/FSB.

But all those deaths were coincidentally convenient, and the ends always justified the means!

Wait a minute! I've never heard of any of these people, and certainly not in connection with assassinations that might have been carried out against them by Putin. I'm not aware, either, of all the other horrific incidents mentioned having been instigated by Putin. The Western media hates Putin. Wouldn't they be jumping all over the Russian leader for these things on a daily basis? I mean the press still constantly impugns and vilifies Hitler for crimes real and alleged that this German leader committed 70 years ago. Gives us an update on just one of these folks you're talking about. I'll choose one at random for you. How about "Kozlov?" What did Kozlov do? And how was Putin involved either directly or indirectly in his "assassination?" You're throwing out a lot of names. I just ask for information about this one, for now.

In 2006, Andrei Kozlov was the biggest political assassination yet under Putin's regime. He was the Deputy Chairman of Russia's Central Bank (yes they have one and he was number 2 in command) and he had taken on the role of reformer by rooting out money laundering. After his death Putin put in his place a very placid non-reformer Gennady Melikyan and effectively broke up the bank inspection system Kozlov had used to revoke some 50 banking licenses. A lapdog in place of a watchdog.

The overall picture goes like this: since the "fall" of communism, powerful critics or rivals of the regime have a nasty habit of dying prematurely. Just looking at journalists, around 200 have met a violent end since 1992. Now, not all of them need to be victims of the state but a pattern does begin to emerge does it not? In cases like these, you're not going to get anything handed to you that's agreed upon by the majority. If you're a trad you should be used to that by now! Just consider for a moment that any political enemy in Russia that could have done substantial damage to Putin's career is dead, in exile or in prison. You might dismiss one or two or three of these as not being related to Putin, but the numbers start piling up. I stopped believing in coincidences with American politics years ago, so why should I let my guard down for an KGB/FSB thug-turned-kingpin?

Croixalist · « **Reply #48 on:** January 27, 2015, 10:01:02 AM »

Quote from: ggreg

Not sure how all that can be pinned on Putin.

Beslan hostages were Islamic ѕυιcιdє Terrorists. That was never going to end well, whomsoever was calling the shots.

They used tanks on a school building with 777 children hostages.

Thurifer · « **Reply #49 on:** January 27, 2015, 10:40:23 AM »

Quote from: Croixalist

Quote from: hollingsworth
Croix:
Quote
Just a little assassination here and there (Litvinenko, Politkovskaya, Yushenkov, Shchekochikhin, Starovoitova, Girenko, Klebnikov, Kozlov, Markelov, Estemirova), the Pechatniki apartment bombing, the Moscow theater hostage gassing, the Beslan school hostage slaughter, the poisoning of Yushchenko, his pillaging of the Catholic communities in Crimea, his affair and divorce, and whatever else he happened to be part of during his time in that angelic institution, the KGB/FSB.

But all those deaths were coincidentally convenient, and the ends always justified the means!

Wait a minute! I've never heard of any of these people, and certainly not in connection with assassinations that might have been carried out against them by Putin. I'm not aware, either, of all the other horrific incidents mentioned having been instigated by Putin. The Western media hates Putin. Wouldn't they be jumping all over the Russian leader for these things on a daily basis? I mean the press still constantly impugns and vilifies Hitler for crimes real and alleged that this German leader committed 70 years ago. Gives us an update on just one of these folks you're talking about. I'll choose one at random for you. How about "Kozlov?" What did Kozlov do? And how was Putin involved either directly or indirectly in his "assassination?" You're throwing out a lot of names. I just ask for information about this one, for now.

In 2006, Andrei Kozlov was the biggest political assassination yet under Putin's regime. He was the Deputy Chairman of Russia's Central Bank (yes they have one and he was number 2 in command) and he had taken on the role of reformer by rooting out money laundering. After his death Putin put in his place a very placid non-reformer Gennady Melikyan and effectively broke up the bank inspection system Kozlov had used to revoke some 50 banking licenses. A lapdog in place of a watchdog.

The overall picture goes like this: since the "fall" of communism, powerful critics or rivals of the regime have a nasty habit of dying prematurely. Just looking at journalists, around 200 have met a violent end since 1992. Now, not all of them need to be victims of the state but a pattern does begin to emerge does it not? In cases like these, you're not going to get anything handed to you that's agreed upon by the majority. If you're a trad you should be used to that by now! Just consider for a moment that any political enemy in Russia that could have done substantial damage to Putin's career is dead, in exile or in prison. You might dismiss one or two or three of these as not being related to Putin, but the numbers start piling up. I stopped believing in coincidences with American politics years ago, so why should I let my guard down for an KGB/FSB thug-turned-kingpin?

So what's your opinion of the Polish Government being taken out April 10, 2010 at Smolensk? On the way to mark the 70th Anniversary of the Katyn Massacre. If you remember a volcano in Iceland was the excuse given to prevent any world leaders from flying to Poland to even be on hand to bury the President of Poland. Curiously the ban was lifted the day following his state funeral.

Not a peep out of the West for this, yet they accused Russia of downing the Malaysian Jet over the Ukraine. Which looks like that was false and shot down by Ukes.

hollingsworth · « **Reply #50 on:** January 27, 2015, 12:48:46 PM »

Croix:

Quote

In 2006, Andrei Kozlov was the biggest political assassination yet under Putin's regime. He was the Deputy Chairman of Russia's Central Bank (yes they have one and he was number 2 in command) and he had taken on the role of reformer by rooting out money laundering. After his death Putin put in his place a very placid non-reformer Gennady Melikyan and effectively broke up the bank inspection system Kozlov had used to revoke some 50 banking licenses. A lapdog in place of a watchdog.

Still, no real proof that Putin did it. It was carried out during his regime. That's all we know with certainly. Are you alleging, in addition to pinning the assassination on Putin, that Putin is for bank money laundering? This guy was a reformer, you say. Putin wants to protect central bank money launders, you seem to affirm. Is that correct?

ggreg · « **Reply #51 on:** January 27, 2015, 03:36:17 PM »

Quote from: Croixalist

Quote from: ggreg
Not sure how all that can be pinned on Putin.

Beslan hostages were Islamic ѕυιcιdє Terrorists. That was never going to end well, whomsoever was calling the shots.

They used tanks on a school building with 777 children hostages.

How would you have handled it, in Russia, against fanatical Muslim ѕυιcιdє terrorists who had bombs wired up to do the most damage possible?

It's Southern Russia, things are chaotic there at the best of times. Even an operation by the SAS would probably not have saved more than 70-80 percent of the hostages, because they terrorists were intent on killing them.

Russians lost about 40%. Not good, but could have been even worse.

Croixalist · « **Reply #52 on:** January 27, 2015, 08:14:07 PM »

Quote from: Thurifer

So what's your opinion of the Polish Government being taken out April 10, 2010 at Smolensk? On the way to mark the 70th Anniversary of the Katyn Massacre. If you remember a volcano in Iceland was the excuse given to prevent any world leaders from flying to Poland to even be on hand to bury the President of Poland. Curiously the ban was lifted the day following his state funeral.

Not a peep out of the West for this, yet they accused Russia of downing the Malaysian Jet over the Ukraine. Which looks like that was false and shot down by Ukes.

I agree, Smolensk was a huge takedown of the last vestiges of European resistance to the EU. I consider it another huge triumph by Russia and the EU. Why put them together? Well, if you follow the idea that Russia never really fell, then that means the soviet bloc countries didn't undergo a complete reversal either. The EU is the perfect cover for Russia to extend it's influence and control over the region without it appearing as though they had anything to do with it, but we know from Golitsyn at least, that this was part of the greater scheme. He predicted it would begin as a trade union but grow exponentially until it became a single sovereign entity.

Something struck me as rather interesting just the other day listening to Poroshenko rail against Putin. He said (and I paraphrase) 'because of Putin/Russia we are united, it is because of Putin/Russia we want to become part of the EU'. Bear in mind this man is also a non-Catholic so I don't automatically feel the need to support him either. I think Ukraine stands to lose either way because Russia controls boths sides of the argument, essentially. It might be less violent for resident Catholics if the decide to join the EU, but as I feel it represents the new soviet bloc, they'd still experience increased persecution.

As long as Russia has their proxies in the west to direct the conflict from the other side, they stand to convince more of their subjects that there is a genuine difference in ideology when they really have one common goal: Russian control of Europe.

Elizabeth · « **Reply #53 on:** January 27, 2015, 08:39:48 PM »

Quote from: Thurifer

So what's your opinion of the Polish Government being taken out April 10, 2010 at Smolensk? On the way to mark the 70th Anniversary of the Katyn Massacre. If you remember a volcano in Iceland was the excuse given to prevent any world leaders from flying to Poland to even be on hand to bury the President of Poland. Curiously the ban was lifted the day following his state funeral.

Not only the government but elites in the arts, religion, science, academia were on the plane. I followed that incident , but it seemed to go nowhere. Such an intense mystery! And the President's twin brother took over, right?

Croixalist · « **Reply #54 on:** January 27, 2015, 09:02:13 PM »

Quote from: ggreg

How would you have handled it, in Russia, against fanatical Muslim ѕυιcιdє terrorists who had bombs wired up to do the most damage possible?

If you fire a thermobaric rocket at a school, you are more concerned about killing the terrorists than saving children. Just like pumping a theater full of poison gas isn't meant to save hostages. So, sure they can be as heavy-handed as they want but they will betray their priorities in doing so. Value for human life across the board in Russia is very low, certainly not better than any other corrupt nation in the west.

I would certainly not attempt a direct confrontation until all other options were exhausted and even then, being careful to be as precise as possible. There was nothing the Russians did in that situation that would've stopped a massive ѕυιcιdє bombing anyway.

Quote

It's Southern Russia, things are chaotic there at the best of times. Even an operation by the SAS would probably not have saved more than 70-80 percent of the hostages, because they terrorists were intent on killing them.

How did they get that chaotic? Just as Mexico's complete economic and civil collapse has everything to do with US policy and illegal activities, I don't think for one second that Russia doesn't use it as a playground for false opposition, especially Chechnya.

Quote

Russians lost about 40%. Not good, but could have been even worse.

I suppose we should be grateful they didn't nuke them from orbit.

Magna opera Domini · « **Reply #55 on:** January 27, 2015, 09:40:39 PM »

Quote from: MaterDominici

Quote from: Magna opera Domini
Would someone please report whether Fr. Gruner said "yes" or "no" to the question?

It doesn't take 12 minutes to answer such a simple question, and based on the comments below the video, it sounds like he never said a clear yes or no.

He said he does not know if Putin asked for a consecration, only that the topic of Fatima was brought up.

Many thanks for your answer.

ggreg · « **Reply #56 on:** January 27, 2015, 11:22:45 PM »

Quote from: Croixalist

I would certainly not attempt a direct confrontation until all other options were exhausted and even then, being careful to be as precise as possible.

So don't tell me what you wouldn't do. What would you do?

Here is the timeline.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Beslan_school_hostage_crisis

Quote from: Croixalist

How did they get that chaotic?

Muslim invasion, The Golden Holde, 400 years of take overs by the Turks, Russians and Persians fighting each other, Ivan the Terrible. That can leave a country pretty messed up for a long time afterwards.

Thurifer · « **Reply #57 on:** January 28, 2015, 12:38:18 AM »

Quote from: Elizabeth

Quote from: Thurifer

So what's your opinion of the Polish Government being taken out April 10, 2010 at Smolensk? On the way to mark the 70th Anniversary of the Katyn Massacre. If you remember a volcano in Iceland was the excuse given to prevent any world leaders from flying to Poland to even be on hand to bury the President of Poland. Curiously the ban was lifted the day following his state funeral.

Not only the government but elites in the arts, religion, science, academia were on the plane. I followed that incident , but it seemed to go nowhere. Such an intense mystery! And the President's twin brother took over, right?

Yes, it was like a mini Katyn. Less people but obviously all very highly placed people. Even the head of Poland's Central Bank was on that plane. What I mean by a mini Katyn was that those officers slain 75 years ago were all among the elite. Not all professional soldiers, but the kind of people Russia did not want around after the war.

Croixalist · « **Reply #58 on:** January 28, 2015, 12:51:23 AM »

Quote from: ggreg

So don't tell me what you wouldn't do. What would you do?

I would have supported Aleksandr Dzasokhov as he was the one that brokered the release of 26 women and children before the FSB took over. I am not a hostage negotiator by trade, but I know good results when I see them.

Just like anybody can critique a movie, a piece of artwork, or a faulty church docuмent, based on principle alone without actively needing to have made a single work in those respective fields.

Your timeline only mentions "Russian specialist forces move in" at 1:10 PM on September 3rd. It failed to mention the use of these on the school which led to the fire and collapse of the sports hall, where most of the deaths took place:

The presence of the FSB was ominous. Essentially there were two teams operating, one on the federal level and one at the local level. Once the FSB took over, the local one had no real authority. Dzasokhov had the safety of the hostages at the top of his list, Putin did not. So first step through last step: Let Dzasokhov direct the negotiations. Do not invite the FSB.

From the website http://www.pravdabeslana.ru/dunlop.htm:

Quote

Summing up Putin’s Role in the Beslan Tragedy: On 1 September 2004, Putin, who had been vacationing on the Black Sea at the resort town of Sochi, returned by plane to Moscow after learning of the hostage-taking incident. Immediately upon his arrival at the airport in Moscow, he held a meeting with the head of the Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs (MVD), Rashid Nurgaliev, with the prosecutor general Vladimir Ustinov, with the director of the FSB, Nikolai Patrushev, and with the first deputy director of the FSB and commander of the Russian border-guards, Vladimir Pronichev.50 The presence of General Pronichev at this meeting was particularly significant. It was he who had overseen the storming of a theater building at Dubrovka in Moscow in October 2002 in which 174 hostages had perished from the effects of a special gas employed by the FSB.51

Following this meeting with his power ministers, Putin, at about noon on the first, placed a call on a special phone to the president of North Ossetia, Aleksandr Dzasokhov. Putin gave Dzasokhov “an [oral] command to hand over the organization of the counter-terrorist operation to the organs of the FSB.”52 This account, it should be noted, is in full accord with what Putin told Le Monde in the afore-mentioned interview published in the 1 June 2008 issue of the French newspaper. Putin manifestly had no intention of negotiating with the terrorists and outsourced the decision concerning how and when to storm the school to the FSB and, in particular, to the FSB spetsnaz (special forces) under the command of General Aleksandr Tikhonov. Putin then disappeared from public view until the morning of 4 September when the storming of the school had been completed.

In the end I have to agree with the "Voice of Breslan" in their assessment:

Quote

Putin’s confirmation that he had never intended to negotiate with the terrorists at Beslan drew an angry response from the members of the “Voice of Beslan” organization. “The death of 333 persons in the Beslan terrorist act,” they wrote, “testifies to the negligent attitude of Putin toward his official duties.” “Since in Beslan on 1-3 September,” they continued, “the power structures, subordinated to the president of the Russian Federation, committed a crime, refusing to engage in negotiations [with the terrorists] and making use of the army, by so doing they comprised a criminal association [soobshchestvo].” Putin, the Mothers declared, “together with the terrorists, disregarded the lives of children and adults and thus bears with them a responsibility for the deaths of people.” Accordingly, “Voice of Beslan” demanded that the Russian prime minister be summoned for questioning and that criminal charges be leveled against him according to eleven articles of the Russian Criminal Code. Among these articles there was “murder, committed in the exceeding of the limits of the necessary defense or in exceeding the measures needed to take into custody persons having committed a crime” (Article 108), and “the intentional causing harm to the health of persons in various degrees of gravity” (Articles 111. 112, 114 and 115), as well as “negligence.” (Article 282)39

This was a Waco-equivalent event for Russia and Putin in particular. He deserves all the criticism he gets for this.

By the way, remember journalist and Putin critic Anna Politkovskaya? The same one murdered in 2006? Well, back on the first day of the Beslan hostage crisis, she got on the first flight she could find, intent on assisting with the negotiations. She was poisoned by a cup of tea she drank on the plane and nearly died. Another convenient development for Putin and his cronies!

ggreg · « **Reply #59 on:** January 28, 2015, 05:59:39 AM »

The local forces had not even established a security cordon around the school, thanks to the mismanagement of Dzasokhov

There were hundreds upon hundreds of locals and parents many of whom were armed. That hardly strikes me as a desirable thing to have. Those people should have been pulled back and full security cordon thrown up if for no other reason that to avoid a random crazed parent or group of them attacking the school.

Because he failed to do that, by the time the FSB turned up those people did not want to move and that made their job doubly difficult.

You are dealing with ѕυιcιdє terrorists with 1100 hostages, nearly 800 of them children. They were armed to the teeth and dearly determined to die. With a sh!t sandwich like that there is no way you are going to come out with less than 100 dead and you could have easily lost 60 percent.

The Western world has a policy of negotiating with terrorists to save every possible life. The Russians don't have that policy. Their top priority is to kill the terrorists and then to save as many hostages a possible.

Hard, yes, but I can see an upside to it. How many Russian ships have been attacked by Somali Pirates recently? How many hostage situations has Russia faced in the last 10 years after the Moscow Theatre and Beslan?