Author Topic: Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?  (Read 12792 times)

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Offline ggreg

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Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2015, 12:43:47 AM »
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  • Quote from: Croixalist


    I guess I missed the part where he dismantled the Russian Mafia. I missed the part where he disbanded the Communist Party. I missed the part where he took down all the communist symbols, especially the hammer and sickle, from places like say... Red Square? If they don't actively venerate Lenin, why do they still have his body on display.




    Why do they still have high altars in St Peters Basilica?  They never use them.  Why do they have altar rails in many Cathedrals? They never use them.

    I don't know anyone, other than tourists, who have gone to see Lenin's body.  I know 100s of  Muscovites and none of them have ever been there.  Neither have I.  I got married in Red Square.  Well technically in a Church nearby but afterwards we all went to Red Square to celebrate.

    I think the Russians probably keep it as a reminder of their past. Much like the Vatican keep those high altars and other architectural features, they no longer need.

    Very many of the hammers and sickles and other communist symbols have been taken down.  In fact they were taken down in the early to mid 1990s.  There are no prominent ones on display any longer, but where they are on a granite panel etc then they have not been chiselled off as the feeling is that architecture and history are important and a symbol does not contain some sort of magical power or evil.

    Why not? Because Russians have a different attitude to suffering than westerners.  Often rather than looking for someone to blame they blame themselves. And while all acknowledge that the 20th Century was very nasty, they don't pretend that the 19th century was all roses either.  Yes communism killed lots of people but it also educated them, entertained them and in a certain sense civilised them.  They view it like a drunk parent with a foul temper who beat them but also made them stand on their own two feet and learn to work.  Whereas the Tsar was a sober parent who did nothing for them and just let them live in Mom's basement wasting away, unmarried, unprepared to deal with the world, unable to earn a living and scared to try.

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    I remember those golden words falling out of Putin's mouth "Above all, we should acknowledge that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a major geopolitical disaster of the century".


    It was.  Had they had a smooth transition to a market economy and privatised fairly and justly and not had lots of greedy ruthless types stealing assets at the point is a gun it would have been much better.  The collapse was a disaster and they are still picking up the pieces now.

    They could have built a middle classes and carefully managed the transition.  Encouraged people to pay taxes.  Paid police, nurses, doctors fairly and not allowed Oligarchs to steal and bribe.

    Likewise, in America, the time of the robber barons was a geopolitical disaster because it created an all powerful political class and a ruthless crony capitalism.

    Offline Croixalist

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #31 on: January 24, 2015, 02:01:21 AM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg
    Why do they still have high altars in St Peters Basilica?  They never use them.  Why do they have altar rails in many Cathedrals? They never use them.


    Communists still have a party over there and thus, get far more use out of communist founders and symbolism than VII Catholics get from altar rails. The rails do have an aesthetic quality beside their functionality, which is more than I can say for the hideous mugs of Marx, Lenin, Stalin or the various symbols left over from the Soviet regime.

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    I don't know anyone, other than tourists, who have gone to see Lenin's body.  I know 100s of  Muscovites and none of them have ever been there.  Neither have I.
     

    Doesn't matter how many visitors he gets, Lenin is one of the strongest communist symbols in history. Why even leave it up to interpretation and kick his carcass over the Caucasus? It certainly looks like tacit approval, if not outright veneration.
     
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    I got married in Red Square.  Well technically in a Church nearby but afterwards we all went to Red Square to celebrate.


    Are you a convert to Catholicism then?

    Quote
    I think the Russians probably keep it as a reminder of their past. Much like the Vatican keep those high altars and other architectural features, they no longer need.

    Very many of the hammers and sickles and other communist symbols have been taken down.  In fact they were taken down in the early to mid 1990s.  There are no prominent ones on display any longer, but where they are on a granite panel etc then they have not been chiselled off as the feeling is that architecture and history are important and a symbol does not contain some sort of magical power or evil.


    But not all of them and as we know, all those symbols come back in force once May 9th comes around...

    I don't care how beautiful a building is, if I see a swastika, it's got to go. Even more so with the Hammer and Sickle. Now we don't all have control over everything that is promoted or permitted by our respective states, but let's not make excuses for them. A symbol isn't magic but it does occasionally have the potential of carrying an indelible mark. You mean to tell me that the Hammer and Sickle represent Russia more than it does Soviet Communism? If the swastika can't be rehabilitated, the h&s doesn't have a chance!
     
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    Why not? Because Russians have a different attitude to suffering than westerners.  Often rather than looking for someone to blame they blame themselves. And while all acknowledge that the 20th Century was very nasty, they don't pretend that the 19th century was all roses either.  Yes communism killed lots of people but it also educated them, entertained them and in a certain sense civilised them.  They view it like a drunk parent with a foul temper who beat them but also made them stand on their own two feet and learn to work.  Whereas the Tsar was a sober parent who did nothing for them and just let them live in Mom's basement wasting away, unmarried, unprepared to deal with the world, unable to earn a living and scared to try.


    Pride and Stockholm syndrome aside, none of it is Catholic. History might have been alot different had the Tsars converted! You might be able to shed some light on why Catholicism or even Catholic-aligned Eastern Rite is so unpopular for Russians.

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    It was. Had they had a smooth transition to a market economy and privatised fairly and justly and not had lots of greedy ruthless types stealing assets at the point is a gun it would have been much better.  The collapse was a disaster and they are still picking up the pieces now.

    They could have built a middle classes and carefully managed the transition.  Encouraged people to pay taxes.  Paid police, nurses, doctors fairly and not allowed Oligarchs to steal and bribe.


    This comes off sounding very practical at the expense of true conversion. Food and drink are secondary to the needs of the spirit. Thugs on every political spectrum will come and go. If there is no one to say the Mass, that's when you start to worry! Russia might be eating better now, but they are as much of a desert as the next country without the true faith. The disaster of the "fall" of communism was nothing compared to it's establishment. Not just for Russia, but for the entire world. If it was a greater disaster, it's only because the Catholic population declined and never recovered.

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    Likewise, in America, the time of the robber barons was a geopolitical disaster because it created an all powerful political class and a ruthless crony capitalism.


    I'm speaking as a Catholic, one who values that affiliation above everything else. Though I admit to being biased for my home country, I also recognize that the US won't be able to effect any lasting positive change until it becomes a Catholic nation as well. Of course the old gilded age was garbage, but now our new gilded age has piled up all the combined errors of modern man which no country is exempt from. It's our very own New World Disorder.

    Cultural differences aside, all I care about is the plight of the true Church. The only reason I'm making an exception for Russia is that Our Lady made it known to the world first. I believe Russia will do incredible things and possibly be one of the greatest Catholic nations the Church has ever known, but only after its consecration.
    Fortuna finem habet.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #32 on: January 24, 2015, 07:39:17 AM »
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  • Quote from: Croixalist
    Quote from: ggreg
    Why do they still have high altars in St Peters Basilica?  They never use them.  Why do they have altar rails in many Cathedrals? They never use them.


    Communists still have a party over there and thus, get far more use out of communist founders and symbolism than VII Catholics get from altar rails. The rails do have an aesthetic quality beside their functionality, which is more than I can say for the hideous mugs of Marx, Lenin, Stalin or the various symbols left over from the Soviet regime.



    As a Catholic, I am a bit disturbed by the analogy made here.
    Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our protection against the malice and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we humbly pray; and do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits

    Offline Thurifer

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #33 on: January 24, 2015, 10:36:14 AM »
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  • Why does a building with a swastika have to go? I say leave them up and let those who are guilty explain them. Same goes for Lenin's Tomb. To destroy them all leads to a kind of whitewashing. I believe most Russians look at these monuments, buildings, and other markers as a kind of a joke and a reminder. This seems to be a complete nonstarter as an argument. The whitewashing as advocated by Croixalist, would tend to sweep things under the rug, now wouldn't they?

    Having said that, I don't like the analogy between Altar Rails or High Altars either. They could be used agains tomorrow. Literally. That comment being made could well indicate a loss of faith by he who utters it.

    Offline Meg

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #34 on: January 24, 2015, 12:03:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg


    I don't know anyone, other than tourists, who have gone to see Lenin's body.  I know 100s of  Muscovites and none of them have ever been there.  Neither have I.  I got married in Red Square.  Well technically in a Church nearby but afterwards we all went to Red Square to celebrate.


    Maybe you've explained this before, but what is your background, exactly? I don't want to get too personal, but an explanation might help to put your posts into context. I always thought that you're British. But maybe you're not. If you got married near Red Square, then you may have some sort of connection to Russia, and Orthodoxy. Perhaps you'd be willing to explain the connection.

    The one good thing, IMO, about the Orthodox is that at least they aren't Protestant. But...the Orthodox (or many of them) that I've debated with on the CAF forums have been quite anti-Rome, and difficult to reason with. Not all, but many.


    Offline Croixalist

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #35 on: January 24, 2015, 04:51:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: Thurifer
    Why does a building with a swastika have to go? I say leave them up and let those who are guilty explain them. Same goes for Lenin's Tomb. To destroy them all leads to a kind of whitewashing. I believe most Russians look at these monuments, buildings, and other markers as a kind of a joke and a reminder. This seems to be a complete nonstarter as an argument. The whitewashing as advocated by Croixalist, would tend to sweep things under the rug, now wouldn't they?

    Having said that, I don't like the analogy between Altar Rails or High Altars either. They could be used agains tomorrow. Literally. That comment being made could well indicate a loss of faith by he who utters it.


    There is no excuse to have anti-Catholic, antichrist symbolism in or on any building. Tear it down if you need to, this is the opposite of whitewashing. What you need to start doing is to resist the brainwashing. That body of Lenin ought to be burned and the ashes thrown in acid. Shame on Russia for allowing that infernal display!
    Fortuna finem habet.

    Offline ggreg

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #36 on: January 25, 2015, 05:22:00 AM »
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  • Quote from: Thurifer
    Why does a building with a swastika have to go? I say leave them up and let those who are guilty explain them. Same goes for Lenin's Tomb. To destroy them all leads to a kind of whitewashing. I believe most Russians look at these monuments, buildings, and other markers as a kind of a joke and a reminder. This seems to be a complete nonstarter as an argument. The whitewashing as advocated by Croixalist, would tend to sweep things under the rug, now wouldn't they?

    Having said that, I don't like the analogy between Altar Rails or High Altars either. They could be used agains tomorrow. Literally. That comment being made could well indicate a loss of faith by he who utters it.


    It's tomorrow, and they are not being used.  So you're wrong.  Literally.

    Offline ggreg

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #37 on: January 25, 2015, 05:24:03 AM »
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  • Quote from: Croixalist
    Quote from: Thurifer
    Why does a building with a swastika have to go? I say leave them up and let those who are guilty explain them. Same goes for Lenin's Tomb. To destroy them all leads to a kind of whitewashing. I believe most Russians look at these monuments, buildings, and other markers as a kind of a joke and a reminder. This seems to be a complete nonstarter as an argument. The whitewashing as advocated by Croixalist, would tend to sweep things under the rug, now wouldn't they?

    Having said that, I don't like the analogy between Altar Rails or High Altars either. They could be used agains tomorrow. Literally. That comment being made could well indicate a loss of faith by he who utters it.


    There is no excuse to have anti-Catholic, antichrist symbolism in or on any building. Tear it down if you need to, this is the opposite of whitewashing. What you need to start doing is to resist the brainwashing. That body of Lenin ought to be burned and the ashes thrown in acid. Shame on Russia for allowing that infernal display!


    You'd better tear down Wall Street then and a bunch of Central Washington DC because they have freemasonic symbols in the architecture on those buildings.


    Offline ggreg

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #38 on: January 25, 2015, 05:27:44 AM »
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  • Quote from: Meg
    Quote from: ggreg


    I don't know anyone, other than tourists, who have gone to see Lenin's body.  I know 100s of  Muscovites and none of them have ever been there.  Neither have I.  I got married in Red Square.  Well technically in a Church nearby but afterwards we all went to Red Square to celebrate.


    Maybe you've explained this before, but what is your background, exactly? I don't want to get too personal, but an explanation might help to put your posts into context. I always thought that you're British. But maybe you're not. If you got married near Red Square, then you may have some sort of connection to Russia, and Orthodoxy. Perhaps you'd be willing to explain the connection.

    The one good thing, IMO, about the Orthodox is that at least they aren't Protestant. But...the Orthodox (or many of them) that I've debated with on the CAF forums have been quite anti-Rome, and difficult to reason with. Not all, but many.


    I'm British.  Married to a Russian Catholic.

    Offline Croixalist

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #39 on: January 25, 2015, 08:00:09 AM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg
    You'd better tear down Wall Street then and a bunch of Central Washington DC because they have freemasonic symbols in the architecture on those buildings.


    I have exactly zero qualms tearing down all freemasonic symbolism wherever it is. I make no excuses for it. I'd go even further and redo the entire city layout to get rid of the owl, the compass and pentagram.

    BTW, some items "post-soviet" Moscow forgot about...

    Outside Luzhniki Stadium:


    Kaluzhskaya Square:


    Revolution Square:


    Novokoeznetskaya Metro Station:


    Muzeon Park of Arts:


    Muzeon Park of Arts:


    Muzeon Park of Arts:


    Gorky Park:


    Stalin's Tomb:


    At once a sign of life and a reminder of the reality of communist attachments:

    Quote
    Lenin statue blown up in central Russian city

    MOSCOW, November 15 (RIA Novosti) – A Lenin statue was blown up in the early hours of Saturday in the central Russian city of Ryazan, a police source has told RIA Novosti.

    No one was injured in the blast, which happened at around 3:00 a.m. (midnight GMT). Ryazan is some 200 kms (125 miles) from Moscow.

    The police source said that the explosive device used had contained “the equivalent of some 200 grams of TNT.”

    “As a result of the blast, the two-meter alabaster monument was completely destroyed. An investigation is being carried out,” said the source.

    Ryazan’s best known monument to the father of the Bolshevik Revolution is in the centre of the city. It is not known if police will take any special steps to protect it in the light of Saturday’s events.

    In mid-October, Russian police in the Volga city of Nizhny Novgorod detained a man as he tried to destroy another Lenin statue.

    “The man, who was slightly drunk, attempted to pull off the head of Lenin’s statue,” a police spokesman said. “He brought a ladder from a nearby construction site and tried to destroy the monument,” he said, adding that the attacker had only managed to tear off Lenin’s right arm.

    A large amount of Lenin statues were torn down in Russia following the collapse of the U.S.S.R., but many remain, with each large town or city usually boasting at least one.

    The embalmed body of the Russian communist leader has been on public display in a glass case in a mausoleum on Red Square since his death in 1924. His continuing presence in the heart of Moscow has been an ongoing source of controversy since the break up of the Soviet Union in 1991.
    Fortuna finem habet.

    Offline Thurifer

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #40 on: January 25, 2015, 10:20:45 AM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg
    Quote from: Thurifer
    Why does a building with a swastika have to go? I say leave them up and let those who are guilty explain them. Same goes for Lenin's Tomb. To destroy them all leads to a kind of whitewashing. I believe most Russians look at these monuments, buildings, and other markers as a kind of a joke and a reminder. This seems to be a complete nonstarter as an argument. The whitewashing as advocated by Croixalist, would tend to sweep things under the rug, now wouldn't they?

    Having said that, I don't like the analogy between Altar Rails or High Altars either. They could be used agains tomorrow. Literally. That comment being made could well indicate a loss of faith by he who utters it.


    It's tomorrow, and they are not being used.  So you're wrong.  Literally.


    Actually, Wiseguy, it's never tomorrow.


    Offline hollingsworth

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #41 on: January 25, 2015, 09:15:49 PM »
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  • croix:
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    Do not support Putin or Russia until a conversion to Catholicism takes place. It's like a comparative pragmatism has taken root over what was handed down by Our Lady.


    I'm not certain you would not have made similar demands upon King David.  Yet he was far from perfect,  and did not always behave in accordance with Mosaic Law under the Old Covenant.  He was, nevertheless, in the line of Jesus Christ, and it in one sense a type of Christ the King.

    Offline Croixalist

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #42 on: January 26, 2015, 10:54:07 AM »
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  • Quote from: hollingsworth
    croix:
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    Do not support Putin or Russia until a conversion to Catholicism takes place. It's like a comparative pragmatism has taken root over what was handed down by Our Lady.


    I'm not certain you would not have made similar demands upon King David.  Yet he was far from perfect,  and did not always behave in accordance with Mosaic Law under the Old Covenant.  He was, nevertheless, in the line of Jesus Christ, and it in one sense a type of Christ the King.


    If after all that I've pointed out about Putin and Russia, you still think he's comparable to King David, then I don't think there's anything I can say to dissuade you. I will say that King David publicly repented of his sins and if Putin can one day manage true conversion and repentance for his monstrous past, I might take it easier on him. Maybe.
    Fortuna finem habet.

    Offline ggreg

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #43 on: January 26, 2015, 01:48:12 PM »
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  • How "monsterous" was his past?

    Offline Croixalist

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    Did Putin ask Pope Francis to consecrate Russia?
    « Reply #44 on: January 26, 2015, 04:40:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg
    How "monsterous" was his past?

    Just a little assassination here and there (Litvinenko, Politkovskaya, Yushenkov, Shchekochikhin, Starovoitova, Girenko, Klebnikov, Kozlov, Markelov, Estemirova), the Pechatniki apartment bombing, the Moscow theater hostage gassing, the Beslan school hostage slaughter, the poisoning of Yushchenko, his pillaging of the Catholic communities in Crimea, his affair and divorce, and whatever else he happened to be part of during his time in that angelic institution, the KGB/FSB.

    But all those deaths were coincidentally convenient, and the ends always justified the means!
    Fortuna finem habet.

     

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