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Author Topic: Defending (certain aspects of) the Inquisitions?  (Read 1187 times)

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Offline Mercyandjustice

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Defending (certain aspects of) the Inquisitions?
« on: July 25, 2019, 11:24:15 PM »
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  • I know that the Inquisition (the Church setting up its own tribunal to deal with heresy) in itself is not a bad thing. There are, however, two particular points of the inquisitions which don't seem to be justifiable-- the torture and burning of heretics. These two things are quite abhorrent in my view and, unless someone can change my mind, I view them as disfiguring marks on the face of the Church. It's mainly the fact that torture was authorized and used by the Church's tribunals that bothers me. I understand that putting certain heretics to death may have been "necessary" for the good of society, since society then was founded on the faith and deviations were seen as dangerous. But even then, we shouldn't delight in their deaths. And did they have to be burnt? If heretics just had to die (and I'm not too convinced they had to), why not choose a less painful death? But anyway, torture just seems unnecessary and cruel. Yes, there were limitations to the torture that was actually allowed by the popes, but I don't think these limitations were enough...

    How do you view the Inquisitions? Good? Bad? Good and bad? I view them as good and bad. It is, after all, due to the inquisitions that many thousand of people repented of their heresy and were reconciled to the Church. And here are some quotes for your consideration:


    Quote
    Whether they be convicted of error, or freely confess their guilt, Catharists are not to be Put to death, at least not when they refrain from armed assaults upon the Church. For although the Apostle said, A man that is a heretic after the third admonition, avoid, he certainly did not say, Kill him. Throw them into prison, if you will, but do not put them to death.
    By persuasion, not by violence, are men to be won to the faith, (St Bernard)

    Religion being a matter of the will, it cannot be forced on anyone; in this matter it is better to employ words than blows [verbis melius quam verberibus res agenda est]. Of what use is cruelty? What has the rack to do with piety? Surely there is no connection between truth and violence, between justice and cruelty . . . . It is true that nothing is so important as religion, and one must defend it at any cost [summâ vi] . . . It is true that it must be protected, but by dying for it, not by killing others; by long-suffering, not by violence; by faith, not by crime. If you attempt to defend religion with bƖσσdshɛd and torture, what you do is not defense, but desecration and insult. For nothing is so intrinsically a matter of free will as religion. (Divine Institutes) [I only disagree with this when it comes to situations like Lepanto, when non believers are actively coming to you to destroy you and your land]

    We wish them corrected, not put to death; we desire the triumph of (ecclesiastical) discipline, not the death penalties that they deserve (St Augustine)

    Fight all error, but do it with good humor, patience, kindness, and love. Harshness will damage your own soul and spoil the best cause” - (St. John Cantius)

    Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you.. (Jesus)
    Finally, isn't killing and torturing heretics comparable to modern Islamic terrorism? How can we condemn them and justify ourselves?


    Offline A new name

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    Re: Defending (certain aspects of) the Inquisitions?
    « Reply #1 on: July 26, 2019, 12:05:36 AM »
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  • I don't have a personal opinion on them one way or the other, they were actions authorized by Kings and Queens who had the best interests and the unity of their kingdoms at stake. I have heard in interviews it put forward that burnings were carried out in the hope that the temporal punishment meted out would bring the heretic to final repentance and serve to save their souls. This sounds plausible.
    I think though that there were two common but sometimes conflicting interests at stake with this. That of the Church (souls) and that of the monarchs (subjects) and the ongoing security and stability of their kingdoms.
    What I have always wondered is was it the Church or the monarchs who were primarily responsible for the determination and execution of the temporal sentences that were carried out? Has the history of these times and events been manipulated in such a way as to shed as negative and condemning a light as possible on the Church deliberately? I find that idea plausible also.


    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Defending (certain aspects of) the Inquisitions?
    « Reply #2 on: July 26, 2019, 02:02:18 AM »
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  • EXTRA ECCLESIUM NULLA SALUS :cheers:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Defending (certain aspects of) the Inquisitions?
    « Reply #3 on: July 26, 2019, 04:12:53 AM »
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  • Vatican Archives Show a Just & Good Inquisition 
    by Marian Horvat, Ph.D.
    https://www.traditioninaction.org/History/A_028_Inquisition.htm



    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Defending (certain aspects of) the Inquisitions?
    « Reply #4 on: July 26, 2019, 05:35:11 AM »
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  • Douay-Rheims Bible
    But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea.(Matthew 18:6)

    Didn't God create Hell, a place where one burns for all eternity?

    Burning at the stake for unrepentant heretics 9 like Bruno) was done in public by the local authorities. Presumably so that all could see the fate of heretics. Better one person die than many end up in the eternal fires of hell on account of his spreading that heresy.


    Offline Mercyandjustice

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    Re: Defending (certain aspects of) the Inquisitions?
    « Reply #5 on: July 26, 2019, 06:21:34 AM »
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  • I don't have a personal opinion on them one way or the other, they were actions authorized by Kings and Queens who had the best interests and the unity of their kingdoms at stake. I have heard in interviews it put forward that burnings were carried out in the hope that the temporal punishment meted out would bring the heretic to final repentance and serve to save their souls. This sounds plausible.
    I think though that there were two common but sometimes conflicting interests at stake with this. That of the Church (souls) and that of the monarchs (subjects) and the ongoing security and stability of their kingdoms.
    What I have always wondered is was it the Church or the monarchs who were primarily responsible for the determination and execution of the temporal sentences that were carried out? Has the history of these times and events been manipulated in such a way as to shed as negative and condemning a light as possible on the Church deliberately? I find that idea plausible also.
    I've also thought that about burning at the stake, that it may help their soul. But I still can't view it as something good. The intentions may have been good, yes. But not the execution of those intentions.
    And here is en excerpt from the Catholic Encyclopedia article "Inquisition" that may answer who was mainly responsible for the executions:
    Quote
    Frederick II was of the same opinion; in his Constitution of 1224 he says that heretics convicted by an ecclesiastical court shall, on imperial authority, suffer death by fire (auctoritate nostra ignis iudicio concremandos), and similarly in 1233 "praesentis nostrae legis edicto damnatos mortem pati decernimus." In this way Gregory IX may be regarded as having had no share either directly or indirectly in the death of condemned heretics. Not so the succeeding popes. In the Bull "Ad exstirpanda" (1252) Innocent IV  says:
    Quote
    When those adjudged guilty of heresy have been given up to the civil power by the bishop or his representative, or the Inquisition, the podestà or chief magistrate of the city shall take them at once, and shall, within five days at the most, execute the laws made against them.
    Moreover, he directs that this Bull and the corresponding regulations of Frederick II be entered in every city among the municipal statutes under pain of excommunication, which was also visited on those who failed to execute both the papal and the imperial decrees. Nor could any doubt remain as to what civil regulations were meant, for the passages which ordered the burning of impenitent heretics were inserted in the papal decretals from the imperial constitutions "Commissis nobis" and "Inconsutibilem tunicam". The aforesaid Bull "Ad exstirpanda" remained thenceforth a fundamental docuмent of the Inquisition, renewed or reinforced by several Popes, Alexander IV (1254-61), Clement IV (1265-68), Nicholas IV (1288-02), Boniface VIII (1294-1303), and others. The civil authorities, therefore, were enjoined by the popes, under pain of excommunication to execute the legal sentences that condemned impenitent heretics to the stake. It is to be noted that excommunication itself was no trifle, for, if the person excommunicated did not free himself from excommunication within a year, he was held by the legislation of that period to be a heretic, and incurred all the penalties that affected heresy.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Defending (certain aspects of) the Inquisitions?
    « Reply #6 on: July 26, 2019, 06:24:16 AM »
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  • There are, however, two particular points of the inquisitions which don't seem to be justifiable-- the torture and burning of heretics.


    Here is one of the more prominent condemned propositions of Martin Luther:

    Quote from: Pope Leo X - 1520, Exsurge Domine, Condemning the Errors of Martin Luther
    33. That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.

    Exsurge Domine on papalencyclicals.net


    St. Thomas Aquinas argues in defense of the capital punishment for heretics, roughly along the line: Folks who teach heresies lead souls to hell. This is worse than mass murder and thus should have a more severe punishment.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Mercyandjustice

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    Re: Defending (certain aspects of) the Inquisitions?
    « Reply #7 on: July 26, 2019, 06:27:18 AM »
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  • Here is another quote I forgot to include in the OP:

    Quote
     Pope St. Nicholas I, Response Ad Consulta Vestra, November 13, 866. This is a long docuмent setting out norms for civil and ecclesiastical matters, addressed to a delegation from the Bulgarian prince Boris, who with most of his people has recently converted to the faith, and is now seeking papal guidance on how a Christian society ought to be run. Nicholas here not only echoes Augustine’s objections to judicial torture, but (unlike the said Doctor) condemns the practice unequivocally. Section 86 reads as follows:
    If a [putative] thief or bandit is apprehended and denies the charges against him, you tell me your custom is for a judge to beat him with blows to the head and tear the sides of his body with other sharp iron goads until he confesses the truth. Such a procedure is totally unacceptable under both divine and human law (quam rem nec divina lex nec humana prorsus admittit), since It a confession should be spontaneous, not forced. It should be proffered voluntarily, not violently extorted. After all, if it should happen that even after inflicting all these torments, you still fail to wrest from the sufferer any self-incrimination regarding the crime of which he is accused, will you not then at least blush for shame and acknowledge how impious is your judicial procedure? Likewise, suppose an accused man is unable to endure such torments and so confesses to a crime he never committed. Upon whom, pray tell, will now devolve the full brunt of responsibility for such an enormity, if not upon him who coerced the accused into confessing such lies about himself? (However, let us not even call that a ‘confession’; rather, such a one utters with his mouth what is not in his heart!) . . . [The Pope then goes on to describe and recommend an alternative judicial procedure – presumably the one followed by that time in Rome.] Now, in the case of a free man under suspicion of a crime: if he has not already been found guilty of some previous offence, or has not been sentenced to be punished on the testimony of three witnesses, or if it is [otherwise] not possible to convict him, then the matter is finally resolved by placing before the accused the holy Gospel: once he swears upon it that he is innocent of the said crime, he is set free. This accords with what the Apostle to the gentiles had frequently witnessed: "an oath serves as a guarantee and puts an end to all argument" (Heb 6: 16).30
     
    Pope St Nicholas condemns torture. If only future popes did too!


    Offline Mercyandjustice

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    Re: Defending (certain aspects of) the Inquisitions?
    « Reply #8 on: July 26, 2019, 06:36:18 AM »
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  • Here is one of the more prominent condemned propositions of Martin Luther:

    Exsurge Domine on papalencyclicals.net


    St. Thomas Aquinas argues in defense of the capital punishment for heretics, roughly along the line: Folks who teach heresies lead souls to hell. This is worse than mass murder and thus should have a more severe punishment.
    I'm not so much against putting impenitent heretics to death, provided makes sense and unnecessary cruelty isn't used. I know that burning might have the effect of causing the heretic to repent. But that "might" is not enough, in my view, to burn heretics.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Defending (certain aspects of) the Inquisitions?
    « Reply #9 on: July 26, 2019, 07:13:35 AM »
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  • I'm not so much against putting impenitent heretics to death, provided makes sense and unnecessary cruelty isn't used. I know that burning might have the effect of causing the heretic to repent. But that "might" is not enough, in my view, to burn heretics.
    So, mercyandjustice, do you think it is better to suffer the pain of burning until death, in the case of a repentant heretic but save his soul?

    Or would you prefer that he burns for eternity, having died a tormented and terrifying death in his bed?

    In my town there was an alleged murder ѕυιcιdє, which was in fact a double murder by a third party. It was all very gruesome. A workmate commented, when we were talking about the (at the time) mystery, "Wouldn't you think she could have found a nice way to kill her?" Your comment brings this imaginative person to my mind.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Defending (certain aspects of) the Inquisitions?
    « Reply #10 on: July 26, 2019, 07:25:58 AM »
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  • So, mercyandjustice, do you think it is better to suffer the pain of burning until death, in the case of a repentant heretic but save his soul?

    Or would you prefer that he burns for eternity, having died a tormented and terrifying death in his bed?

    In my town there was an alleged murder ѕυιcιdє, which was in fact a double murder by a third party. It was all very gruesome. A workmate commented, when we were talking about the (at the time) mystery, "Wouldn't you think she could have found a nice way to kill her?" Your comment brings this imaginative person to my mind.
    Why are you assuming it was common for heretics to repent while burning? How do you know it ever happened at all?

    I agree with OP on this that a death sentence was prudent, but torturing for confessions and the needlessly cruel way of execution don't seem right to me.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Defending (certain aspects of) the Inquisitions?
    « Reply #11 on: July 26, 2019, 07:39:57 AM »
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  • Here is another quote I forgot to include in the OP:

     
    Pope St Nicholas condemns torture. If only future popes did too!
    Except, unless I missed it, he is not discussing heretics.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Defending (certain aspects of) the Inquisitions?
    « Reply #12 on: July 26, 2019, 07:50:21 AM »
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  • Except, unless I missed it, he is not discussing heretics.
    So? He's still saying that authorities shouldn't torture to get confessions. That's still applicable to those accused of heresy.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Defending (certain aspects of) the Inquisitions?
    « Reply #13 on: July 26, 2019, 07:55:31 AM »
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  • So? He's still saying that authorities shouldn't torture to get confessions. That's still applicable to those accused of heresy.
    Confessions of crimes are not the same as confessions of heresy. My issue is that one can not use this docuмent in the way it is being used by the OP.  

    We also have the condemnation of Luther posted by Struthio (that burning of heretics is against the will of the Spirit).  That seems pretty clear whether we agree with it or not.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Defending (certain aspects of) the Inquisitions?
    « Reply #14 on: July 26, 2019, 08:05:43 AM »
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  • So, mercyandjustice, do you think it is better to suffer the pain of burning until death, in the case of a repentant heretic but save his soul?

    Or would you prefer that he burns for eternity, having died a tormented and terrifying death in his bed?

    In my town there was an alleged murder ѕυιcιdє, which was in fact a double murder by a third party. It was all very gruesome. A workmate commented, when we were talking about the (at the time) mystery, "Wouldn't you think she could have found a nice way to kill her?" Your comment brings this imaginative person to my mind.
    Cramner recanted his error, but when he found out that he was going to be burned anyway, he embraced his heresy once again.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?