By the way, is there anyone here who believes in evolution, or even so-called 'old earth creation'?

The "trick" to Dawkins and the New Atheists philosophy is this:

Atheism only makes sense if you presume the existence of God.

That's right!  Every time Dawkins is critical of believers and our supposed "lack of intelligence," he is borrowing from our philosophy!  He is assuming that minds exist!!  But, if minds truly exist (something for you married couples to think about the next time you are with your beloved one), then how can minds be nothing more than the arrangement of molecules?  For molecules, like billiard balls, are deterministic, just simply interacting with other according to the Laws of Conservation of Energy, Momentum, and Angular Momentum, nothing more?  (Play a game of pool to see this in action!)  No, minds if they exist, must be spirits, they must be souls, immaterial and non-corporeal.

In short, your existence proves the existence of God.  QED.

 :applause:

Quote from: Jehanne

I accept the great age of the Universe, around 13.7 billion years as well as the age of the Earth, around 4.6 billion years.

I just thought you might like to know that this is entirely against Scripture.

I don't think so.  The Fourth Lateran Council stated the following,

"We firmly believe and openly confess that there is only one true God, eternal and immense, omnipotent, unchangeable, incomprehensible, and ineffable, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; three Persons indeed but one essense, substance, or nature absolutely simple; the Father (proceeding) from no one, but the Son from the Father only, and the Holy Ghost equally from both, always without beginning and end. The Father begetting, the Son begotten, and the Holy Ghost proceeding; consubstantial and coequal, co-omnipotent and coeternal, the one principle of the universe, Creator of all things invisible and visible, spiritual and corporeal, who from the beginning of time and by His omnipotent power made from nothing creatures both spiritual and corporeal, angelic, namely, and mundane, and then human, as it were, common, composed of spirit and body. The devil and the other demons were indeed created by God good by nature but they became bad through themselves; man, however, sinned at the suggestion of the devil. This Holy Trinity in its common essense undivided and in personal properties divided, through Moses, the holy prophets, and other servants gave to the human race at the most opportune intervals of time the doctrine of salvation.

And finally, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God made flesh by the entire Trinity, conceived with the co-operation of the Holy Ghost of Mary ever Virgin, made true man, composed of a rational soul and human flesh, one Person in two natures, pointed out more clearly the way of life. Who according to His divinity is immortal and impassable, according to His humanity was made passable and mortal, suffered on the cross for the salvation of the human race, and being dead descended into hell, rose from the dead, and ascended into heaven. But He descended in soul, arose in flesh, and ascended equally in both; He will come at the end of the world to judge the living and the dead and will render to the reprobate and to the elect according to their works. Who all shall rise with their own bodies which they now have that they may receive according to their merits, whether good or bad, the latter eternal punishment with the devil, the former eternal glory with Christ.

There is one Universal Church of the faithful, outside of which there is absolutely no salvation. In which there is the same priest and sacrifice, Jesus Christ, whose body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar under the forms of bread and wine; the bread being changed (transsubstantiatio) by divine power into the body, and the wine into the blood, so that to realize the mystery of unity we may receive of Him what He has received of us. And this sacrament no one can effect except the priest who has been duly ordained in accordance with the keys of the Church, which Jesus Christ Himself gave to the Apostles and their successors.

But the sacrament of baptism, which by the invocation of each Person of the Trinity, namely of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, is effected in water, duly conferred on children and adults in the form prescribed by the Church by anyone whatsoever, leads to salvation. And should anyone after the reception of baptism have fallen into sin, by true repentance he can always be restored. Not only virgins and those practicing chastity, but also those united in marriage, through the right faith and through works pleasing to God, can merit eternal salvation."

Quote from: Jesus Christ in St. Mark 10:6:

But from the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female.

You might want to research the 4.6 billion figure.  Did you realize that this figure has been inflating and inflating over the last century or so?

There is no such thing as billions of years.

See this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SN_1987A

According to Alex Filippenko, a Professor of Astronomy at the Universe of California at Berkeley, the astronomer in question was outside smoking a cigarette at the time of the discovery.  According to Walter Levin, a Professor of Physics at MIT, he was out "taking a leak."  Perhaps he was doing both.

In any case, Faith & Science are not in conflict on this one.

The quote function is not working, so I will try to do an outline of the points that I want to make:

1)  The Church has never required her theologians to interpret Genesis verbatim.  Lots of Internet links exist on this from the writings of Augustine to Aquinas, so no need to list them here.  The 4th Lateran Council made two declarations about the One and Triune God's creation of the Universe -- The Universe is finite and that God created it out of nothing.  Both of these statements are completely compatible with modern scientific theory, but again, who cares?

2)  Darwinian evolution is a scientific theory about the origins of our physical bodies.  It explains why a man and a woman, after sex, will sometimes have the joy of a newborn child in 9 or so months later, and why sex between two men or two women will never result in a similar outcome!  Biology offers explanations about our physical bodies, nothing more.  It cannot explain the existence of the soul, how it came about, or why it will survive the death of the body.  It cannot explain Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory, or, "Why is there something rather than nothing?!"

3)  Dawkins' big argument is The Problem of Evil.  This has been addressed by many theologians.  If anything, Adam's sin was so great that the effects traveled forward and backward in time.  We live in a fallen World.

4)  We are animals, at least in part.  More importantly, however, we are spirits.  It is the union of the spiritual, the soul, with the physical, the animal, which makes a human being.  Saint Thomas addressed this issue long ago and long before Darwin.

5)  The Universe is incredibly, incredibly huge, and both it and the Earth are very old, absolutely no doubt about that.  But again, so what?  God is infinitely older and infinitely bigger.  He could make the Universe really, really big, and why not?  The Universe could not be as big as God, because then it would be God.

6)  We exist because God exists.  We have minds, and to have a mind, one needs a spirit, and to have a spirit, one needs a Creator God.  God is a spirit and so are we.  God is eternal, uncaused.  We are caused and finite, even though we will live, with God (I hope), forever and ever.

To give an age to God would seem to indicate that God was subject to time, placing something above God. I think that's why those such as Thomas Aquinas believe that God is outside of time; that he created time. He doesn't have an age, he is aware of all things as though it were all condensed into a single fixed moment. I think it is most reasonable to believe that the earth is a few thousand years old, especially if the Earth was created for Man. It would not make sense for God to have the Earth exist for billions of years before Man even came to be. In a way...it almost seems to indicate a lack of faith in God; that he does not perform miracles; for bringing Man into being from the dirt of the Earth was among the greatest of miracles.

I found that interview funny. John Mackay with his smirk and his pressure, and Dawkins with his negative, "You dimwit" face. MacKay kept him on his toes, but I think he could have used stronger arguments. He seemed more aimed at proving to Dawkins that Atheism and Evolution is a religion, rather than trying to disprove it.

That the Earth and Universe are billions of years old can be known to the same degree that the Earth is round and goes around the Sun.  Don't give Dawkins & Friends an easy target, as Young Earth Creationism has been utterly disproved.  Of course, God is outside of time, and since He has always existed, in that respect, he can be said to be "infinitely old."  It doesn't matter, does it?

God is infinitely powerful, omnipotent and omniscient.  He could have created the Universe any way that he wanted.  For an infinite, timeless, and uncaused entity, a billion years is nothing, a little twinkle in all of Eternity.  The Universe's incredible size (the vast, vast amount of which is unobservable) and age are testament to the Glory and Power of the One and Triune God.

If anything, the Universe's age and, especially, size, disprove naturalism.  If naturalistic, materialistic evolution were true, the Galaxy and Universe would be full of intelligent life that had evolved on at least one other of the 1 trillion or so planets in this galaxy alone.  Humans are completely and utterly alone, because we are the unique creation of God.

That was created on the fourth day according to scripture.

Well, again, none of the Fathers of the Church demanded a literal interpretation to Genesis, unlike "women's clothing."  Saint Thomas was open to figurative interpretations.