Author Topic: Date of Founding of the Church  (Read 1300 times)

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Offline lefebvre_fan

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Date of Founding of the Church
« on: August 19, 2011, 11:16:12 AM »
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  • This is perhaps a silly question, but what would you say is the exact date of the founding of the Catholic Church, if such a date can be given? Would it be the birth of Christ in 1 A.D. (leaving aside the question of the exact date of Christ's birth), the beginning of Christ's public ministry in 30 A.D., the descent of the Holy Ghost upon the Apostles and those with them at Pentecost in 33 A.D., or some other date?
    "The Catholic Church is the only thing which saves a man from the degrading slavery of being a child of his age."--G. K. Chesterton

    Offline Sigismund

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    Date of Founding of the Church
    « Reply #1 on: August 19, 2011, 08:35:29 PM »
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  • I don't think we know the exact date.  It would seem to me that it would either be at the Last Supper or the first Pentecost.  I have seen both posited.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    « Reply #2 on: August 19, 2011, 09:29:39 PM »
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  • Pentecost Sunday is regarded as the day the Church officially began, so it is correct to say A.D. 33.

    Offline Daegus

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    « Reply #3 on: August 19, 2011, 10:34:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    Pentecost Sunday is regarded as the day the Church officially began, so it is correct to say A.D. 33.


    The Church has always taught that she began during the moment of the Pentecost.
    For those who I have unjustly offended, please forgive me. Please disregard my posts where I lacked charity and you will see that I am actually a very nice person. Disregard my opinions on "NFP", "Baptism of Desire/Blood" and the changes made to the sacra

    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #4 on: August 20, 2011, 08:27:33 AM »
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  • Okay.  I would not presume to question that.  I am not sure we can state with certainty that the year was 33, however.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline TKGS

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    « Reply #5 on: August 20, 2011, 11:31:45 AM »
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  • General Hugues de Nanteuil makes a compelling case in his book, The Dates of the Birth and Death of Jesus Christ that the traditional dates used by the Church, i.e., that Jesus was actually born on December 25th 1 B.C. and that he was circumcised on January 1, A.D. 1 (eight days after his birth) are the actual dates of the historical events.

    The book can be obtained from Tradibooks, available online at:  http://stores.lulu.com/tradibooks

    Thus, the actual birthday of the Church is indeed on Pentecost Sunday in the year A.D. 33.  Those who claim otherwise do not have evidence that another date is correct; they merely question the evidence (needlessly, in my opinion) that the dates always accepted by the Church are incorrect.

    Offline trad123

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    « Reply #6 on: August 20, 2011, 11:48:26 AM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    that Jesus was actually born on December 25th 1 B.C. and that he was circumcised on January 1, A.D. 1


    Perhaps then we should start using B.C.E.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #7 on: August 20, 2011, 04:30:48 PM »
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  • Has the Church ever, in any authoritative ay, even expressed an opinion about this?  Whatever the case, it seems to me that the exact dates are hardly that important, whatever they are.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #8 on: August 20, 2011, 04:32:08 PM »
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  • Also, I have read that the census that the gospels seem to be talking about relating to Our Lord's birth would have taken place in 4 BC.  Doe it really matter to anyone but historians?
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline lefebvre_fan

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    « Reply #9 on: August 20, 2011, 08:40:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sigismund
    Has the Church ever, in any authoritative way, even expressed an opinion about this?  Whatever the case, it seems to me that the exact dates are hardly that important, whatever they are.


    Hmm, I suppose you're right, it's probably not really all that important. I was just curious from the perspective of a historian what most Catholics would deem the "beginning" of the Church age.

    Not that it bears much authority, but here's what Wikipedia has to say:

    Quote from: Wikipedia
    Pentecost is historically and symbolically related to the Jewish harvest festival of Shavuot, which commemorates God giving the Ten Commandments at Mount Sinai fifty days after the Exodus. Among Christians, Pentecost commemorates the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Twelve apostles and other followers of Jesus as described in the Acts of the Apostles 2:1-31.[3] For this reason, Pentecost is sometimes described as the "Birthday of the Church."


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecost

    Interestingly, according to the same article, the eastern "Orthodox" "do not consider Pentecost to be the "birthday" of the Church; they see the Church as having existed before the creation of the world." Not really sure how they figure that one.  :confused1:
    "The Catholic Church is the only thing which saves a man from the degrading slavery of being a child of his age."--G. K. Chesterton

    Offline TKGS

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    « Reply #10 on: August 20, 2011, 09:54:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sigismund
    Has the Church ever, in any authoritative ay, even expressed an opinion about this?  Whatever the case, it seems to me that the exact dates are hardly that important, whatever they are.


    To my knowledge, the Church has never made a solemn declaration on the precise date of the birth of Jesus.  

    But I would suggest that the immemorial use of the calendar and the constant use of the dating system is pretty darn authoritative.  

    Quote
    Also, I have read that the census that the gospels seem to be talking about relating to Our Lord's birth would have taken place in 4 BC. Doe it really matter to anyone but historians?


    Yes.  This is a common attack on the Church.  And it is an attack to demonstrate that the Church is wrong about a pretty fundamental issue--the birth of God on earth.  After all, if the Catholic Church is truly the Church founded by Jesus Christ Himself, surely the Catholic Church would know when her Founder was born.  Other religious denominations know when their respective founders were born.  

    Get and read the book I reference above for an explanation as to why the objections that place the census, and therefore the Birth of Christ, somewhere between 7 to 4 B.C. are erroneous (and often deliberately so).


    Offline lefebvre_fan

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    « Reply #11 on: August 21, 2011, 08:19:28 AM »
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  • Stolen from another forum:

    Quote
    Here is the latest title from Tradibooks

    The Dates of the Birth and Death of Jesus Christ

    by General Hugues de Nanteuil


    This book can be previewed or purchased on-line at http://www.lulu.com/tradibooks which gives the full list of our seven currently published titles, or at http://www.lulu.com/content/2330912 which is the specific link for General de Nanteuil's book.

    Here is a brief summary.

    The western world continues to date events from the birth of Christ. Our calendar is thus one of the last relics of Christian civilisation. It provides a constant reminder to an unbelieving world of the pivotal event of human history: the Incarnation of God the Son some two thousand years ago. But is it accurate? Was 1 A.D. truly the first “year of the Lord”? Was Christ in fact crucified under Pontius Pilate in 33 A.D. as Christian tradition tells us? Is there any way of knowing for sure?
    Since the Renaissance most scholars answer, No. Their evidence is that Flavius Josephus, the almost contemporary Jewish historian, places the death of Herod in 4 B.C., and Herod must have been still alive when Christ was born to order the slaughter of the Innocents.
    In this book, General Hugues de Nanteuil shows that it was Josephus, not the Church, who got his sums wrong. The author invokes the unanimous witness of the early Fathers, the Roman archives of the census of Augustus and Pilate’s report of the Crucifixion, the pagan testimonies to the eclipse that accompanied Christ’s death, the astonishing chronological accuracy of Dionysius the Little’s lunar calculations, the concurrence of religious feasts with identifiable astronomical phenomena, the unreliability and self-contradictions of Josephus. While vindicating the Christian calendar he also provides a mass of fascinating testimony to the historical truth of the Christian faith.

    In addition to General de Nanteuil's scholarship, which we have translated with the authorisation of the French publishers Messrs Téqui, the book also includes a new historical appendix on "Jesus Christ in the Roman Records". The Roman records in question are the archives of the census of the emperor Augustus (the census which brought the Holy Family to Bethlehem) and the report of Pontius Pilate to the Emperor Tiberius Cæsar on the crucifixion.


    Source: http://www.sedevacantist.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=748&start=0

    Sounds interesting! I think I'll have to pick it up sometime. Thanks TKGS!
    "The Catholic Church is the only thing which saves a man from the degrading slavery of being a child of his age."--G. K. Chesterton

    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #12 on: August 21, 2011, 10:13:42 PM »
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  • TKGS,

    I will track down the book and read it.  Thanks.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


     

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