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Author Topic: Counterarguments Against Marian Devotion  (Read 1206 times)

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Offline ca246

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Counterarguments Against Marian Devotion
« on: July 05, 2018, 04:55:26 PM »
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  • There are some statements made by saints on the importance of devotion to the Virgin Mary which seem to contradict the words of Jesus in John 4:6, as He says "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me." St. Timothy also teaches that Jesus Christ is the "one mediator of God and men," which can be understood in the sense of His human and divine natures or as the New Testament equivalent of Moses being the mediator in the Old Testament, but how is it that some saints make such statements as below in the light of divine revelation?

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    "Be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God hath raised from the dead, even by him this man standeth here before you whole. This is the stone which was rejected by you the builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved."
    -Acts 4:10-12
    Here are examples of such statements:

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    "He who is devout to the Virgin Mother will certainly never be lost."
    -St. Ignatius of Antioch
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    "It is impossible to be saved without the help of the Most Blessed Virgin, because those who are not saved by the justice of God are saved by the intercession of Mary."
    -St. John Chrysostom
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    "Devotion to you, O Blessed Virgin, is a means of salvation which God gives to those whom he wishes to save."
    -St. John Damascene
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    "It is impossible to save one's soul without devotion to Mary and without her protection."
    -St. Anselm of Canterbury
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    "The servants of Mary are as sure of getting to Paradise as though they were already there. Who are they who are saved and who reign in Heaven? Surely those for whom the Queen of Mercy intercedes ... The clients of Mary will necessarily be saved."
    -St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori
    This is an interesting papal quote yet it does not explain the apparent contradiction:

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    "Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother."
    -Encyclical Octobri Mense of Leo XIII, 22 September 1891
    Furthermore, St. Luke writes:

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    "And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman from the crowd, lifting up her voice, said to him: Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it."
    -Luke 11:27-28
    Can someone explain how the admonitions of Jesus do not contradict the saints' emphasis on Marian devotion?


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Counterarguments Against Marian Devotion
    « Reply #1 on: July 05, 2018, 05:26:15 PM »
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  • There is no contradiction.  Our Lady's words at the wedding at Cana are the words she  says to anyone who comes to her.  She says, "Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye."
    We are never put in a position to choose between Our Lady and Our Lord.  To follow her is to follow Him.  To follow Him is to accept that He shares His mother with us.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Counterarguments Against Marian Devotion
    « Reply #2 on: July 05, 2018, 07:55:36 PM »
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  • Between God, the Father, and man there is one mediator, Jesus.

    Between Jesus and man there are other mediators, principally His Mother, as He is King, she is Queen of Heaven.  


    De Liguori, Saint Alphonsus. The Glories of Mary (pp. 12-13). Catholic Way Publishing. Kindle Edition.

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    The Holy Church justly honors the great Virgin Mary, and would have her honored by all men with the glorious title of queen, because she has been elevated to the dignity of mother of the King of kings. If the Son is king, says St. Athanasius, his mother must necessarily be considered and entitled queen. From the moment that Mary consented, adds St. Bernardine of Sienna, to become the mother of the Eternal Word, she merited the title of queen of the world and all creatures. If the flesh of Mary, says St. Arnold, abbot, was the flesh of Jesus, how can the mother be separated from the Son in his kingdom? Hence it follows that the regal glory must not only be considered as common to the mother and the Son, but even the same. If Jesus is the king of the whole world, Mary is also queen of the whole world: therefore, says St. Bernardine of Sienna, all creatures who serve God ought also to serve Mary; for all angels and men, and all things that are in heaven and on earth being subject to the dominion of God, are also subject to the dominion of the glorious Virgin. Hence Guerric, abbot, thus addresses the divine mother: Continue, Mary, continue in security to reign; dispose, according to thy will, of every thing belonging to thy Son, for thou, being mother and spouse of the King of the world, the kingdom and power over all creatures is due to thee as queen.


    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Counterarguments Against Marian Devotion
    « Reply #3 on: July 05, 2018, 07:57:54 PM »
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  • There's only one Mediator between God and men overall because there's only ONE who ever was both God and man.  That is the sense of the Holy Scripture.  But saints, and Our Lady in particular, can mediate between us and the God-man.  There's no contradiction.  Be careful of reading Scripture out of context as the Protestants do, but always read with the mind of the Church and the mind of the Fathers.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Counterarguments Against Marian Devotion
    « Reply #4 on: July 05, 2018, 09:42:14 PM »
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  • Quote
    "And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman from the crowd, lifting up her voice, said to him: Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it."
    -Luke 11:27-28


    Venerable Mary of Agreda. The Mystical City of God: Complete Edition: The Divine History and Life of the Virgin Mother of God (Kindle Locations 20106-20121). Catholic Way Publishing. Kindle Edition.

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    347. The miracles and doings of Christ our Lord and Savior were so new and unheard of in the world that great admiration and honor could not but have been the result for his most holy Mother; for She was not only known to the Apostles and disciples, who acknowledged Her as the true Mother of the Redeemer, but by the new faithful, who all came to acknowledge Her as the true Mother of the Messias and many times congratulated Her on account of the wonders wrought by her Son. All this, however, was for Her a new occasion of humility; for She always humbled Herself to the dust and debased Herself in her own mind beyond all conception of created mind. Yet with all her humility She did not show Herself slow and ungrateful in the acknowledgment of all the favors lavished upon Her; for in humiliating Herself at sight of all the great works of Christ, She rendered worthy thanks to the eternal Father for each one of them and thus filled out the great void of ingratitude of the human race. And by means of the secret communication of her purest soul with that of the Savior, She sought to divert toward God, her Son, the honor attributed to Her by his hearers. This happened on some occasions which even the Evangelists mention. For instance, when the Jєωs attributed the healing of the deaf-mute to the devil, the Lord incited a woman to exclaim: “Blessed is the womb that bore Thee, and the paps that gave Thee suck!’ the humble and attentive Mother, hearing these words of praise, begged her divine Son to divert this praise from Her, and the Lord acceded to her request in such a way, that He turned these words into a still greater, yet, at that time a hidden, praise. For the Lord answered: “Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it” (Luke 11, 27). By these words He neutralized the praise given to Her as Mother, but enhanced it in application to Her as a saint; directing the attention of his hearers to the essential of all virtue, in which his Mother was distinguished above all others and most wonderful, though at the same time none of his hearers adverted to this hidden signification.



    de Montfort, St. Louis-Marie. True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin (Kindle Locations 403-405). ESaintLibrary.com. Kindle Edition.


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    39. Secondly, we must conclude that, being necessary to God by a necessity which is called "hypothetical", (that is, because God so willed it), the Blessed Virgin is all the more necessary for men to attain their final end.



    (Kindle Locations 2187-2194)


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    245. a) Since we live in an age of pride when a great number of haughty scholars, with proud and critical minds, find fault even with long-established and sound devotions, it is better to speak of "slavery of Jesus in Mary" and to call oneself "slave of Jesus" rather than "slave of Mary". We then avoid giving any pretext for criticism. In this way, we name this devotion after its ultimate end which is Jesus, rather than after the way and the means to arrive there, which is Mary. However, we can very well use either term without any scruple, as I myself do. If a man goes from Orléans to Tours, by way of Amboise, he can quite truthfully say that he is going to Amboise and equally truthfully say that he is going to Tours. The only difference is that Amboise is simply a place on the direct road to Tours, and Tours alone is his final destination.


    Muller, Michael. The Devotion of the Holy Rosary and the Five Scapulars (Kindle Locations 1960-1975). Unknown. Kindle Edition.


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    At our birth to this natural life, God gave each of us a father and a mother to be our guide and support, our refuge and consolation; and when, in the holy Sacraments of Baptism, we were brought again to the true life of grace, God gave us also a father and a mother. He taught us to call Him “Our Father who art in heaven.” He gave us His own Blessed Virgin Mother to be our true and loving Mother. That Mary is our Mother we were told by Jesus himself when hanging on the Cross: “Behold thy Mother” (Jn. 19:27).

    By His all−powerful word, God created the heavens and the earth; by His word He changed water into wine at the wedding feast; by His word He gave life to the dead; by His word He changed bread and wine into His Body and Blood; and by the same word He made His own beloved Mother to be truly and really our Mother also. He kept this gift to the last, because it is His desire that we should ever remember it; because it is so precious in His sight, so dear to His heart, so necessary for all those who will believe in Him; and because it is to be the means of preserving all the other divine gifts or of recovering them when lost. Mary, then, is our Mother, as Jesus willed and declared, and Mary, our Mother, is an all−powerful Mother. God alone is all powerful by nature but Mary is all powerful by her prayers. What is more natural than this?

    Mary is made Mater Dei, the Mother of God. Behold two words, the full meaning of which can never be comprehended either by men or angels. To be Mother of God is, as it were, an infinite dignity; for the dignity of that Mother is derived from the dignity of her Son. As there can be no son of greater excellence than the Son of God, so there can be no mother greater than the Mother of God.


    Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Counterarguments Against Marian Devotion
    « Reply #5 on: July 05, 2018, 11:08:06 PM »
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  • I dare say it is a dogma, of the ordinary and universal magisterium, that by Baptism all Catholics have the Blessed Virgin Mary for their mother, according to grace.

    If one does not honor the Mother of God, likewise our mother, one does not fulfill the fourth commandment.

    Matthew 19:17 But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


    de Montfort, St. Louis-Marie. True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin (Kindle Locations 812-815). ESaintLibrary.com. Kindle Edition.



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    85.

    (. . .)

    Let us not be afraid to say with St. Bernard that we need a mediator with the Mediator himself and the divinely-honoured Mary is the one most able to fulfill this office of love. Through her, Jesus came to us; through her we should go to him. If we are afraid of going directly to Jesus, who is God, because of his infinite greatness, or our lowliness, or our sins, let us implore without fear the help and intercession of Mary, our Mother.


    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline poche

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    Re: Counterarguments Against Marian Devotion
    « Reply #6 on: July 06, 2018, 02:06:51 AM »
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  • "Behold, all generations will call me blessed." - Mary