Author Topic: Confused by Open Letter to Confused Catholics. (Read 845 times)

Oremus · « **on:** October 17, 2011, 12:23:15 PM »

As most of you know, I am still trying to learn about tradition.

I've been reading Open Letter to Confused Catholics and I've loved it so far, but the section on Ecuмenism is confusing.

Toward the end of the chapter, Archbishop Lefebvre says:

"God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists, and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way, they become part of the Church."

Isn't this basically what Catholic modernists say? Isn't their argument that everyone can get to heaven, regardless of if they belong to the Church? And how can someone desire something without knowing it? Don't Buddhists believe in reincarnation, karma, and all that crap?

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Raoul76 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 17, 2011, 12:57:51 PM »

That's just the teaching about invincible ignorance. Read Father Fenton's book The Catholic Church and Salvation, if you spend a couple hours with it, it all becomes pretty clear. It's somewhat flawed, that book, but I can't think of one that takes as much time to carefully explain how someone who isn't a visible Catholic can still be a Catholic.

In a nutshell, someone who is in invincible ignorance, and whose heart is open to the truth, will have baptism of desire which makes him a member of the Church by desire...

curiouscatholic23 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 17, 2011, 01:02:24 PM »

Quote from: Raoul76

That's just the teaching about invincible ignorance. Read Father Fenton's book The Catholic Church and Salvation, if you spend a couple hours with it, it all becomes pretty clear. It's somewhat flawed, that book, but I can't think of one that takes as much time to carefully explain how someone who isn't a visible Catholic can still be a Catholic.

In a nutshell, someone who is in invincible ignorance, and whose heart is open to the truth, will have baptism of desire which makes him a member of the Church by desire...

What church fathers have promoted this idea of "invincible ignorance?" Sounds like heresey to me. What is the point of the "great commission" if pagans are saved anyway?

Stephen Francis · « **Reply #3 on:** October 17, 2011, 03:03:36 PM »

Face it, friends; we are NEVER going to encounter someone who is invincibly ignorant of the truths of the Catholic Faith. That doctrine applies to people who live in jungles and places where missionaries have never been. It is a doctrine that was formulated at a time when inter-STATE travel would still have been a huge undertaking, let alone interNATIONAL travel, especially to totally undeveloped places.

Seriously, just never mind already about BOD and BOB. These are doctrines that deal with very, very specific types of cases that most of us are never going to encounter.

I've even had chat conversations with people who live in HUTS. Made of GRASS. Yet, they had a battery-powered laptop, an email account, a facebook account, etc. These people live in places where they don't even have television or radio stations and their livestock share their drinking water, and yet they have the knowledge of and access to the Internet, which presupposes an access to the teachings of the Church. Certainly, if one can access the teachings of the most bizarre cult groups on the net, they can most easily access the teachings of the Magisterium.

I believe people are being confused, tripped up and hurt in their faith as Catholics because too many of us traditional Catholics are sitting around bickering about 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin', as the old saying goes.

Really... let's start turning this forum into what it is supposed to be... a place to encourage each other in our pursuit of SANCTITY, not 'hit points' in forum fights. We ARE about growing in grace and the knowledge of Our Lord, are we not? How about telling others the truth so that they can be SAVED one day and go to Heaven, not just so they can join our exclusive 'I believe Fr. so-and-so' club.

Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.