Author Topic: Confused about the Jєωs (Read 7251 times)

TraditionalistThomas · « **on:** June 11, 2012, 09:23:48 AM »

Okay, so I have a couple of questions. I'm seriously dumbfounded. I believed that the Old Covenant was no longer in effect; that the Jєωs should be evangelised to rather than left alone as taught by modern clergy; and that Jєωs are no longer the chosen people, Catholics are. I thought that was the traditional teaching of the Church. I generally avoided post-Conciliar sources, as I do with anything concerning church teaching. But, someone challenged me on this.

A) Is the Old Covenant still in effect? I believed that it wasn't, but the modern Catechism states in paragraph 121 that it was never revoked. The person I am reading said that "The Jєωιѕн People will always be the chosen people. Catholics are simply spiritual Jєωs who have been grafted into the Olive tree of the Israel as a result of our faith in the Jєωιѕн Messiah". It also apparently says in Nostra Aetate that the covenant between God and the Jєωιѕн people is eternal and never broken, never to be broken.

B) Are the Jєωs still the chosen people? I have heard countless times, from countless traditional sources, that they are no longer the chosen people. Now I don't know what to think.

I wish things were simple. I just want true doctrine. I don't want any of the rubbish ambiguous post-conciliar docuмents.

Any help?

Through the hearts of Jesus and Mary,

Thomas

LordPhan · « **Reply #1 on:** June 11, 2012, 09:44:03 AM »

You have been answered at Ignis Ardens.

TraditionalistThomas · « **Reply #2 on:** June 11, 2012, 09:51:06 AM »

Thanks friend.

Malleus 01 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 11, 2012, 11:03:40 AM »

Quote from: TraditionalistThomas

Okay, so I have a couple of questions. I'm seriously dumbfounded. I believed that the Old Covenant was no longer in effect; that the Jєωs should be evangelised to rather than left alone as taught by modern clergy; and that Jєωs are no longer the chosen people, Catholics are. I thought that was the traditional teaching of the Church. I generally avoided post-Conciliar sources, as I do with anything concerning church teaching. But, someone challenged me on this.

A) Is the Old Covenant still in effect? I believed that it wasn't, but the modern Catechism states in paragraph 121 that it was never revoked. The person I am reading said that "The Jєωιѕн People will always be the chosen people. Catholics are simply spiritual Jєωs who have been grafted into the Olive tree of the Israel as a result of our faith in the Jєωιѕн Messiah". It also apparently says in Nostra Aetate that the covenant between God and the Jєωιѕн people is eternal and never broken, never to be broken.

B) Are the Jєωs still the chosen people? I have heard countless times, from countless traditional sources, that they are no longer the chosen people. Now I don't know what to think.

I wish things were simple. I just want true doctrine. I don't want any of the rubbish ambiguous post-conciliar docuмents.

Any help?

Through the hearts of Jesus and Mary,

Thomas

First published in The Reign of Mary, Issue #122
Modernist Church: Conversion of the Jєωs Not Necessary

This startling heresy has come more sharply into focus in the last twenty-five years or so. Although not explicitly contained in Nostra Aetate of Vatican II, it was there implicitly (after all, in the spirit of false ecuмenism, we can’t be teaching the necessity of salvation in the one true Church founded by Christ). One of our readers, Edward L. Pugh, Ph.D., noted what Robert Sungenis had to say on this point in the New Oxford Review of October, 2005. There, Sungenis listed five “outlandish claims concerning the Jєωιѕн people” that came after Vatican II:
“The Old Covenant has never been revoked” (John Paul II, 1980).
“The Jєωιѕн wait for the Messiah is not in vain” (Pontifical Biblical Commission under Cardinal Ratzinger, 2001).
“The Church believes that Judaism, i.e., the faithful response of the Jєωιѕн people to God’s irrevocable Covenant, is salvific for them” (Cardinal Kasper, 2001).
“To proselytize [Jєωs] is not an attitude of love, nor is it one of knowledge!” (Cardinal Willebrands, 1992).
“Campaigns that target Jєωs for conversion to Christianity are no longer theologically acceptable to the Catholic Church” (Cardinal Keeler, 2002).
Mr. Pugh then contrasts these with the correct view as expressed in Thomas A. Droleskey’s commentary on Fr. Zigrang’s suspension by “Bishop” Joseph A. Fiorenza (The Remnant, 8/15/04):
“Bishop Fiorenza’s assertion that the ‘Old Testament Covenant God established with the people of Israel’ is enduringly valid is itself heretical. No human being can be saved by a belief in the Mosaic Covenant, which was superseded in its entirety when the curtain was torn in two in the Temple on Good Friday, at the moment Our Lord breathed His last on the Holy Cross. It is a fundamental act of fidelity to the truths of the Holy Faith to resist and to denounce the heretical contention made in person by Bishop Fiorenza to Father Zigrang last year that Jєωs are saved by the Mosaic Covenant. Were the Apostles, including the first pope, St. Peter, wrong to try to convert the Jєωs? Was Our Lord joking when He said that a person had no life in him if he did not eat of His Body and drink of His Blood?”
Needless to say, not only was Bp. Fiorenza’s statement heretical, but also the five “outlandish claims” listed above (Dr. Droleskey, at the time, seemed to be quite unaware that his “pope” was preaching the same as Bp. Fiorenza, although he came to see it later. Consequently, he came to the conclusion that Benedict XVI is not a true pope.) We thank Mr. Pugh for reminding us that the Old Covenant has been replaced by the New, and we add these words of St. Paul (Hebrews 8:8-13):
“For, finding fault with them, he saith: Behold, the days shall come, saith the Lord: and I will perfect, unto the house of Israel and unto the house of Juda, a new testament:
“Not according to the testament which I made to their fathers, on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt: because they continued not in my testament: and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
“For this is the testament which I will make to the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my laws into their mind, and in their heart will I write them. And I will be their God: and they shall be my people.
“And they shall not teach every man his neighbor and every man his brother, saying: Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest of them.
“Because I will be merciful to their iniquities: and their sins I will remember no more.
“Now in saying a new, he hath made the former old. And that which decayeth and groweth old is near its end.”
St. Paul continues a couple of chapters later (10:8-9):
“In saying before: Sacrifices and oblations and h0Ɩ0cαųsts for sin thou wouldest not: neither are they pleasing to thee, which are offered according to the law.
“Then said I, Behold, I come to do thy will, O God: He taketh away the first, that he may establish that which followeth.” (The Confraternity version of Scripture reads: “Behold, I come to do thy will, O God; he annuls the first covenant in order to establish the second.”)
Could it be any clearer, then, that the Gospel is for all, and necessary for all, that they may be saved? “There is neither Jєω nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus“ (Galatians 3:28).

Diego · « **Reply #4 on:** June 11, 2012, 12:16:29 PM »

Most "Jєω" questions can be answered here:
http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Judaism-101Judaism-in-its-Own-Words-and-those-of-the-Church

Quote from: TraditionalistThomas

A) Is the Old Covenant still in effect? I believed that it wasn't, but the modern Catechism states in paragraph 121 that it was never revoked. The person I am reading said that "The Jєωιѕн People will always be the chosen people. Catholics are simply spiritual Jєωs who have been grafted into the Olive tree of the Israel as a result of our faith in the Jєωιѕн Messiah". It also apparently says in Nostra Aetate that the covenant between God and the Jєωιѕн people is eternal and never broken, never to be broken.

There is more than one "Old" Covenant. In this context the Mosaic and Abrahamic Covenants are most germane. Judaizers intentionally conflate these Covenants to sow confusion among the faithful and to appear to elevate the ѕуηαgσgυє's damned position.

The Abrahamic Covenant was with Abram the Gentile and was a Covenant with him and his spiritual descendants. The ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan feigns a carnal connection to Abraham, but Jesus damned that claim:

Quote

Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father. For I tell you that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham.

As you'd expect, the science and genealogy corroborate what Jesus said. The αѕнкenαzιm's origins in European Khazaria also makes the ѕуηαgσgυє's carnal "Abraham" claim laughable:

Quote

Here is an interesting paper studying mitochondrial DNA (mitochondrial DNA is inherited only from the mother, so its study is apropos their tribal obsession about who is and who is not "human" in their view). The researchers are mostly of the holy genocidal tribe (wholly genocidal tribe?):

Thomas MG, Weale ME, Jones AL, Richards M, Smith A, Redhead N, Torroni A, Scozzari R, Gratrix F, Tarekegn A, Wilson JF, Capelli C, Bradman N, Goldstein DB.
Founding mothers of Jєωιѕн communities: geographically separated Jєωιѕн groups were independently founded by very few female ancestors.
Am J Hum Genet. 2002 Jun;70(6):1411-20. Epub 2002 Apr 30.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC379128/pdf/AJHGv70p1411.pdf

Translating the distinctly technical language of their conclusion, the researchers found diversity of mitochondrial DNA slightly less than "host populations" (interesting choice of words on the researchers’ part, since "host" certainly suggests "parasite"), so they postulate several separate "founding events." Then they note a special connection with the nation of Georgia (the former region of Khazaria).

Hence, the αѕнкenαzιs are not semitic, only slightly less diverse than "host" populations, and do have genetics suggesting a slight preponderance of "founding" mothers from the region of Khazaria.

Who cares? Notwithstanding their Master Race creed, there is no racial back door to Heaven and no racial chute to Hell.

Notwithstanding errant exegesis by Protestant dispensationalists and Zionists, God was not speaking to or about Jєωιѕн people because there was no Jєωιѕн nation—Abram, not yet Abraham, was still a Gentile and God was speaking to Abram alone.

St. Paul affirms in Galatians 3:6-8 that God’s covenant with Abram, later Abraham, was made to him as a Gentile:

Quote

“As it is written: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice. Know ye therefore, that they who are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing, that God justifieth the Gentiles by faith, told unto Abraham before: In thee shall all nations be blessed.”
http://www.drbo.org/chapter/55003.htm

St. Paul further elaborates on the justification of and covenant with Abraham before he was a Jєω in Romans chapter 4. http://www.drbo.org/chapter/52004.htm

Properly speaking the Mosaic Covenant was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. The Mosaic Covenant is now a "dead letter."

ABRAHAMIC COVENANT WITH ALL PEOPLE IS IRREVOCABLE

Genesis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee, and between thy seed after thee in their generations, by a perpetual covenant: to be a God to thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Hebrews 6:13-18 For God making promise to Abraham, because he had no one greater by whom he might swear, swore by himself, Saying: Unless blessing I shall bless thee, and multiplying I shall multiply thee. And so patiently enduring he obtained the promise. For men swear by one greater than themselves: and an oath for confirmation is the end of all their controversy. Wherein God, meaning more abundantly to shew to the heirs of the promise the immutability of his counsel, interposed an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we may have the strongest comfort, who have fled for refuge to hold fast the hope set before us.
Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jєω nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you be Christ's, then are you the seed of Abraham, heirs according to the promise.

MOSAIC COVENANT IS REVOKED

Through His Prophet Jeremias, God warned that He would replace the Mosaic covenant:

Quote

Jeremias 31:31-32 Behold the days shall come, saith the Lord, and I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda: Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt: the covenant which they made void, and I had dominion over them, saith the Lord.

2 Corinthians 3:6-15 Who also hath made us fit ministers of the new testament, not in the letter, but in the spirit. For the letter killeth, but the spirit quickeneth. Now if the ministration of death, engraven with letters upon stones, was glorious; so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses, for the glory of his countenance, which is made void: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather in glory? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more the ministration of justice aboundeth in glory. For even that which was glorious in this part was not glorified, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is in glory. Having therefore such hope, we use much confidence: And not as Moses put a veil upon his face, that the children of Israel might not steadfastly look on the face of that which is made void. But their senses were made dull. For, until this present day, the selfsame veil, in the reading of the old testament, remaineth not taken away (because in Christ it is made void). But even until this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.

Colossians 2:14-15 Blotting out the handwriting of the decree that was against us, which was contrary to us. And he hath taken the same out of the way, fastening it to the cross: And despoiling the principalities and powers, he hath exposed them confidently in open shew, triumphing over them in himself.

Ephesians 2:15 Making void the law of commandments contained in decrees; that he might make the two in himself into one new man, making peace

Hebrews 7:18 There is indeed a setting aside of the former commandment, because of the weakness and unprofitableness thereof

Hebrews 8:1-13 Now of the things which we have spoken, this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of majesty in the heavens, A minister of the holies, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord hath pitched, and not man. For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is necessary that he also should have some thing to offer. If then he were on earth, he would not be a priest: seeing that there would be others to offer gifts according to the law, Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things. As it was answered to Moses, when he was to finish the tabernacle: See (saith he) that thou make all things according to the pattern which was shewn thee on the mount. But now he hath obtained a better ministry, by how much also he is a mediator of a better testament, which is established on better promises. For if that former had been faultless, there should not indeed a place have been sought for a second. For finding fault with them, he saith: Behold, the days shall come, saith the Lord: and I will perfect unto the house of Israel, and unto the house of Juda, a new testament: Not according to the testament which I made to their fathers, on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt: because they continued not in my testament: and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the testament which I will make to the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my laws into their mind, and in their heart will I write them: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me from the least to the greatest of them: Because I will be merciful to their iniquities, and their sins I will remember no more. Now in saying a new, he hath made the former old. And that which decayeth and groweth old, is near its end.

Hebrews 10:9 Then said I: Behold, I come to do thy will, O God: he taketh away the first, that he may establish that which followeth.

Quote from: TraditionalistThomas

B) Are the Jєωs still the chosen people? I have heard countless times, from countless traditional sources, that they are no longer the chosen people. Now I don't know what to think.

TRUE Jєωs (practicing Catholics) are still the Chosen People:

Quote

1 Peter 2:9-10 But you are a chosen generation, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people: that you may declare his virtues, who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light: Who in time past were not a people: but are now the people of God. Who had not obtained mercy; but now have obtained mercy.

The rest are exactly what Jesus Christ, True God and True Man, Second Person of the Holy Trinity, Messiah, said in Apocalypse 3:9:

Quote

"...the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan, those who SAY they are Jєωs, but are NOT, and do LIE."

Traditional Guy 20 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 11, 2012, 12:34:41 PM »

Good post Diego I must say. I was just going to say no and no but you used a lot more evidence. :applause:

Diego · « **Reply #6 on:** June 11, 2012, 05:40:33 PM »

Thank you, but I cannot take the credit. Others have done the heavy work that I only repeat here.

Marcelino · « **Reply #7 on:** June 12, 2012, 06:07:26 PM »

:reading:

Nishant · « **Reply #8 on:** June 12, 2012, 06:33:57 PM »

Also, Our Lord's parable about the tenants who murdered the son of the householder (Mat 21:33-46) explains the true doctrine.

38 But the husbandmen seeing the son, said among themselves: This is the heir: come, let us kill him, and we shall have his inheritance. 39 And taking him, they cast him forth out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do to those husbandmen? 41 They say to him: He will bring those evil men to an evil end and let out his vineyard to other husbandmen that shall render him the fruit in due season. 42 Jesus says to them: Have you never read in the Scriptures: The stone which the builders rejected, the same has become the head of the corner? By the Lord this has been done; and it is wonderful in our eyes. 43 Therefore I say to you that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof.

This one passage by its own strength refutes entirely the pretensions of modern Zionist theology. It proves first that the chastisement of 70 A.D. when Jerusalem was destroyed was divine judgment on that city for rejecting Christ and the Prophets before Him (a theme further expounded two chapters hence in 23:37-38). It shows secondly that those Jєωs that persisted in unbelief are cut off from the Kingdom of God and that it is instead given to the Gentiles who believe in Christ.

And thus the prophecy of Malachi is fulfilled. God receives no sacrifice at all from the Jєωs, but the true and universal sacrifice offered by the Gentiles, which is the Sacrifice of the Mass, is pleasing to Him (Mal 1:10-11)

Diego · « **Reply #9 on:** June 12, 2012, 08:18:33 PM »

Quote from: Nishant2011

Also, Our Lord's parable about the tenants who murdered the son of the householder (Mat 21:33-46) explains the true doctrine.

38 But the husbandmen seeing the son, said among themselves: This is the heir: come, let us kill him, and we shall have his inheritance. 39 And taking him, they cast him forth out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do to those husbandmen? 41 They say to him: He will bring those evil men to an evil end and let out his vineyard to other husbandmen that shall render him the fruit in due season. 42 Jesus says to them: Have you never read in the Scriptures: The stone which the builders rejected, the same has become the head of the corner? By the Lord this has been done; and it is wonderful in our eyes. 43 Therefore I say to you that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof.

This one passage by its own strength refutes entirely the pretensions of modern Zionist theology. It proves first that the chastisement of 70 A.D. when Jerusalem was destroyed was divine judgment on that city for rejecting Christ and the Prophets before Him (a theme further expounded two chapters hence in 23:37-38). It shows secondly that those Jєωs that persisted in unbelief are cut off from the Kingdom of God and that it is instead given to the Gentiles who believe in Christ.

And thus the prophecy of Malachi is fulfilled. God receives no sacrifice at all from the Jєωs, but the true and universal sacrifice offered by the Gentiles, which is the Sacrifice of the Mass, is pleasing to Him (Mal 1:10-11)

A KEY parable to understand the Deicides! The murderers KNEW Who He was! They INTENDED to replace their Savior, their Messiah, with their own fraudulent religion. They are indeed of the devil.

Francisco · « **Reply #10 on:** June 13, 2012, 05:44:09 AM »

It is said that almost all of today's Jєωs (90%?) are of Khazar origin. Khazaria being a kingdom in Central Asia in times gone by.

A whole section of Khazars also migrated to India around the 6th Century AD. They adopted Hinduism but no doubt incorporated some of the Khazar customs into it. The entire state of Gujarat is made up of Khazars. Because of the way words are pronounced on the sub-continent, they are known as Gujjars ( pronounced Guzzars). Gujarat is the land of the Gujaratis or Gujjars. They are now found all over the world running grocery stores, motels (known as potels - after Patel - in the USA) and other such businesses.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #11 on:** October 05, 2012, 03:38:54 AM »

Francisco, that theory is not supported by the genetic evidence.

If the Polish and Russian Jєωs were Khazars, why did they speak yiddish German?

They were Jєωs who were expelled from Germany in the middle ages and resettled in Poland-Lithuania - which once extended far into what is now Russia and Ukraine. Even to the border of Smolensk.

Belloc · « **Reply #12 on:** October 05, 2012, 09:44:54 AM »

Khazars are debated, I know talking to Sungenis, he discoounts the theory. Me, likely some truth, though not about the Khazars to India, hindu thing. Khazars converting to тαℓмυdic judiasm is possible and hence, easier intermarriage of "Jєωs" with "Khazars"...likely said group moved around and got displaced,etc..

Polish and German Jєωs were likely part of the wandering folks post 70/132 AD the dispersed into modern day Syria, Iraq and surrounding areas, plus many that were kicked out of other nations, like Spain, etc....

its their lot, due to unbelief to wander and to be kicked out occ......they are a constant reminder to all of us of the danger of rejecting Truth...

Diego · « **Reply #13 on:** October 05, 2012, 08:06:30 PM »

Quote

SEMITES OR KHAZARS? WHO CARES?
The genetic science corroborates, "Khazars."

Here is an interesting paper studying mitochondrial DNA (mitochondrial DNA is inherited only from the mother, so its study is apropos their tribal obsession about who is and who is not "human" in their view). The researchers are mostly of the holy genocidal tribe (wholly genocidal tribe?):

Thomas MG, Weale ME, Jones AL, Richards M, Smith A, Redhead N, Torroni A, Scozzari R, Gratrix F, Tarekegn A, Wilson JF, Capelli C, Bradman N, Goldstein DB.
Founding mothers of Jєωιѕн communities: geographically separated Jєωιѕн groups were independently founded by very few female ancestors.
Am J Hum Genet. 2002 Jun;70(6):1411-20. Epub 2002 Apr 30.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC379128/pdf/AJHGv70p1411.pdf

Translating the distinctly technical language of their conclusion, the researchers found diversity of mitochondrial DNA slightly less than "host populations" (interesting choice of words on the researchers’ part, since "host" certainly suggests "parasite"), so they postulate several separate "founding events." Then they note a special connection with Georgia (the former region of Khazaria).

Hence, the αѕнкenαzιs are not semitic, only slightly less diverse than "host" populations, and do have genetics suggesting a slight preponderance of "founding" mothers from the region of Khazaria.

Who cares? Notwithstanding their Master Race creed, there is no racial back door to Heaven and no racial chute to Hell.

This thread is part of the antidote to the Judaizing poison being spread here by the latest schizophrenic "I'm a Catholic, I am Zionist" poseur.

poche · « **Reply #14 on:** October 06, 2012, 03:48:04 AM »

The Old Covenant was never revoked and theJєωs are still the chosen people. However the Old Covenant was fulfilled by the coming of Jesus and His death and resurection from the dead. And no one is exempt from the need to hear the message of Christ. The only question is "How?"