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Traditional Catholic Faith => General Discussion => Topic started by: gobosox91 on April 19, 2012, 11:08:49 AM
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What historical and biblical basis do we have for confession? I threw out Jack Chick's and Alexander Hislop's claims about coming from Babylon since there is no evidence the Babylonians practiced that.
But what is th history of confession? How did it evolve to the way it is today?
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I'll try this. At the beginning of the Bible: Burnt offerings were asked by God for Thanksgiving and sorrow for sin and such. Then when Christ came, the scriptures from the beginning of the bible til Christs coming pointed to the need to remove sin, forgiveness of sin and when Christ died, it was His Precious Blood, which is in all the sacraments. He gave a command to the Apostles, "What sins you forgive they are forgiven and what sins are not, they are not." Man has a need to go through the words, actions, conscious and such to know that sin is forgiven BUT, to receive the Precious Blood!! Who would not want His Blood!! His Blood is saving. HOw many sects like the Aztec's saw blood sacrifice as important, only they were in error as we know. There is research to do. The Aztec's from what I read somewhere, that the Aztec's were once Catholic. Who ever did the research, showed evidence that they had confession as well as Catholic symbols on tombs or such. Very interesting and if so, that should be an eye opener to us all of what error can do! Thank God that Our Lady made herself known to the Aztec's! It was the biggest conversion that ever happened on the Planet Earth!
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What historical and biblical basis do we have for confession?
John 20:23 is one of the main Biblical verses revealing the sacrament of confession. This is where Jesus ordained his disciples by breathing on them, saying as he did so that he gave them the power to forgive or to retain sins.
I can't think of any others off the top of my head, though I think confession is mentioned several times in the epistles.
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What historical and biblical basis do we have for confession? I threw out Jack Chick's and Alexander Hislop's claims about coming from Babylon since there is no evidence the Babylonians practiced that.
But what is th history of confession? How did it evolve to the way it is today?
Why did you throw out the Jack Chick comics? Best thing protestantism has going, bar none! Mr. Chick is at least funny, readable, enjoyable and he seems to truly believe what his comics are saying!
Jesus of Nazareth established the Sacrament of Penance in the Gospels.
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Could be this person IS a Protestant, since he seems to know more about what the Protestant's favorite replies are to Catholics.
You might as well know right now gobosox that no one Protestant can ever get the best of a Catholic who knows their faith.
Why?
True Catholics have the Truth, and the truth will set you free.
Protestants only take the first step. They say, they believe in God, most even go so far as to say they believe in the Trinity, but every things stops there for them, because quite simply they do exactly what the fallen angels did. The fallen angels believe in God, the fallen angels believed in the Trinity, but the fallen angels would not honor His mother. They were too proud!
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Could be this person IS a Protestant, since he seems to know more about what the Protestant's favorite replies are to Catholics.
You might as well know right now gobosox that no one Protestant can ever get the best of a Catholic who knows their faith.
Why?
True Catholics have the Truth, and the truth will set you free.
Protestants only take the first step. They say, they believe in God, most even go so far as to say they believe in the Trinity, but every things stops there for them, because quite simply they do exactly what the fallen angels did. The fallen angels believe in God, the fallen angels believed in the Trinity, but the fallen angels would not honor His mother. They were too proud!
Yes he/she may be protestant though I'm not sure what your point is.
I can't help but notice the condescending tone to this post. I get the feeling that its saying, "I'm better than you because I am Catholic".
I don't know the background of gobosox91 and perhaps they are protestant and searching for the truth. But I wouldn't be overly impressed if I were in their situation with the lack of charity shown by posts like this. If anything, posts like this are more likely to turn people away.
Yes Protestantism is an error but it is far better to instruct and correct someone with charity then look down on them in a condescending manner with the holier than thou attitude.
I have seen this kind of thing a lot and I think a lot of Catholics have the mentality that they are saved and better than others because they have the traditional faith. We must remember that holiness and charity are not handed out in show bags as you enter the Tradition Church but it is something that must be worked towards always.
I am speaking mainly from my observation of cetain people who attend traditional chapels and when they see someone new they kind of stare at them like they have two heads instead of going up to them and making them feel welcome.
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It just occurred to me: the Gospel lesson for the Mass of this past Sunday contains the record of Our Lord's institution of the Sacrament of Penance (St. John, ch. xx., 19-31).
You can find a commentary on it here: http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=17445&min=10#p0
For more information on Scriptural questions:
You can find commentaries on the Sunday Gospel lessons here: http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Gospel-Commentaries-for-Sundays
And commentaries on the Sunday Epistle lessons here: http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Epistle-Commentaries-for-Sundays
You can also find commentaries on the Sunday Masses (as found in the traditional Roman Misssal) here: http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Catholic-Students-Aids-to-Holy-Mass
Again, prayer is greater than study: if not done prayerfully, the study of theological questions can be perilous at times.
Here is a prayer written by St. Thomas Aquinas that I recommend you to pray:
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/platonic123/Sacred%20Texts/PrayerbeforeStudy.jpg)
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What historical and biblical basis do we have for confession? I threw out Jack Chick's and Alexander Hislop's claims about coming from Babylon since there is no evidence the Babylonians practiced that.
But what is th history of confession? How did it evolve to the way it is today?
Why did you throw out the Jack Chick comics? Best thing protestantism has going, bar none! Mr. Chick is at least funny, readable, enjoyable and he seems to truly believe what his comics are saying!
Jesus of Nazareth established the Sacrament of Penance in the Gospels.
Yea, my Evangelical uncle used to bring them around when I was younger and used to read them, they were indeed quite humorous if anything.
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But what is the history of confession? How did it evolve to the way it is today?
Auricular confession was actually part of the OT dispensation, too, although I do not have any specific references for you.
Even secular society's use of shrinks, AA's use of sharing all past faults with another, etc., point to the need and benefit of sharing, i.e., confessing one's burdens with another.
This natural need has been supernaturalized, if you will; it has been elevated to the level of a sacrament, much the way marriage, which is a lifelong bond even according to the natural law, was elevated and became the sacrament of Holy Matrimony.
I hope this helps, however slightly.
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The first century docuмent the Didache or teaching of the Apostles says,
“In church confess your sins, and do not come to your prayer with a guilt conscience. Such is the Way of Life...On the Lord's own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks; but first confess your sins, so that your sacrifice may be pure." Didache, 4:14,14:1 (c. A.D. 90).
The institution of this Sacrament is in John 20. "[21] He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. [22] When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. [23] Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained."
Bishop Challoner's commentary: "See here the commission, stamped by the broad seal of heaven, by virtue of which the pastors of Christ's church absolve repenting sinners upon their confession."
You should read the whole Council of Trent which addresses all of this in detail.
Certain other passages of interest are Mat 18:18 which also applies to sins. James 5:14-16 tells us to confess our sins orally and which relates the sacrament of extreme unction (or "annointing of the sick") also shows beyond reasonable doubt that this power to forgive sins remains in the Church since the Apostles and resides in her priests and Bishops. Finally, in 2 Cor 2:10 St.Paul says he forgives sins "in the person of Christ". In the same epistle (5:18), the Apostle further explains that God has given him "the ministry of reconciliation".
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Could be this person IS a Protestant, since he seems to know more about what the Protestant's favorite replies are to Catholics.
You might as well know right now gobosox that no one Protestant can ever get the best of a Catholic who knows their faith.
Why?
True Catholics have the Truth, and the truth will set you free.
Protestants only take the first step. They say, they believe in God, most even go so far as to say they believe in the Trinity, but every things stops there for them, because quite simply they do exactly what the fallen angels did. The fallen angels believe in God, the fallen angels believed in the Trinity, but the fallen angels would not honor His mother. They were too proud!
Yes he/she may be protestant though I'm not sure what your point is.
I can't help but notice the condescending tone to this post. I get the feeling that its saying, "I'm better than you because I am Catholic".
I don't know the background of gobosox91 and perhaps they are protestant and searching for the truth. But I wouldn't be overly impressed if I were in their situation with the lack of charity shown by posts like this. If anything, posts like this are more likely to turn people away.
Yes Protestantism is an error but it is far better to instruct and correct someone with charity then look down on them in a condescending manner with the holier than thou attitude.
I have seen this kind of thing a lot and I think a lot of Catholics have the mentality that they are saved and better than others because they have the traditional faith. We must remember that holiness and charity are not handed out in show bags as you enter the Tradition Church but it is something that must be worked towards always.
I am speaking mainly from my observation of cetain people who attend traditional chapels and when they see someone new they kind of stare at them like they have two heads instead of going up to them and making them feel welcome.
Maybe my note came across to you in that way, and maybe I just get tired of Protestants with their same old, always the same things they say to Catholics, always these canned accusations thrown at us.
If the poster is Protestant, then he/she should say so, not pretend to be a Catholic who is confused.
If the poster is indeed Protestant looking for the truth; I can't imagine any Catholic who would NOT go out of their way to help the person as you would have observed by reading the replies from the other threads this poster started. Thinking the questions were asked in earnest.
Sorry but after a few threads he started and bringing up people like Jack Chick, I am indeed suspicious of this poster. If I am wrong and the person does come out and truthfully reveals to us, exactly his intentions, I will apologize for this post, and my suspicions.
BTW ... I have never felt that I was better than anyone in my life. The reason I am not guilty of this is because I know that I am not better. I am Catholic because I have cried tears, and begged God to show me the Truth, when Vatican II was robbing the Church right before my face in the early 60's.
I have the truth because of God's grace and nothing that I can attribute to my own doing, I don't deserve this gift because of my great offenses. Yet, by the mercy of God, He has graced me.
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My goal, here, is to find truth. My biggest concern is if I get into Heaven. May God the Father guide you and me….
One of my first questions is regarding Mary. How do we know that it was Mary in Revelation 12? Many have suggested that it was not Mary and it was Israel or the Church. One objection I heard was that John did not assert she was Mary, as he would have done if he were truly in contact with her, since he took care of her. However, he speaks of a child who will rule with an iron rod: obviously Jesus. Yet he does not assert his name, but he implies it. What reasons do we have to assert that it is Mary? If it is not Mary, does it diminish her role? Is “Our Lady of Guadalupe” merely just a deception from the enemy?
Second: who is the whore of Babylon? Third: who is the beast? Is it both the Church and the papacy?
Fourth: if you sell your soul to the devil and you get what you want, can you come back to God? And if you do repent, is it a sin to use what you were given? I feel I have given in to that and had that come true. It has become scary. I want to call the devil my… L word. Jesus is the Lord.
Fifth: I keep reading everything involving Christianity and it seems Catholicism makes the most sense, but I’m skeptical of joining it. I’ve been raised Catholic, but the claims of Fundies bug me. What do I do?
Sixth: Idolatry. If the Jєωs believed in the Ten Commandments in Jesus' days as Protestants do today, then why do we make statues? Or such? Ik of the Bronze Serpent, the Ark, and Solomon's Temple, but why do we rearrange it?
Seventh: How do we TEST Marian apparitions to see if they are from Mary? I believe Lourdes is true because Bernadette tested her and she didn't say anything suspicious, other than I am the Immaculate Conception, which is believable if she is the new Ark or Eve.
My previous note above was written before I read this post on another thread started.
He is explaining his dilemma, and I do apologize for my suspicions toward this person.
Please forgive me, for my thinking you were not in earnest. My hope now, is that you will take the time to read some basic catechism from Traditional catechism books, and pray to know the truth when you hear it, and that God will give you the grace to love the truth, and the grace to act on the truth.