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Author Topic: CONCLUSIONS to Personal Position on Pope Poll  (Read 2470 times)

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Offline Nadir

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Re: CONCLUSIONS to Personal Position on Pope Poll
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2018, 09:10:33 PM »
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  • It's a conundrum. It isn't a good idea to ban sedes but on the other hand they are also extremely annoying and cause disunity (IMO). The recent article that may have been written by Fr. Nitoglia (it still hasn't been determined who wrote it) says that the subject of Sedeism should be debated, so as to show the flaws in sedeism. I agree, though hesitatingly so. It take up a lot of our valuable time to debate the sedes in order to show them wrong. It sometimes results with a lack of charity from both sides.
    What is sedeism? Can't say I have ever heard of it? A quick search did not reveal the meaning.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: CONCLUSIONS to Personal Position on Pope Poll
    « Reply #16 on: May 01, 2018, 09:30:05 PM »
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  • I thought it was bad enough when r&r zealots were calling Catholics who don’t believe Jorge is the pope heretics or schismatics.  But now taking the sv position is being compared to murder.  Unbelievable!  Bishop Fellay really did a great job with the branding.  5th Avenue marketers have nothing on the sspx and its resistance offshoot.
    This really isn't the fault of Bishop Fellay. (There's a 4 year old Cath Info thread I haven't been able to pull up where Cantarella gives a really nice juxtaposition between what Bishop Fellay and Archbishop Lefebvre said vs what Fr. Pfeiffer said- the two popes). The classic (and apparently current!!!) SSPX position is that there is doubt regarding Francis and those other post-conciliar popes. Bishop Fellay et al. have publicly doubted the legitimacy of the post-conciliar popes.
    These Cath Info posters (Sean Johnson, Pax Vobis and Meg) are basically saying that it is not permitted not even for a second to doubt the legitimacy of Francis or you are cast off out of the Church (but he remains in it somehow- they're doing the dirty work for masonic religious indifferentism without knowing it.)
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline roscoe

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    Re: CONCLUSIONS to Personal Position on Pope Poll
    « Reply #17 on: May 01, 2018, 09:48:11 PM »
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  • What is sedeism? Can't say I have ever heard of it? A quick search did not reveal the meaning
    I would imagine sedeism to be a study of who the Pope is :cheers:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: CONCLUSIONS to Personal Position on Pope Poll
    « Reply #18 on: May 02, 2018, 07:57:35 AM »
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  • Bishop Fellay et al. have publicly doubted the legitimacy of the post-conciliar popes.

    Right, and this is the major point of sede-doubtism.  If you don't accept them as legitimate Popes with the certainty of faith (since normally this has to be a dogmatic fact), then we're in a Papa dubius papa nullus situation.  If he (and the others) had certainty of faith regarding legitimacy, there's absolutely NO PLACE whatsoever for publicly questioning legitimacy any more than you would question whether Jesus is God (as Matthew put it in the poll).  It would be scandalous and gravely sinful to doubt their legitimacy.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: CONCLUSIONS to Personal Position on Pope Poll
    « Reply #19 on: May 02, 2018, 08:24:00 AM »
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  • Quote
    Doubts matter to those who have them. There’s no implication in having doubts that one is having them because one thinks ones own views are of some kind of significance to the world.
    My point is that, in the sphere of the Catholic religion, there are certain areas where the Church tells us that we are not allowed to have doubts.  If doubts still persist, it is our fault/weakness and not based on objective reality.  In areas of ecclesiastical law and government, the laity's doubt's are a waste of time, for we have no input, training or authority to affect the situation.


    Offline St.Patrick

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    Re: CONCLUSIONS to Personal Position on Pope Poll
    « Reply #20 on: May 02, 2018, 08:41:35 AM »
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  • Well thanks Matthew for clarifying all this.

    What BTW is the difference between the R&R position and the option listed which says "he most certainly is Pope" ?

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: CONCLUSIONS to Personal Position on Pope Poll
    « Reply #21 on: May 02, 2018, 10:18:31 AM »
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  • Well thanks Matthew for clarifying all this.

    What BTW is the difference between the R&R position and the option listed which says "he most certainly is Pope" ?
    The "most certainly is Pope with the certainty of Faith" is different from R&R, which goes ahead and assumes he's pope, but doesn't place the certainty up there with the Holy Trinity or anything.
    There's certainly a difference.
    My expression above is basically the position of a "dogmatic sedeplenist". 
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    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: CONCLUSIONS to Personal Position on Pope Poll
    « Reply #22 on: May 04, 2018, 12:50:49 PM »
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  • I always believed that the R&R were the same as "He is the Pope, as certainly as Jesus Christ is God. 6 (4.9%)"

    SHOCKING!
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    Offline GottmitunsAlex

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    Re: CONCLUSIONS to Personal Position on Pope Poll
    « Reply #23 on: May 06, 2018, 11:50:16 PM »
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  • "As the head of the Church, I cannot answer you otherwise: The Jєωs have not recognized Our Lord; therefore we cannot recognize the Jєωιѕн people." -Pope St. Pius X

    "No Jєω adores God! Who say so?  The Son of God say so."

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: CONCLUSIONS to Personal Position on Pope Poll
    « Reply #24 on: May 27, 2018, 07:36:04 AM »
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  • It's cut and dry. When you recognize a Pope, you are bound to his decrees, teachings, encyclicals, universal ordinary magisterium., etc etc. One can't syphon what one deems to be Catholic.


    So what do you say about those who do "siphon" -- I think you mean sift -- what one deems to be Catholic?

    No, it's not cut and dried. Maybe in your mind, but you can't impose that "cut and dried"-ness on anyone else.

    It is a fact that there are many Traditional Catholics that vehemently disagree with you. Just look at the poll that is the topic of this thread! If the issue were truly "cut and dried", there would only be 2 real options in the poll. But how do you reconcile the fact that so many Trads reject your "cut and dried" sedevacantist answer to the problem?

    1. Ignorance
    2. Malice

    But many who hold the other positions are well read and well informed about the issue. Myself, for example. I have run a forum for 12 years and have considered all the positions and arguments. But there are many others on CI easily as well informed as I. The majority of CI members aren't babes in the woods. So none of these can claim ignorance about the issues surrounding sedevacantism. They are willfully choosing another path, when faced with the same data you're looking at. They're just focusing on another aspect of the crisis, and deciding that a different solution is better.

    So you are left with: malice. And that is precisely the position of countless dogmatic sedevacantists, such as the Dimond Brothers, who decide to condemn all who don't see things their way.

    If everyone who doesn't agree with you knows what he's doing, and the issue is completely black and white (such as being pro-abortion or pro-life) then they must be malicious. There is no other option.

    I don't believe the issue is black and white, and that's what allows me to not condemn my brethren in the Trad movement that disagree with me on this or that point.
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    Offline GottmitunsAlex

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    Re: CONCLUSIONS to Personal Position on Pope Poll
    « Reply #25 on: May 27, 2018, 10:31:07 AM »
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  • So you are left with: malice. And that is precisely the position of countless dogmatic sedevacantists, such as the Dimond Brothers, who decide to condemn all who don't see things their way.

    If everyone who doesn't agree with you knows what he's doing, and the issue is completely black and white (such as being pro-abortion or pro-life) then they must be malicious. There is no other option.

    I don't believe the issue is black and white, and that's what allows me to not condemn my brethren in the Trad movement that disagree with me on this or that point.
    I am not nothing like the Dimond folks, nor do I condemn anyone. I am only positing logical Catholic answers.
    Have a blessed Sunday.
    "As the head of the Church, I cannot answer you otherwise: The Jєωs have not recognized Our Lord; therefore we cannot recognize the Jєωιѕн people." -Pope St. Pius X

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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: CONCLUSIONS to Personal Position on Pope Poll
    « Reply #26 on: May 27, 2018, 10:40:02 AM »
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  • I am not nothing like the Dimond folks, nor do I condemn anyone. I am only positing logical Catholic answers.
    Have a blessed Sunday.


    Quote
    It's cut and dry. When you recognize a Pope, you are bound to his decrees, teachings, ... etc. One can't syphon what one deems to be Catholic.



    So what do you say about those who do "siphon" -- I think you mean sift -- what one deems to be Catholic? In other words, Catholics holding to the R&R position?

    As I pointed out, if you really mean "cut and dry" or "cut and dried", we have a problem. Because my conclusion would then hold (that many/most R&R are malicious) because many/most of us profess that we are NOT in ignorance.
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