Author Topic: Christopher Hitchens dead (Read 5090 times)

Anthem · « **on:** December 16, 2011, 08:47:06 AM »

So, the famous atheist Christopher Hitchens died yesterday of cancer attributed to his smoking and drinking habits. He had an odd combination of political and social views -- some with which the "right" would agree and some (most?) that catered to the "left". Overall, he espoused almost no views with which a traditional Catholic could agree. He was an the definition of an anti-Catholic.

Here is the wiki article on him:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Hitchens

s2srea · « **Reply #1 on:** December 16, 2011, 08:57:51 AM »

May God have mercy on his soul...

Sigismund · « **Reply #2 on:** December 16, 2011, 09:02:52 AM »

Indeed.

Anthem · « **Reply #3 on:** December 16, 2011, 09:04:40 AM »

Quote from: s2srea

May God have mercy on his soul...

Hitchens will definitely need it.

nadieimportante · « **Reply #4 on:** December 16, 2011, 09:17:25 AM »

No one should wish hell on even their own worst enemy, since it is eternal.

I hope that Christopher Hitchens converted before his death, for if he died an athiest, he is now without a doubt in hell. He now knows the truth.

The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Blessed Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

“It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.

Roland Deschain · « **Reply #5 on:** December 16, 2011, 09:25:17 AM »

Quote from: nadieimportante

No one should wish hell on even their own worst enemy, since it is eternal.

I hope that Christopher Hitchens converted before his death, for if he died an athiest, he is now without a doubt in hell. He now knows the truth.

The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Blessed Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

“It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.

Confucius lived before Christ. What is the traditional teaching on those who followed Natural Law but died before the Incarnation?

Regarding Hitchens: I always felt more pity for him then anger. I really hope his last thoughts were of repentance.

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #6 on:** December 16, 2011, 10:15:31 AM »

Quote from: nadieimportante

I hope that Christopher Hitchens converted before his death, for if he died an athiest, he is now without a doubt in hell. He now knows the truth.

Did you mean he is undoubtably in hell, or he is in hell, without a doubt? Or did you mean both?

:wink:

pax · « **Reply #7 on:** December 16, 2011, 10:21:45 AM »

Quote from: nadieimportante

No one should wish hell on even their own worst enemy, since it is eternal.

I hope that Christopher Hitchens converted before his death, for if he died an athiest, he is now without a doubt in hell. He now knows the truth.

The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Blessed Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

“It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.

I wish I could muster up even a faint hope that Hitchens converted before death. But we must ask ourselves: Why would God show such mercy to one of His avowed enemies in such a way as did not make His glory manifest before all those whom Hitchens lead astray? Rather, His glory would seem to me to be more properly manifested by Hitchens being in hell. Sorry, Chyristopher, but it is not as if you were never given any opportunity.

sedetrad · « **Reply #8 on:** December 16, 2011, 11:15:01 AM »

I guess it is possible he could have had a perfect act of contrition before he died. Is it probable that an avowed enemy of Christ and his Church did so? In all the books that I have read about the moment close to death, the authors have stated that it is a moment of terror and crisis. The reprobate are often surrounded by demons and the elect have the comfort of the saints and Our Lady before they pass to purgatory or heaven. I can't remember which book I read the above. Can anyone help me?

sedetrad · « **Reply #9 on:** December 16, 2011, 11:17:03 AM »

He was not much older than my father when he died and I consider my father still fairly young for an old man. My father doesn't smoke and runs daily so his appearance is good for his age. The over indulgence in alcohol will get you in the end.

Vladimir · « **Reply #10 on:** December 16, 2011, 11:28:09 AM »

Quote from: Roland Deschain

Quote from: nadieimportante
No one should wish hell on even their own worst enemy, since it is eternal.

I hope that Christopher Hitchens converted before his death, for if he died an athiest, he is now without a doubt in hell. He now knows the truth.

The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Blessed Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

“It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.

Confucius lived before Christ. What is the traditional teaching on those who followed Natural Law but died before the Incarnation?

Since Israel was a type of the Church, doesn't that mean that except for the Israelites no one was saved?

Alexandre de Rhodes forbid Vietnamese converts to venerate Confucius and apply to him the title of "thanh nhan" ("Holy Man" or "Sage", i.e. Saint). I read in a book that a saint said that Aristotle and Seneca were in Hell.

Interesting question though. Hope someone can answer it.

sedetrad · « **Reply #11 on:** December 16, 2011, 11:32:19 AM »

I thought that some of the "good" pagans that lived according to natural law before Christ did end up in heaven?

sedetrad · « **Reply #12 on:** December 16, 2011, 11:33:45 AM »

Quote

Code: [Select]
I read in a book that a saint said that Aristotle and Seneca were in Hell.

Do you remember which book?

Man of the West · « **Reply #13 on:** December 16, 2011, 02:13:46 PM »

Quote

“It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.

Pope St. Pius X put this teaching exactly the way it needed to be put. Note that he did not say that Confucius was definitely in hell. He said that it is not allowed to affirm that he was saved, which is really quite natural when you think about it. There is no authority upon which we could declare that Confucius is in heaven, since the only thing we know about the state of his soul is that he was formally outside the Church. It would be a strange thing indeed for a Christian to just unilaterally decree that Confucius is among the ranks of the just. There is no basis for such an affirmation.

We are permitted to hope for it, though. Perhaps God extended His grace to Confucius by a special act of mercy which He has declined to reveal to us and has never covenanted with us. It is not out of the realm of possibility. However, the second sentence in Pius' reply remains in effect. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned. This is a truism: infidels are damned eo ipso. This is not only an analytical necessity, but it also follows from everything that has been revealed to us concerning original sin. The only question that remains is whether Confucius really was an infidel properly so called, or if he was included in the Church in some nebulous, mystical sense due to his great love of natural virtue. There is no way to settle this question within the confines of time. It will remain unanswerable until the End, when all things are made known. Therefore Pius' answer is the right one.

I personally believe that Confucius, Seneca, Aristotle, and the other virtuous pagans, will repose eternally in a limbo where they suffer no pains of sense. The souls of unbaptized infants are in a similar place. I believe they are really quite happy there, since they will never fully understand what they are missing. The Beatific Vision is not something we can really desire with our own natural faculties. The virtuous pagans have already gotten the highest reward they were capable of imagining for themselves -- the eternal contemplation of natural truth.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 16, 2011, 02:15:02 PM »

sedetrad said:

Quote

I thought that some of the "good" pagans that lived according to natural law before Christ did end up in heaven?

It is certainly permissible to speculate that they did, or that they had some kind of foreshadowing or inkling of the Redeemer to come.

Which shows that once again the Feeneyites are failing to read in the spirit of God. The line about Confucius says we cannot AFFIRM that someone like that was saved. The clear sense of the line was to stop that creeping indifferentism whereby Catholics say of Protestant relatives who died, atheists, whoever, that they're at peace or in heaven. This indifferentism renders the faith pointless, negates the sacrifice of Christ -- since it means you don't need to have even an implicit desire to serve Him as He will be served -- and could not be more heretical, in its well-meaning dippy way. I'm sure everyone here has experienced that form of sentimental mental rot, and I'm sure it was epidemic around the time of Pius X also.

It then says that we must say infidels are damned. I doubt anyone would argue that an infidel, being of his very nature unrepentant, would be damned. But if someone like Confucius did have an inkling of Christ; he wouldn't be an infidel.

Unless you think what this is saying is "Confucius is damned," and that the writers of this docuмent were binding the Church to a belief that Confucius is damned... When was the last time you saw the Church solemnly pronounce that we must believe a certain individual is damned? That was not the point of this, despite the wishful thinking of the Feeneyites. You have to ask yourself, why was this said? What was the warning being given?