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Offline Malleus

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Chastity in non-Catholics
« on: February 10, 2015, 10:08:05 AM »
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  • It is a basic teaching that no one can be chaste if he does not ask it of God, and that no one can maintain himself chaste unless he prays at the moment he is being tempted etc.

    So what are we to think of all those non-Catholics who are apparently chaste but never ask for it or who don't even pray? What about Buddhists even? Supposedly they despise all pleasures and are chaste, and yet they don't even believe in the true God.

    Are we to believe Buddhists for example, are not chaste even though they may claim to be?

    Offline Miseremini

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    Chastity in non-Catholics
    « Reply #1 on: February 10, 2015, 10:47:29 AM »
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  • From where do you get this "basic teaching" ?

    True, we can do nothing without the grace of God,  but we teach children self control before they are even able to grasp the meaning of praying for help associated with an action.

    All non Catholics still have a conscience:  they know right from wrong and are able to practice self control.

     :geezer:
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Offline Matto

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    Chastity in non-Catholics
    « Reply #2 on: February 10, 2015, 10:57:23 AM »
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  • Quote from: Malleus
    It is a basic teaching that no one can be chaste if he does not ask it of God, and that no one can maintain himself chaste unless he prays at the moment he is being tempted etc.


    I never heard of this basic teaching. Does that mean that everyone who is non-Catholic has no morals and fornicates and commits adultery all the time. No, I don't believe it. Some people who do not have the faith still follow their consciences and avoid sexual perversions. I am sure it is harder for them to remain chaste without the faith, but I  don't believe it is impossible. I think it is like saying all non-Catholics are thieves.
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    Offline Malleus

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    Chastity in non-Catholics
    « Reply #3 on: February 10, 2015, 11:25:21 AM »
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  • What, you both have never read "Prayer the Great Means of Salvation" by St. Alphonsus?

    Quote
    Prayer Great Means of Salvation, Chapter 1 point 2:

    It is especially to be remarked, that no one can resist the impure temptations of the flesh, without recommending himself to God when he is tempted.

    This foe is so terrible that, when he fights with us, he, as it were, takes away all light; he makes us forget all our meditations, all our good resolutions; he makes us also disregard the truths of faith, and even almost lose the fear of the Divine punishments. For he conspires with our natural inclinations, which drive us with the greatest violence to the indulgence of sensual pleasures; he who in such a moment does not have recourse to God is lost. The only defence against this temptation is prayer, as St. Gregory of Nyssa says: "Prayer is the bulwark of chastity;" and before him Solomon: "And as I knew that I could not otherwise be continent except God gave it, I went to the Lord and besought Him." [Wisd. 8: 21] Chastity is a virtue which we have not strength to practice, unless God gives it us; and God does not give this strength except to him who asks for it. But whoever prays for it will certainly obtain it.

    Offline Matto

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    Chastity in non-Catholics
    « Reply #4 on: February 10, 2015, 01:39:42 PM »
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  • I have never read that book. If what you quoted was strictly true then it means that it is impossible to resist an impure temptation without praying to God. Therefore not only are all non Catholics not chaste, but they would go along with every single impure temptation they are ever faced with no matter what all the time. So whenever they see a girl they find attractive they will give in to the temptation to rape her without fail.
    In a Station of the Metro
    The apparition of these faces in the crowd;
    Petals on a wet, black bough.


    Offline Miseremini

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    Chastity in non-Catholics
    « Reply #5 on: February 10, 2015, 01:39:47 PM »
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  • I really admire, and read often, St. Alphonsus BUT...he is not infallible.

    Reading your quote, I can just visuallize someone saying, "I prayed and God didn't stop the temptation so it's not my fault it's God's that I sinned"

    Sorry but for Catholics this sounds like a way to avoid all guilt.
    It was bad enough when someone said "the devil made me do it"  now it sounds like
    "God let me do it"

     :geezer:
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline Malleus

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    Chastity in non-Catholics
    « Reply #6 on: February 10, 2015, 02:16:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    I have never read that book. If what you quoted was strictly true then it means that it is impossible to resist an impure temptation without praying to God.


    Well this is the very thing St. Alphonsus and all the other Fathers, Saints etc. have taught. He indeed said it, you can check it out for yourself here: http://www.catholictreasury.info/books/prayer/pr3.php

    Quote from: Matto
    Therefore not only are all non Catholics not chaste, but they would go along with every single impure temptation they are ever faced with no matter what all the time. So whenever they see a girl they find attractive they will give in to the temptation to rape her without fail.


    Well this is why i made the thread because this is what i was wondering.

    Offline Malleus

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    Chastity in non-Catholics
    « Reply #7 on: February 10, 2015, 02:20:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: Miseremini
    I really admire, and read often, St. Alphonsus BUT...he is not infallible.

    Reading your quote, I can just visuallize someone saying, "I prayed and God didn't stop the temptation so it's not my fault it's God's that I sinned"

    Sorry but for Catholics this sounds like a way to avoid all guilt.
    It was bad enough when someone said "the devil made me do it"  now it sounds like
    "God let me do it"

     :geezer:


    Wow, I would say what you wrote here is very temerarious and rash, and that you haven't read his book.

    You think St. Alphonsus made up what I quoted? All the Fathers taught it. Our Lord Himself taught it. Without Me, ye can do nothing. St. Augustine said the same.

    Read the chapter here: http://www.catholictreasury.info/books/prayer/pr3.php


    Offline Nadir

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    Chastity in non-Catholics
    « Reply #8 on: February 10, 2015, 03:28:05 PM »
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  • There is such a thing as the law which is written on the heart of every human being. Sometimes it is called Natural Law.

    We also have common laws which are laid down by societies in order to make them workable.

    It is of course true that we need God's help to remain chaste. Maybe you are confusing the word "chastity" which is a Christian virtue, with what the mores of particular society implement in order to have an orderly society, by keeping family units intact etc.

    In short, members of society generally conform to the mores of their particular society and from time  immemorial there have been restrictions on what is allowed and what is not.

    Where did you get the idea that  
     
    Quote
    Buddhists .... despise all pleasures

    Offline Malleus

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    Chastity in non-Catholics
    « Reply #9 on: February 10, 2015, 03:48:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nadir
    It is of course true that we need God's help to remain chaste. Maybe you are confusing the word "chastity" which is a Christian virtue, with what the mores of particular society implement in order to have an orderly society, by keeping family units intact etc.


    What's the difference between being chaste and the virtue of chastity? Are they not the same thing?

    Quote from: Nadir
    In short, members of society generally conform to the mores of their particular society and from time immemorial there have been restrictions on what is allowed and what is not.


    I'm not referring to public crimes like rape etc. I mean being chaste in mind as well.

    Quote from: Nadir
    Where did you get the idea that  
     
    Quote
    Buddhists .... despise all pleasures


    I read it in the article on contemplation in the Catholic Encyclopedia I think and elsewhere. They attempt to reach the state of "nothingness" by refraining from all pleasures and things or something like that.

    Offline Miseremini

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    Chastity in non-Catholics
    « Reply #10 on: February 10, 2015, 04:44:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: Malleus
    Quote from: Miseremini
    I really admire, and read often, St. Alphonsus BUT...he is not infallible.

    Reading your quote, I can just visuallize someone saying, "I prayed and God didn't stop the temptation so it's not my fault it's God's that I sinned"

    Sorry but for Catholics this sounds like a way to avoid all guilt.
    It was bad enough when someone said "the devil made me do it"  now it sounds like
    "God let me do it"

     :geezer:


    Wow, I would say what you wrote here is very temerarious and rash, and that you haven't read his book.

    You think St. Alphonsus made up what I quoted? All the Fathers taught it. Our Lord Himself taught it. Without Me, ye can do nothing. St. Augustine said the same.

    Read the chapter here: http://www.catholictreasury.info/books/prayer/pr3.php


    You are absolutely right, I didn't read his book.  I was responding ONLY to what you quoted.

    Here is also a quote for you.

    2 Corinthians Chapter 12 Verses 7-9 (Last Sunday's Epistle)

     V7 "there was given me a sting of my flesh, an angel of Satan, to buffet me.
    V8  For which thing thrice I besought the Lord, that it might depart from me.
    V9  And he said to me:  My grace is sufficient for thee:  for power is made perfect in infirmity.


     :geezer:
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Offline Nadir

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    Chastity in non-Catholics
    « Reply #11 on: February 10, 2015, 07:18:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: Malleus
    Quote from: Nadir
    It is of course true that we need God's help to remain chaste. Maybe you are confusing the word "chastity" which is a Christian virtue, with what the mores of particular society implement in order to have an orderly society, by keeping family units intact etc.


    What's the difference between being chaste and the virtue of chastity? Are they not the same thing?

    You didn't read what I wrote. The difference I referred to is chastity being a different thing from the laws which govern a society and thus its individual members to keep them on the straight and narrow.

    Quote from: Nadir
    In short, members of society generally conform to the mores of their particular society and from time immemorial there have been restrictions on what is allowed and what is not.


    I'm not referring to public crimes like rape etc. I mean being chaste in mind as well.

    Neither did I mention rape. You asked about non-Catholic religions or pagans. Being chaste in mind is a prerequisite to being chaste in body. Natural law is all that these others non-Catholics and pagans have. Nevertheless they are able to discern what is right and wrong with the law that is written on their hearts, not their minds, but in their HEARTS.


    Offline Malleus

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    Chastity in non-Catholics
    « Reply #12 on: February 10, 2015, 07:53:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nadir
    Quote from: Malleus
    Quote from: Nadir
    It is of course true that we need God's help to remain chaste. Maybe you are confusing the word "chastity" which is a Christian virtue, with what the mores of particular society implement in order to have an orderly society, by keeping family units intact etc.


    What's the difference between being chaste and the virtue of chastity? Are they not the same thing?

    You didn't read what I wrote. The difference I referred to is chastity being a different thing from the laws which govern a society and thus its individual members to keep them on the straight and narrow.

    Quote from: Nadir
    In short, members of society generally conform to the mores of their particular society and from time immemorial there have been restrictions on what is allowed and what is not.


    I'm not referring to public crimes like rape etc. I mean being chaste in mind as well.

    Neither did I mention rape. You asked about non-Catholic religions or pagans. Being chaste in mind is a prerequisite to being chaste in body. Natural law is all that these others non-Catholics and pagans have. Nevertheless they are able to discern what is right and wrong with the law that is written on their hearts, not their minds, but in their HEARTS.



    I'm not dealing with discernment of right or wrong, but with being actually chaste.

    Offline poche

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    Chastity in non-Catholics
    « Reply #13 on: February 10, 2015, 11:10:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: Malleus
    It is a basic teaching that no one can be chaste if he does not ask it of God, and that no one can maintain himself chaste unless he prays at the moment he is being tempted etc.

    So what are we to think of all those non-Catholics who are apparently chaste but never ask for it or who don't even pray? What about Buddhists even? Supposedly they despise all pleasures and are chaste, and yet they don't even believe in the true God.

    Are we to believe Buddhists for example, are not chaste even though they may claim to be?

    In these cases St Paul wrote about those who are not circumcised yet follow the law better than the Jews in his letter to the Romans.  

    Offline poche

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    Chastity in non-Catholics
    « Reply #14 on: February 10, 2015, 11:12:09 PM »
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  • Quote from: Malleus
    It is a basic teaching that no one can be chaste if he does not ask it of God, and that no one can maintain himself chaste unless he prays at the moment he is being tempted etc.

    So what are we to think of all those non-Catholics who are apparently chaste but never ask for it or who don't even pray? What about Buddhists even? Supposedly they despise all pleasures and are chaste, and yet they don't even believe in the true God.

    Are we to believe Buddhists for example, are not chaste even though they may claim to be?

    It could be that they have these virtues because the Devil doesn't see a need to tempt them.  

     

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