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Author Topic: Catholic Voting Guide  (Read 23014 times)

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Catholic Voting Guide
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2016, 05:39:14 PM »
Quote from: Graham
s
Quote from: Nadir
Quote from: Graham
Quote from: Nadir
MaterDomenici asked:
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Now, is there any other issue in which it could also be said that no amount of good would compensate for the evil inherent in supporting the position?


I would say, yes, there other issues which are crucial.

I would absolutely deny my vote to those persons who support the reign of terror which Israel exerts over the Palestinians and other nations, those who support and enforce compulsory vaccination, and would deny the right of parents to educate their own children, or enforce sex education thus defiling the innocence of children, whose parents are unable to educate their own.

Those few issues are off the top of my head; I guess there must be others.


I think that tightening immigration, regulating the financial sector, limiting foreign wars, and keeping jobs in your country are of more immediate concern than most of those issues, except the right to homeschool. Which is not to denigrate your issues at all, I believe in them as well, I just think the ones I listed must be solved immediately throughout the West, because we are all one stop from the end of the line and saving Palestinians just isn't issue #1. But Americans I think have a candidate this time who is relatively good on a majority of both sets of issues and is also proving electable.


Yes, all those issues you mention, Graham, were at the back of my mind, but like MD I think that moral issues are too important to put lower than economic ones.


If by moral issues you mean abortion, then I agree. But you were talking about "other issues [besides abortion] which are crucial," and I think the ones you identified are just not as crucial as the ones I did.

Besides, the issues I mentioned are moral issues. Sending people to kill and die in the Middle East is a moral issue. Undercutting American wages and off-shoring jobs, preventing fathers from being able to provide, are moral issues. Letting dangerous foreigners into the country is a moral issue.

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Why did you write "Pacelli said"?  I mean is Pacelli a poster here? or a poster on Bellarmine Forums? Or is he Pope Piu XII? because it's pretty obvious he is not the writer of that passage you quoted. Can you clarify, please.


Just to credit the poster from whom I got the passage.




Also the shrinking middle class and the inability of decent men to provide for their families should be blamed on large business outsourcing to foreign nations and Uncle Sam giving the keys to the country to these corporations.

Catholic Voting Guide
« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2016, 06:30:13 PM »
Quote from: Graham


Besides, the issues I mentioned are moral issues. Sending people to kill and die in the Middle East is a moral issue. Undercutting American wages and off-shoring jobs, preventing fathers from being able to provide, are moral issues. Letting dangerous foreigners into the country is a moral issue.

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Why did you write "Pacelli said"?  I mean is Pacelli a poster here? or a poster on Bellarmine Forums? Or is he Pope Piu XII? because it's pretty obvious he is not the writer of that passage you quoted. Can you clarify, please.


Just to credit the poster from whom I got the passage.


I agree with all you say here.
Thanks for clearing up the Pacelli question.


Offline Ladislaus

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Catholic Voting Guide
« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2016, 07:41:01 PM »
This is clearly an area of Catholic theology that has been underdeveloped.  Some distinctions are not properly explored.

Let's look at a candidate who's running for county dog catcher.  He happens to be Pro Abortion.  Is it permitted to vote for such a person because you think he'd be the best dog catcher of all the candidates on the ballot?  While I had written about the principle of double effect, voting for this ProAbort dog catcher would have zero practical effect vis-a-vis abortion itself, since this person would not have the authority to further any of his perverse beliefs in his capacity as dog catcher.  Yet one of the Catholic theologians cited stated that one can never vote for a candidate of bad principles.  One what grounds?  Due to scandal?  Well, nobody has to know who we voted for.

Let's look at the Presidential race.  Let's say that one candidate is Pro Life, the other Pro Abortion.  One could very safely conclude that NEITHER of these candidates will do anything practical one way or the other regarding the issue of abortion.  So what if on this basis you ignore the abortion issue and vote based on other issues where you conclude that the candidate may actually have some power?

So the interplay between principles and anticipated PRACTICAL effect of one's vote can be rather complex.  Catholic theologians need to explore this more in depth.

Then there's "waste your vote" thinking.  Let's say that there are three candidates, two from the major parties and a third party candidate.  Let's say the third party candidate is a "worthy" candidate but the other two are not.  But this third party candidate is polling in the single digits and has no shot to win.  Are you obliged to vote for this third party candidate?  Or would you say that by "wasting" your vote you would be enabling the less worthy candidate to succeed?

All of this goes back to an understanding of what "voting" actually means.  Voting is more than just a pragmatic exercise.  I will never vote for an unworthy candidate due to pragmatic thinking.  Voting involves an endorsement and in a sense a material empowerment of the candidate.  And it all goes back to the nature of "authority".  By voting we materially designate the holders of authority, whereas the authority itself formally comes from God.  No holder of authority should ever be someone who's positively offensive to God, because in holding authority they represent God in society.  Consequently, it's a direct insult to God to vote for such a one, even a Pro Abortion dog catcher or mayor or city councilman.

Catholic Voting Guide
« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2016, 07:09:53 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus
Let's look at a candidate who's running for county dog catcher.  He happens to be Pro Abortion.  Is it permitted to vote for such a person because you think he'd be the best dog catcher of all the candidates on the ballot?  While I had written about the principle of double effect, voting for this ProAbort dog catcher would have zero practical effect vis-a-vis abortion itself, since this person would not have the authority to further any of his perverse beliefs in his capacity as dog catcher.  Yet one of the Catholic theologians cited stated that one can never vote for a candidate of bad principles.  One what grounds?  Due to scandal? Well, nobody has to know who we voted for.


The theologian in fact stated "that it is never allowed to vote absolutely for a man of evil principles, but [hypothetically] it may be allowed if the election is between men of evil principles."

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Let's look at the Presidential race.  Let's say that one candidate is Pro Life, the other Pro Abortion.  One could very safely conclude that NEITHER of these candidates will do anything practical one way or the other regarding the issue of abortion.  So what if on this basis you ignore the abortion issue and vote based on other issues where you conclude that the candidate may actually have some power?

So the interplay between principles and anticipated PRACTICAL effect of one's vote can be rather complex.  Catholic theologians need to explore this more in depth.


Yes, I'd like them to look into that too. It seems like the sort of interplay that would be too contingent to deal with in a book, but we could see at least some recognition of it.

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Then there's "waste your vote" thinking.  Let's say that there are three candidates, two from the major parties and a third party candidate.  Let's say the third party candidate is a "worthy" candidate but the other two are not.  But this third party candidate is polling in the single digits and has no shot to win.  Are you obliged to vote for this third party candidate?  Or would you say that by "wasting" your vote you would be enabling the less worthy candidate to succeed?


The work I quoted does cover this:

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Cardinal Amette, Archbishop of Paris, implies the liceity of voting for an unworthy candidate when he writes of voting for a less worthy one. “It would be lawful to cast them,” he writes,” for candidates who though not giving complete satisfaction to all our legitimate demands, would lead us to expect from them a line of conduct useful to the country, rather than to keep your votes for those whose program would indeed be more perfect, but whose almost certain defeat might open the door to the enemies of religion and of the social order.” [187]

Thus we may say that it is permitted to vote for unworthy candidates (that is, give material cooperation) if these are the only type of men on the ballot lists; in order to exclude the more unworthy; in order to secure the election of one who is somewhat unworthy instead of voting for a good man whose defeat is certain; and when the list is mixed containing both worthy and unworthy men, so that a citizen can vote for the former only by voting for the latter at the same time.


Quote from: Ladislaus
All of this goes back to an understanding of what "voting" actually means.  Voting is more than just a pragmatic exercise.  I will never vote for an unworthy candidate due to pragmatic thinking.  Voting involves an endorsement and in a sense a material empowerment of the candidate.  And it all goes back to the nature of "authority".  By voting we materially designate the holders of authority, whereas the authority itself formally comes from God.  No holder of authority should ever be someone who's positively offensive to God, because in holding authority they represent God in society.  Consequently, it's a direct insult to God to vote for such a one, even a Pro Abortion dog catcher or mayor or city councilman.


The Catholic theologians don't agree with you. Sorry. You're free to abstain though, if your conscience so dictates.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Catholic Voting Guide
« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2016, 07:22:07 PM »
Quote from: Graham
Quote from: Ladislaus
Let's look at a candidate who's running for county dog catcher.  He happens to be Pro Abortion.  Is it permitted to vote for such a person because you think he'd be the best dog catcher of all the candidates on the ballot?  While I had written about the principle of double effect, voting for this ProAbort dog catcher would have zero practical effect vis-a-vis abortion itself, since this person would not have the authority to further any of his perverse beliefs in his capacity as dog catcher.  Yet one of the Catholic theologians cited stated that one can never vote for a candidate of bad principles.  One what grounds?  Due to scandal? Well, nobody has to know who we voted for.


The theologian in fact stated "that it is never allowed to vote absolutely for a man of evil principles, but [hypothetically] it may be allowed if the election is between men of evil principles."


He never explained why.  And if it's allowed under some circuмstances, then why?  There's no explanation of the principles involved.