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Author Topic: Catholic dogma on salvation  (Read 8279 times)

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Offline Ovenbird

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Catholic dogma on salvation
« on: June 08, 2018, 12:26:28 AM »
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  • It is a defined Catholic Dogma that to be saved you must be inside the Catholic Church.

    Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
    The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jєωs or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

    Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra (quoting Athanasian Creed):

    “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity...This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”

    How does one enter the Church?

    Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439:  
    “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church.  And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5].  The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.”

    This is the infallible teaching of the Catholic Church. Since the infallible dogmas of the Catholic Church is the dogmas the Apostles of Christ believed, here is a couple Bible verses which further uphold this dogma.

    Mark 16:16
    "He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned."

    2 Corinthians 4:3-5
    "And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, [4] In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them. [5] For we preach not ourselves, but Jesus Christ our Lord; and ourselves your servants through Jesus."

    Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Against the Heresies, Angelus Press [SSPX], p. 216: 
    “Evidently, certain distinctions must be made. Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion.”

    Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9):
    “No one who merely disbelieves in all (these heresies) can for that reason regard himself as a Catholic or call himself one. For there may be or arise some other heresies, which are not set out in this work of ours, and, if any one holds to one single one of these he is not a Catholic.”

    This is irrefutable.


    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #1 on: June 08, 2018, 02:37:00 AM »
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  • No one disagrees that there is no salvation outside the Church. The question is "Who is a member of the Church?" What Popes and councils said on this question has to be interpreted in context, and it's not a matter of private judgment. The dogma must be understood in the way the Church understands it. I highly recommend "The Catholic Church and Salvation" by Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton on this topic. 
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9


    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #2 on: June 08, 2018, 06:12:17 AM »
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  • No one disagrees that there is no salvation outside the Church. The question is "Who is a member of the Church?" What Popes and councils said on this question has to be interpreted in context, and it's not a matter of private judgment. The dogma must be understood in the way the Church understands it. I highly recommend "The Catholic Church and Salvation" by Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton on this topic.
    Give an example of the Church declaring anything that is not understood as declared. Also, what do you mean when you say "the Church".  

    It is the explicit teaching of the First Vatican Council "that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church". The widely promoted idea that dogma can only be understood as the Church herself understands it is not only entirely ambiguous, it is a terrible corruption of the clear teaching of V1.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #3 on: June 08, 2018, 06:53:29 AM »
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  • Quote
    Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
    The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jєωs or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life

    Quote
    Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Against the Heresies, Angelus Press [SSPX], p. 216: 
    “Evidently, certain distinctions must be made. Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion.”

    It should only take these quotes side by side to make it obvious to all that the SSPX is wrong on BOD. And yet they still hold onto it dearly and pump out book after book trying to justify it. 

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #4 on: June 08, 2018, 06:51:44 PM »
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  • Quote
    The question is "Who is a member of the Church?"

    A member of the Church is a validly sacramentally baptized Roman Catholic who does not have the misfortune to leave via heresy, apostasy, or schism.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #5 on: June 08, 2018, 07:18:16 PM »
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  • You are seemingly upholding the SSPX position. You therefore would have to absurdly hold that unbaptized pagans who have not the faith are members of the Catholic Church and are saved by BOD. That is blatant nonsense.

    Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943:  
    “Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith.”

    Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio (# 2), May 27, 1832:
    “Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.”

    Leo XII, Ubi Primum (# 14), May 5, 1824:
    It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members… by divine faith we hold one Lord, one faith, one baptism… This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church.”

    Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208:
    “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”

    Pius IX, Syllabus of Modern Errors, Dec. 8, 1864 - Proposition 16:
    “Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation.” – Condemned

    Pius IX, Nostis et Nobiscuм (# 10), Dec. 8, 1849:
    “In particular, ensure that the faithful are deeply and thoroughly convinced of the truth of the doctrine that the Catholic faith is necessary for attaining salvation."

    Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 11), Jan. 6, 1928:  
    The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship.  This is the fount of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation.”

    Pius X, Iucunda sane (# 9), March 12, 1904:
    “Yet at the same time We cannot but remind all, great and small, as Pope St. Gregory did, of the absolute necessity of having recourse to this Church in order to have eternal salvation…”

    I could quote much more. It is the unanimous teachings of the true Popes that condemns the SSPX.
    First, there is no "SSPX position" I am a member of the SSPX, and people within the Society hold different views on this. 

    I do not believe that a non-baptized pagan can be saved. One must be validly baptized and at least hold to the Nicene Creed to be saved. 
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #6 on: June 08, 2018, 07:20:34 PM »
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  • A member of the Church is a validly sacramentally baptized Roman Catholic who does not have the misfortune to leave via heresy, apostasy, or schism.
    Feeneyism has been condemned by the Holy Office. I highly recommend Msgr. Fenton's commentary on the condemnation of the Feeneyites  
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Ovenbird

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #7 on: June 08, 2018, 07:25:34 PM »
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  • A member of the Church is a validly sacramentally baptized Roman Catholic who does not have the misfortune to leave via heresy, apostasy, or schism.
    Absolutely correct.


    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #8 on: June 08, 2018, 07:29:43 PM »
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  • Absolutely correct.
    That is Feeneyism and has been condemned
    https://exlaodicea.wordpress.com/2005/12/13/condemnation-of-fr-leonard-feeney-2/
    By the way, if you're a Sedevacantist, you are a schismatic. So you better hope some schismatic can be saved
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #9 on: June 08, 2018, 07:32:05 PM »
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  • So you reject the position of the SSPX yet you adhere to them. You are in a non-Catholic sect and must leave it.
    The SSPX DOES NOT have an official position on this. I recently spoke to a SSPX seminary professor/priest who hold the same view as I.
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #10 on: June 08, 2018, 07:51:10 PM »
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  • You pretty much said the same thing. You replaced Roman Catholic with "at least hold to the Nicene Creed". You seem to be confused. Sedevacantism is the Catholic position. The Church has infallibly taught that heretics can not hold offices in the Church. To reject sedevacantism is to either hold that the post-Vatican II claimants to the papacy are not heretics (an idea that is indefensible) or hold that heretics can hold offices in the Catholic Church (an idea which is indefensible).

    cuм ex Apostolatus Officio Apostolic Constitution of Pope Paul IV, 15th February 1559 (Roman Bullarium Vol. IV. Sec. I, pp. 354-357)
    "In addition, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity We enact, determine, decree and define:-] that if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop, even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate, or even the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy:
    (i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless;
    (ii) it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity) through the acceptance of the office, of consecration, of subsequent authority, nor through possession of administration, nor through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff, or Veneration, or obedience accorded to such by all, nor through the lapse of any period of time in the foregoing situation;
    (iii) it shall not be held as partially legitimate in any way;
    (iv) to any so promoted to be Bishops, or Archbishops, or Patriarchs, or Primates or elevated as Cardinals, or as Roman Pontiff, no authority shall have been granted, nor shall it be considered to have been so granted either in the spiritual or the temporal domain;
    (v) each and all of their words, deeds, actions and enactments, howsoever made, and anything whatsoever to which these may give rise, shall be without force and shall grant no stability whatsoever nor any right to anyone;
    (vi) those thus promoted or elevated shall be deprived automatically, and without need for any further declaration, of all dignity, position, honour, title, authority, office and power."
    No, you are confused. I said that a validly baptized person( that is, Catholic, Orthodox/schismatic , Protestant) who holds to at least the Nicene Creed can be saved
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9


    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #11 on: June 08, 2018, 08:02:24 PM »
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  • Then you are ignorant of the teachings of your false sect. Your founder taught the heresy I am condemning.

    Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Against the Heresies, Angelus Press [SSPX], p. 216:
    “Evidently, certain distinctions must be made. Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion.”

    Your current heretical leader teaches the same.

    Bishop Bernard Fellay, Conference in Denver, Co., Feb. 18, 2006:
    “… And the Church has always taught that you have people who will be in Heaven, who are in the state of grace, who have been saved without knowing the Catholic Church. We know this. And yet, how is it possible if you cannot be saved outside the Church? It is absolutely true that they will be saved through the Catholic Church because they will be united to Christ, to the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. It will, however, remain invisible, because this visible link is impossible for them. Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to Heaven.” (The Angelus, “A Talk Heard Round the World,” April, 2006, p. 5.)
    That is Msgr. Lefebvre Personal position. It's not binding on anyone. So which group are you a part of? CMRI? Sanborn/Dolan's group?
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Ovenbird

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #12 on: June 08, 2018, 08:04:33 PM »
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  • No, you are confused. I said that a validly baptized person( that is, Catholic, Orthodox/schismatic , Protestant) who holds to at least the Nicene Creed can be saved
    I can't read your mind. You are definitely confused because you reject what your SSPX leaders say yet you adhere to them. You do the same with the Vatican II Church. It is a heretical position to adhere to heretics. I interpreted "at least holds to the Nicene Creed" to mean that is the minimum requirement to be a Roman Catholic, the basic dogmas. Others say the Trinity and the Incarnation is the basic dogmas and the other Roman Catholic dogmas are known as deeper dogmas that require pertinacity if one contradicts them. So now I know what you mean by that. You are still a heretic who says heretics can go to heaven.

    Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio (# 2), May 27, 1832:
    “Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.”

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #13 on: June 08, 2018, 08:08:09 PM »
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  • I can't read your mind. You are definitely confused because you reject what your SSPX leaders say yet you adhere to them. You do the same with the Vatican II Church. It is a heretical position to adhere to heretics. I interpreted "at least holds to the Nicene Creed" to mean that is the minimum requirement to be a Roman Catholic, the basic dogmas. Others say the Trinity and the Incarnation is the basic dogmas and the other Roman Catholic dogmas are known as deeper dogmas that require pertinacity if one contradicts them. So now I know what you mean by that. You are still a heretic who says heretics can go to heaven.

    Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio (# 2), May 27, 1832:
    “Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.”
    A seminary professor/priest of the SSPX holds the same view as me. There is no official position. How many times do I have to say it?  Material heretics can be saved. 
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #14 on: June 08, 2018, 08:09:27 PM »
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  • That is Feeneyism and has been condemned
    If they are condemned why are they part of the diocese structure and approved by the local bishops and the man you call pope?
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24