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Author Topic: Catholic dogma on salvation  (Read 8286 times)

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Offline Matto

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Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2018, 08:58:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 08, 2018, 07:29:43 PM
    That is Feeneyism and has been condemned
    https://exlaodicea.wordpress.com/2005/12/13/condemnation-of-fr-leonard-feeney-2/
    By the way, if you're a Sedevacantist, you are a schismatic. So you better hope some schismatic can be saved
    I was just talking about this with 2vermont. She asked if I defended sedes when they are attacked as schismatic. I do not think sedes are really schismatic. I think they are just scandalized by Popes who seem to be heretics and are acting rationally. I am really not a sedevacvantist but I understand where they are coming from. There are good non-sede Catholics who are so scandalized by Francis that they are praying for his death. And as far as salvation goes I am not a Feeneyite, but I tend to believe that very few are saved, even among Catholics, and disagree with the opinions of modern theologians from a hundred to sixty years ago that most Christians (including protestants and orthodox) are saved. The great lights of the firmament who shone just a few years before Vatican II.
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    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #31 on: June 08, 2018, 09:00:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ovenbird on June 08, 2018, 08:53:57 PM
    He says that salvation is given to those "beyond the border of the Church". That is heretical. He says Protestants can be of good will, that is heretical. He says Protestants and the "Orthodox" are Christians, that is heretical. He is a heretic. He identifies the "Orthodox" as schismatics and says they can be saved, directly contrary to the Council of Florence.

    Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
    “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jєωs or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
    Go pound sand. You are a heretical Feeneyite and a schismatic. Garrigou was a staunch anti-Modernist and perhaps the last orthodox Thomist. He was Pius XII's closest advisor for many years. Mathew is far too lenient with who he allows on CI 
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #32 on: June 08, 2018, 09:05:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 08, 2018, 02:37:00 AM
    No one disagrees that there is no salvation outside the Church. The question is "Who is a member of the Church?"

    Wrong question.  No one can be member of the Church without Sacramental Baptism.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #33 on: June 08, 2018, 09:07:25 PM »
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    • While not a heretic, Garrigou is flat out wrong about Protestants being in good faith.  They lack the requisite formal motive of faith.
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    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #34 on: June 08, 2018, 09:09:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 08, 2018, 09:05:31 PM
    Wrong question.  No one can be member of the Church without Sacramental Baptism.
    Agreed, and Protestants/Orthodox who are validly baptized are members of the Church
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #35 on: June 08, 2018, 09:21:57 PM »
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    And of course, the Protestants and Orthodox who die validly baptized and holding to the Nicene Creed are saved through the Church. They are members of the Church, not saved outside of it

    What is this?

    Stopping at the Nicene Creed?
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #36 on: June 08, 2018, 09:24:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: trad123 on June 08, 2018, 09:21:57 PM
    What is this?

    Stopping at the Nicene Creed?
    The Nicene Creed contains the essentials of the Christian faith. Without holding to that, one is not even a Christian (let alone a Catholic)
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #37 on: June 08, 2018, 09:27:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 08, 2018, 09:24:03 PM
    The Nicene Creed contains the essentials of the Christian faith. Without holding to that, one is not even a Christian (let alone a Catholic)

    Articles of faith defined at later Councils are necessary to be believed too, at least implicitly. 

    Heretics and schismatics do not have the habit of faith, because they do not have the same rule of faith.
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #38 on: June 08, 2018, 09:29:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: trad123 on June 08, 2018, 09:27:57 PM
    Articles of faith defined at later Councils are necessary to be believed too.
    Yes, for direct members of the Church. The Nicene Creed is the minimum standard for salvation 
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #39 on: June 08, 2018, 09:30:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 08, 2018, 09:29:40 PM
    Yes, for direct members of the Church. The Nicene Creed is the minimum standard for salvation

    What else is there, besides "direct" members?
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #40 on: June 08, 2018, 09:31:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: trad123 on June 08, 2018, 09:30:16 PM
    What else is there, besides "direct" members?
    People who are validly baptized and  material heretics
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Ovenbird

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #41 on: June 08, 2018, 09:33:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 08, 2018, 09:24:03 PM
    The Nicene Creed contains the essentials of the Christian faith. Without holding to that, one is not even a Christian (let alone a Catholic)
    To say the Nicene Creed is the only thing needed to be a Christian and thus denying other things does not render you as a non-Christian is heretical. You don't know fundamental concepts about membership in the Church. Those who deny Catholic teachings are not in the Church.

    Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Bull “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
    “It [the Holy Roman Church] condemns, rejects and anathematizes all who think opposed and contrary things [to the Church], and declares them to be aliens from the Body of Christ, which is the Church.”
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    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #42 on: June 08, 2018, 09:39:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ovenbird on June 08, 2018, 09:33:43 PM
    To say the Nicene Creed is the only thing needed to be a Christian and thus denying other things does not render you as a non-Christian is heretical. You don't know fundamental concepts about membership in the Church. Those who deny Catholic teachings are not in the Church.

    Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Bull “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
    “It [the Holy Roman Church] condemns, rejects and anathematizes all who think opposed and contrary things [to the Church], and declares them to be aliens from the Body of Christ, which is the Church.”
    You are a heretic and a schismatic. Question for you. Do you think non-Sedevacantists are heretics?
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Ovenbird

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #43 on: June 08, 2018, 09:42:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 08, 2018, 09:39:43 PM
    You are a heretic and a schismatic. Question for you. Do you think non-Sedevacantists are heretics?
    Answer my provided quote heretic.

    Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Bull “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
    “It [the Holy Roman Church] condemns, rejects and anathematizes all who think opposed and contrary things [to the Church], and declares them to be aliens from the Body of Christ, which is the Church.”
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    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #44 on: June 08, 2018, 09:45:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ovenbird on June 08, 2018, 09:42:02 PM
    Answer my provided quote heretic.

    Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Bull “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
    “It [the Holy Roman Church] condemns, rejects and anathematizes all who think opposed and contrary things [to the Church], and declares them to be aliens from the Body of Christ, which is the Church.”
    That quote must be understood in the way the Church understands it. Answer my question. Are non-sedes heretics?
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9
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