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Author Topic: Catholic dogma on salvation  (Read 8291 times)

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Offline Ovenbird

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Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2018, 08:11:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 08, 2018, 08:08:09 PM
    A seminary professor/priest of the SSPX holds the same view as me. There is no official position. How many times do I have to say it?  
    Let me break this down. Do you condemn your SSPX leaders for teaching heresy? yes or no. A yes means you must separate from them and thus cease being a member of the SSPX, a no means you support their positions and thus you would be contradicting yourself because you previously rejected what they teach.
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    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #16 on: June 08, 2018, 08:14:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ovenbird on June 08, 2018, 08:11:09 PM
    Let me break this down. Do you condemn your SSPX leaders for teaching heresy? yes or no. A yes means you must separate from them and thus cease being a member of the SSPX, a no means you support their positions and thus you would be contradicting yourself because you previously rejected what they teach.
    No I don't condemn them. What they said was erroneous. 
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #17 on: June 08, 2018, 08:15:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on June 08, 2018, 08:09:27 PM
    If they are condemned why are they part of the diocese structure and approved by the local bishops and the man you call pope?
    Who do you mean? Which group are you referring to?
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Ovenbird

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #18 on: June 08, 2018, 08:17:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 08, 2018, 08:14:15 PM
    No I don't condemn them. What they said was erroneous.
    That is a foolish position. You condemn their writings but not them who teach it. That does not make any sense. The logical position is to condemn them as outrageous heretics who deny very basic dogmas of the Church.
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    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #19 on: June 08, 2018, 08:18:05 PM »
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    • And of course, the Protestants and Orthodox who die validly baptized and holding to the Nicene Creed are saved through the Church. They are members of the Church, not saved outside of it
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #20 on: June 08, 2018, 08:19:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 08, 2018, 08:15:23 PM
    Who do you mean? Which group are you referring to?
    What planet are you on to ask me that question? You do not understand what I said and you are telling us that the "Feeneyites" are condemned? How old are you?
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #21 on: June 08, 2018, 08:19:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ovenbird on June 08, 2018, 08:17:15 PM
    That is a foolish position. You condemn their writings but not them who teach it. That does not make any sense. The logical position is to condemn them as outrageous heretics who deny very basic dogmas of the Church.
    They made a mistake. That is an error, not a heresy. 
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Ovenbird

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #22 on: June 08, 2018, 08:23:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 08, 2018, 08:19:44 PM
    They made a mistake. That is an error, not a heresy.
    If what they said isn't heresy then nothing is heresy. Obviously that is not true.
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    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #23 on: June 08, 2018, 08:27:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on June 08, 2018, 08:19:06 PM
    What planet are you on to ask me that question? You do not understand what I said and you are telling us that the "Feeneyites" are condemned?
    What Feeneyites are part of the Diocease? Do you mean the St. Benedict Center? Those guys are not canonically recognized
    From their website
    "The individuals who work and reside at Saint Benedict Center in Richmond, NH, are Catholic men and women who live in community according to their own chosen set of rules. While canonically these individuals remain in good standing in the Catholic Church, neither Saint Benedict Center nor the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary enjoys any recognition, canonical or otherwise, in the Universal Roman Catholic Church or in the Diocese of Manchester.
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #24 on: June 08, 2018, 08:29:42 PM »
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    • Anyone that lives the faith does so because they assented to God's grace. A Protestant is a Protestant, because they reject God's grace. If they do not know something it is because they chose not to assent to God's grace. 

    No one is lost without knowing it, and no one is deceived without wanting to be. (St. Teresa of Avila)
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    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #25 on: June 08, 2018, 08:32:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ovenbird on June 08, 2018, 08:27:05 PM
    Such a statement is heretical. It amounts to professing that Protestantism and "Orthodoxy" is the true faith which is heretical. To say that those who deny Church teaching are in the Church is heretical.

    Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943:
    “Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith.”
    The true Faith is contained in the Nicene Creed. If they hold to that, and aren't formal heretics, they can be saved. Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange 
    "Theologians in general are inclined to fill out what Scripture and tradition tell us by distinguishing the means of salvation given to Catholics from those that are given men of good will beyond the borders of the Church. …If we are treating of all Christians, of all who have been baptized, Catholic, schismatic, Protestant, it is more probable, theologians generally say, that the great number is saved. First, the number of infants who die in the state of grace before reaching the age of reason is very great. Secondly, many Protestants, being today in good faith, can be reconciled to God by an act of contrition, particularly in danger of death. Thirdly, schismatics can receive a valid absolution"

    Are you saying Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange was a heretic? Again, which sede group are you a part of?
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #26 on: June 08, 2018, 08:42:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 08, 2018, 08:27:46 PM
    What Feeneyites are part of the Diocease? Do you mean the St. Benedict Center? Those guys are not canonically recognized
    From their website
    "The individuals who work and reside at Saint Benedict Center in Richmond, NH, are Catholic men and women who live in community according to their own chosen set of rules. While canonically these individuals remain in good standing in the Catholic Church, neither Saint Benedict Center nor the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary enjoys any recognition, canonical or otherwise, in the Universal Roman Catholic Church or in the Diocese of Manchester.
    The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, St. Benedict Center in Still River community is approved and in full communion with the local diocese and the Church. The SSPX is not.  see for yourself https://www.saintbenedict.com/

    If the "Feeneyites" were condemned as you stated, how come they are approved by the man you call pope?

    How old are you?
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    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #27 on: June 08, 2018, 08:46:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on June 08, 2018, 08:42:50 PM
    The Slaves of the Immaculate heart of Mary, St. Benedict Center in Still River community is approved and in full communion with the local diocese and the Church. The SSPX is not.

    If the "Feeneyites" were condemned as you stated, how come they are approved by the man you call pope?

    How old are you?
    F
    They themselves say that they are not recognized by the Church
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #28 on: June 08, 2018, 08:47:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ovenbird on June 08, 2018, 08:43:06 PM
    The fact that you are calling them Protestants and "Orthodox" means they are non-Catholic and thus committed an act of heresy, schism, or apostasy which renders them as non-Catholics. To say they are not heretics but non-heretical non-Catholics is muddy garbage that is heretical.

    Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 23), June 29, 1943:
    “For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”

    I condemn Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange as a heretic.
    Thank you. There's no need going any further with you
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #29 on: June 08, 2018, 08:49:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 08, 2018, 08:46:16 PM
    F
    They themselves say that they are not recognized by the Church
    I am talking about Still River, please provide proof for what you claim.  
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    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24
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