Lately there has been an atmosphere in CathInfo that seems to be anything but "Cath." I have found myself pondering today how, if I came across this board, and stepped into the "trouser thread" (among others) how I would probably not stay to see anything more.

 "They will know you are Christians by the love you have one towards another..."

 To avoid a heated debate about what love is, no, it's not the admission or compromise with error. But if the apostles had stood and argued to the death about the faith with every person who refused to believe the truth, they wouldn't have made it out of the first city.

 Charity and humility go hand in hand. This does not mean we compromise our own morals when we realize that someone is not going to 'give' in a conversation.

Everyone thinks themselves at least somewhat intelligent, and most of us would allow that none of us are complete morons. Yet  it seems that some often loose sight of the fact that anyone with an ounce of intellect and as much humility, will recognize the truth when it is spoken, or at least discuss it civilly because to do otherwise turns the whole conversation into a fruitless battle of the egos... which is to no purpose but to the inflating of our personal pride. Anyone who is going to fight to the death will never give, so if we ourselves have intelligence and PRUDENCE, we can conclude that such ongoing bickering and insulting is to no real purpose BUT pride.

As a Catholic, I'd like to simply submit these few points for everyone's consideration, so that hopefully CathInfo will continue to grow (not shrink), and will remain an edifying, charitable place, unlike the many other forums that are consumed by this kind of prideful arguing. (Which is pretty much most of them.)

1. Part of prudence is knowing that someone is not going to change their mind. Humility is applied when we decide to stop fighting with one or two people who will never give, long after everybody else has reached at least a general agreement.

2. If a person can be quoted the Church teaching on a matter and still fight about it, chances are, they are not interested in submitting to the truth laid down in it, no matter how much you fight with and insult them.

3. Anyone of intelligence does not care that someone who is stubborn and refuses to submit to the truth has the last word. Usually long before then, people of intelligence and humility have both discovered and submitted to the truth, and have no intention of changing their own minds to go along with the one or two who refuse to acknowledge it. By continuing to argue with the stubborn ones, you may be thinking that you're trying to strike a blow for truth by crushing all opposition, but in reality, anyone who is going to "come over to" the truth has done so long before the 50th page of heated nit-picking. In reality, you're causing a scandal by wearing the name Catholic, and arguing like an atheist.

4. Arguing a matter point by point to the conclusion only works with someone who is 1) seeking to know the truth because they don't currently know it, and 2) who is willing to change their minds.

5. Finally, the act of not arguing perpetually with a few stubborn people to the scandal and high blood pressure of all present, is both an act of humility and charity... a sacrifice... which is better made and offered for those in error than to sit and fight to the death with them.

 Let's not forget that the infernal enemy goes about seeking whom he may devour, and that the root of much (if not all) sin is pride. All of us, without exception (yes, myself included!) have a streak of pride. The enemy wants to destroy the church and do it as much harm as possible. One way to do that, is to stoke the coals of just indignation into full blown pride, to the detriment of charity and humility, to cause ill will and scandal and strife among Catholics, and make them appear as mere hypocrites to one another and to everybody else.

If God thought like we do, he would not have given us a free will. Then He would have most definitely "won" the argument. It would be a small thing for Him to remove all doubt, and give us the choice the angels had... one of every individual fully knowing the truth and deciding to reject it. But then all human beings who did, would be put that much lower in hell for all eternity. Fortunately, God's mercy extends even to those who reject Him. He has not forced the truth, beyond all doubt, upon all of mankind, but simply puts it out there, in it's entirety, to be sought and known and submitted to by those with the humility and wisdom to seek it, and who want to follow Him.

I am here going to suggest that all of us try to follow Our Lord's example, and do the same. When you want to discuss something, it's all good and well to explore the various points, and to lay out what each thinks is the truth, so that all of the viewpoints (hopefully including the actual truth) are there for consideration. God has given each of us a conscience and few can deny access to priest or catechism, and all of us has the power of reason, even if we choose not to exercise it. Let's show a little humility and realize that those who want the truth will draw it from that presentation of facts, and leave off there... before all goes to bitter fighting, technical quibbling and... well... a complete lack of charity, to put it bluntly. For those who want the truth, they will find it, even by a few clues in the right direction. For those who want to be proud, no amount of fighting will convince them.

We aren't doing anyone any favors by this kind of pettiness... except to do the devil the favor of cooperating with him in spreading the strife he would like to see everywhere, especially among us. If we want this place to grow, so that one day we have many more of the faithful here lending their insights to our discussions, then we must behave like true followers of Christ, and do as He did. When, upon saying that we would have to eat His flesh and drink His blood in order to have life eternal, many people left Him, He didn't run after them and argue it to the death. He allowed them the free will He gave them to accept or deny the truth. We would all do well to do the same.

Hahaha I don't even know what I had (fever, lack of appetite, generally sick feeling) but it only lasted a couple of days, and I'm sure it had more to do with a virus or bacteria than anything going on at Cathinfo.  

I'm pretty sensitive compared to most, but it does take an actual BUG to get me sick. And I seldom get sick.

Matthew

I feel a little sick also, but I think it's all that halloween candy.   Don't we have a sick smiley?

I seriously considered leaving CathInfo several times over the last week, and not coming back. I'm very sensitive to stress (in fact it's one reason that I can't hold a job), so that kind of intense debate really does a number on me. My days of "going to the mat" about things are, I think, more or less over.

I just hope the headache abates soon.  :sad:

Don't worry, Dulcamara. :) Hang in there. The controversy is pretty much the usual thing for certain issues that are discussed on forums like here and Fisheaters. I must admit I remember having gotten kind of overly worried when certain issues came up on FE, but I got through them. For one thing, this is a forum where our human expressions are sort of limited since we only have so many emoticons as well as not being able to express perfectly what we actually mean and how we mean it when any of us says something on here.

At least no one called you unladylike or trashy Dulca  :faint:

I must have missed it, where did this happen?  I recall myself saying that your use of a certain phrase was trashy and unladylike, but went out of my way to make sure I did not call you trashy or unladylike.