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Offline Matthew

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CathInfo forbids calling R&R a heresy
« on: June 03, 2018, 11:42:23 AM »
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  • CathInfo is a Traditional Catholic forum, and I try to allow as many self-identifying Traditional Catholics to be members here as possible. A bit of variety and even difference of opinion (on matters of prudence) is a good thing.

    However, I will not tolerate extreme or fervent sedevacantists to go too far and declare that "Recognize and Resist" is heretical. Abbreviated R&R, Recognize and Resist is the position made famous by Archbishop Lefebvre's position, and the former SSPX before it became the neo-SSPX in the late 2000's.

    This isn't really a change from my existing rules -- I already forbid "dogmatic sedevacantism" -- defined as the belief that non-sedevacantists are not Catholic. If you say that I'm heretical for being R&R, isn't that the same as dogmatic sedevacantism?

    I am personally R&R. I'm not going to be called a heretic on my own message board. It's that simple. Any of you reading this (whatever your Trad opinion or persuasion) would do the same thing in my position. If you attempt to deny this, you are lying to yourself. If you are sedevacantist, and you had a sedevacantist message board, and I came on there saying that sedevacantism is heresy, I would be banned. Again, this is the truth so don't even try to deny it. And the same goes for other positions or opinions within the Traditional Catholic spectrum.

    No one would tolerate being called a heretic on their own message board. I defy anyone to produce an example of a any forum on the Internet that tolerates this. Go call any moderator on a mainstream (non-Catholic) board a "Nazi" or "Anti-Semite" (those are the worst things to be, according to The World -- The World doesn't care about heresy) and see how long your account lasts.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: CathInfo forbids calling R&R a heresy
    « Reply #1 on: June 03, 2018, 01:39:58 PM »
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  • Bravo.

    I like what you are doing here lately.

    Your recent banishments, thread deletions, and protections for R&R are all positive developments to reclaim the identity of this forum.

    Well done. :applause:
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-



    Offline Matthew

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    Re: CathInfo forbids calling R&R a heresy
    « Reply #2 on: June 03, 2018, 01:50:07 PM »
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  • Bravo.

    I like what you are doing here lately.

    Your recent banishments, thread deletions, and protections for R&R are all positive developments to reclaim the identity of this forum.

    Well done. :applause:

    Just to point out, so there's no confusion --

    I'm not going to get out a virtual Bible and make each member swear before God that they believe the man Francis Bergoglio is Pope Francis, and the current Catholic pope.

    I'm not going to ban all "sedevacantists, sedeprivationists, sede-etcetera, and those who push tolerance for the same" or however you put it. I don't think that is either wise or necessary.

    The APOSTLES or SOLDIERS of sedevacantism, yes. If they are here to fight the sedevacantist cause, recruit, call R&R a heresy, etc. then I really can't put up with that. It makes for a very hostile environment for those choosing the old SSPX/Resistance/R&R position. You can discuss the position, say why you prefer it, talk about the pros and cons of the various Trad positions.

    The fact is that Trads have a lot more in common (98%?) compared to the few issues that divide us. I wish we'd focus on that more. I once argued with a sedevacantist about 10 years ago about this very topic. He admitted that my wife and I wouldn't have to change ANYTHING if we "converted" to Sedevacantism. We'd just "have the truth" as the sedevacantist put it.

    That tells me that, logically, sedevacantists SHOULD be able to participate on CathInfo, on just about every other topic! There have to be sedevacantists who aren't obsessed with the Pope question. I'm not giving up on this (not to mention, I believe I have found several of these sedevacantists in question: the current CI members in good standing who identify as sede).

    But when a person starts literally condemning to Hell those who disagree with them on the Crisis (R&R adherents for example), how is that any different from the Dimond Brothers modus operandi? Or how is it different from the various dogmatic Sedevacantists who I've banned over the years?

    But you can't argue with results. You can click anywhere you want on CathInfo (except perhaps if you look at posts deep in the past) and you're not going to find people calling R&R a heresy. That is not an accident.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: CathInfo forbids calling R&R a heresy
    « Reply #3 on: June 03, 2018, 01:54:12 PM »
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  • Just to point out, so there's no confusion --

    I'm not going to get out a virtual Bible and make each member swear before God that they believe the man Francis Bergoglio is Pope Francis, and the current Catholic pope.

    I'm not going to ban all "sedevacantists, sedeprivationists, sede-etcetera, and those who push tolerance for the same" or however you put it. I don't think that is either wise or necessary.

    The APOSTLES or SOLDIERS of sedevacantism, yes. If they are here to fight the sedevacantist cause, recruit, call R&R a heresy, etc. then I really can't put up with that. It makes for a very hostile environment for those choosing the old SSPX/Resistance/R&R position. You can discuss the position, say why you prefer it, talk about the pros and cons of the various Trad positions.

    But when a person starts condemning those who disagree with them on the Crisis, how is that any different from the Dimond Brothers modus operandi? Or how is it different from the various dogmatic Sedevacantists who I've banned over the years?

    But you can't argue with results. You can click anywhere you want on CathInfo (except perhaps if you look at posts deep in the past) and you're not going to find people calling R&R a heresy. That is not an accident.
    No problem.  

    I can do all the vetting for you.  

    In any given sede vs R&R debate, I will simply ask the sede participants whether they consider R&R against the faith.  

    That ought to continue thinning the ranks, since many will not be able to resist admitting outwardly that which they consider true inwardly.
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: CathInfo forbids calling R&R a heresy
    « Reply #4 on: June 03, 2018, 01:58:17 PM »
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  • I don't know about that...

    I think there's something to be said for NOT taking something to its logical conclusion. Thinking your opponents are wrong? That would apply to just about everyone on CathInfo. What use are beliefs if you don't consider them important, or objectively true? If I believe something to be true, then I obviously believe something which contradicts it to be false. And what does "wrong" or "false" mean when you're talking about the Faith and the path to heaven?

    Taking the actual step of saying "My opponents espouse heresy" is another matter. That's a red line.

    I'm not going to promise or commit to banning everyone you "beat a confession out of" hahaha  It would depend on their posting history, if they are truly militant sedevacantist/militant anti-R&R or not.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: CathInfo forbids calling R&R a heresy
    « Reply #5 on: June 03, 2018, 01:59:40 PM »
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  • I don't know about that...

    I think there's something to be said for NOT taking something to its logical conclusion. Thinking your opponents are wrong? That would apply to just about everyone on CathInfo. What use are beliefs if you don't consider them important, or objectively true? And what does "wrong" mean when you're talking about the Faith and the path to heaven?

    Taking the actual step of saying "My opponents espouse heresy" is another matter. That's a red line.

    I'm not going to promise or commit to banning everyone you "beat a confession out of" hahaha  It would depend on their posting history, if they are truly militant sedevacantist/militant anti-R&R or not.

    Well, I expect it will not be long before I present several candidates before your tribunal.
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: CathInfo forbids calling R&R a heresy
    « Reply #6 on: June 03, 2018, 02:06:13 PM »
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  • Looking forward to asking that question to: Cantarella, 2Vermont, Ladislaus, and several others.
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: CathInfo forbids calling R&R a heresy
    « Reply #7 on: June 03, 2018, 02:30:04 PM »
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  • Oh-oh:  Looks like the sedes want to hide now, rather than be confronted with that question and lose their sounding board (so they will just adopt the new strategy to thumbs-down, without risking the engagement which will lead to their banishment).

    I would say that is probably their best strategy.

    But they won't be able to stay out of the fray for long.

    Engaging is in their DNA, so it is only a matter of (very little) time.

    A little baiting is all it takes.
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-



    Offline rum

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    Re: CathInfo forbids calling R&R a heresy
    « Reply #8 on: June 03, 2018, 04:00:22 PM »
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  • Looking forward to asking that question to: Cantarella, 2Vermont, Ladislaus, and several others.
    I hope Cantarella's not banned. I never read your stuff. I read her postings all the time and like them.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: CathInfo forbids calling R&R a heresy
    « Reply #9 on: June 03, 2018, 04:19:58 PM »
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  • I hope Cantarella's not banned. I never read your stuff. I read her postings all the time and like them.
    Hi Rum: Do you believe R&R is against the faith?
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: CathInfo forbids calling R&R a heresy
    « Reply #10 on: June 03, 2018, 04:27:13 PM »
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  • Oh-oh:  Looks like the sedes want to hide now, rather than be confronted with that question and lose their sounding board (so they will just adopt the new strategy to thumbs-down, without risking the engagement which will lead to their banishment).
    Sean, one doesn't need to be a sede to thumb you down. 


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: CathInfo forbids calling R&R a heresy
    « Reply #11 on: June 03, 2018, 04:33:01 PM »
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  • Sean, one doesn't need to be a sede to thumb you down.
    Hi Nadir:
    Do you believe that the R&R position is against the faith?
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline rum

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    Re: CathInfo forbids calling R&R a heresy
    « Reply #12 on: June 03, 2018, 04:49:36 PM »
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  • Hi Rum: Do you believe R&R is against the faith?
    I don't know.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: CathInfo forbids calling R&R a heresy
    « Reply #13 on: June 03, 2018, 04:51:43 PM »
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  • Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline Marcellinus

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    Re: CathInfo forbids calling R&R a heresy
    « Reply #14 on: June 03, 2018, 05:32:53 PM »
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  • Sedevacantists can be their own worst enemies.  Many set themselves up as their own little "popes", so to speak, and declare something to be dogma, when they themselves believe there is no authority at the present moment to declare anything as a dogma!

    And of course, I say this as a sedeprivationist priest...

    With every position and theory on the crisis, there is a counter argument.. There is no one single theory that someone can't find an inconsistency or issue with, including my own position of sedeprivationism.

    We all need to realize that we are all Catholics, and we are in this fight together.  The divisions between us all come straight from the master deceiver, the father of lies.

    Oh that God would end this crisis, and soon.

     

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