Author Topic: Cannibalism - is it okay? (Read 4074 times)

Jamie · « **on:** January 16, 2010, 03:44:38 PM »

I decided that it would be better to put this into a thread of its own rather than continue it off-topic elsewhere.

Having spoken to my Thomistic philosophy professor about the subject, I am now more willing to state what I think.

1. "Human" is when the soul and body are united.
2. When the soul departs the body, the result is flesh but it is not human.
3. In the resurrection of the dead, parts of the body which are missing will be provided by God from the dust of the earth from whence we came.
4. In cases of dire need, it is not wrong to eat the flesh of the "human".

St Thomas and St Augustine both discussed the idea of cannibalism as it related to the resurrection of the dead. Both concluded that God would provide the necessary parts of the body that are missing from the cannibalized person and the cannibal. This is no different from God providing the extra flesh to a child who will resurrect at the age of 33-34.

Just to reiterate, a human body with no soul is not human except by analogy. It is not sinful if starving to consume the flesh except where there might be extenuating circuмstances (such as the body holding the key to curing a dreadful disease in which case more will die as a result of your consuming the corpse).

Having said that, it is, of course, never permissible to kill a person in order to consume him.

While the Vatican may be extremely liberal at the moment - I believe that their statement that the cannibals from the crash didn't need to confess was the right and reasoned response.

And finally - to Raoul and CM who will no doubt object that we should pray for God to provide rather than eat the corpse - perhaps that is WHAT God is providing. Perhaps it was the prayers of those people in the plane crash that led God to allow certain of their friends to perish in the crash to provide them the food. Maybe cannibalism WAS the answer to the prayers.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 16, 2010, 06:38:40 PM »

Jamie said:

Quote

"And finally - to Raoul and CM who will no doubt object that we should pray for God to provide rather than eat the corpse - perhaps that is WHAT God is providing. Perhaps it was the prayers of those people in the plane crash that led God to allow certain of their friends to perish in the crash to provide them the food. Maybe cannibalism WAS the answer to the prayers.

This is satire, right? Please tell me you're inspired by Jonathan Swift and just love a good satire. Saying it's not a sin and just gross is one thing, but to say God answers someone's prayers by providing them with a dead body is borderline blasphemous.

God could have provided the plane-crash survivors with a better location to crash in, near a Sizzler or something -- maybe He didn't like those dudes. Maybe they took advantage of girls after their soccer games and so via divine justice He got them to cannibalize each other as they cannibalize women. He knew they would never repent, because He knew their hearts. I'm not slandering or spreading rumors about them, I know nothing about them, I'm saying maybe there was a justice to their fate that we don't know about.

I was once talking about Helen Keller with the priest of CMRI and mentioned how she was Order of Eastern Star, female Freemason. I suggested that God saw to it that she was born with all these handicaps because He knew her heart before she did. What I meant was that He knew she would have a deep hatred of Him. He thought the only way to potentially save her was to put her in such dire physical need, blind, deaf, and dumb, that she would have to turn to Him as her only relief. Instead she uses her free will to become a female Mason. This is defiance in its purest form, except for Satan and the fallen angels themselves.

I am extremely sensitive about this cannibalism topic and you will not get me to agree. I have thought about it a lot since I'm essentially waiting for America to crash any day now. The Church may not have said it's a sin, and God may forgive it -- or He may not -- but I would choose to die in the most wretched way possible before eating another human being. I would walk far away from the corpse so as not to be tempted by it and I would keep on walking until I couldn't remember where it was. If bodies were all around me... I don't know what I'll do. God has given me some graces to resist temptations but I have never been starving to death before.

I'm not sure I'd want to go on living after having eaten a human. There is something about it that is so taboo. I think that's why Disney made the film Alive, the devil knows just how repugnant such an action is to God.

A cannibal who eats humans before his conversion is a different story.

Jamie · « **Reply #2 on:** January 16, 2010, 07:24:16 PM »

Quote from: Raoul76

I was once talking about Helen Keller with the priest of CMRI and mentioned how she was Order of Eastern Star, female Freemason. I suggested that God saw to it that she was born with all these handicaps because He knew her heart before she did. What I meant was that He knew she would have a deep hatred of Him. He thought the only way to potentially save her was to put her in such dire physical need, blind, deaf, and dumb, that she would have to turn to Him as her only relief. Instead she uses her free will to become a female Mason. This is defiance in its purest form, except for Satan and the fallen angels themselves.

I am extremely sensitive about this cannibalism topic and you will not get me to agree. I have thought about it a lot since I'm essentially waiting for America to crash any day now. The Church may not have said it's a sin, and God may forgive it -- or He may not -- but I would choose to die in the most wretched way possible before eating another human being. I would walk far away from the corpse so as not to be tempted by it and I would keep on walking until I couldn't remember where it was. If bodies were all around me... I don't know what I'll do. God has given me some graces to resist temptations but I have never been starving to death before.

First Helen Keller: how on earth did a blind deaf and dumb woman join a masonic sect? How did she even know what they were?

Second: as I said before, according to Thomistic philosophy, the dead body is not human - a human is a body and soul united - once the soul departs, a shell of dead matter remains which is not human. You can say it is "human" by analogy, but it is not human in reality.

Between my post and yours I think it is quite amusing to see that we are looking at the same thing from a glass half full glass half empty situation - I am looking for a way that God did the people a service, and you are looking for a way in which God punished them. Weird.

Elizabeth · « **Reply #3 on:** January 16, 2010, 07:31:38 PM »

How about using the Search function of Catholic Encyclopedia - just pop in the word cannibalism.

Jamie, perhaps it's just the gourmet chef in you :ready-to-eat:

but you really might want to re=think your menu?

Jamie · « **Reply #4 on:** January 16, 2010, 08:04:59 PM »

Quote from: Elizabeth

How about using the Search function of Catholic Encyclopedia - just pop in the word cannibalism.

Jamie, perhaps it's just the gourmet chef in you :ready-to-eat:

but you really might want to re=think your menu?

Elizabeth, I must confess to loving trying out new foods and tastes - there is virtually nothing I have tasted that I wouldn't eat again, but even I draw the line at eating dead people! :) Having said that, unless someone can show me evidence to the contrary - I would consider doing so in a life or death situation.

Also, I tried searching the Catholic Encyclopedia for cannibalism and only found a series of articles relating to native people from around the world.

Alex · « **Reply #5 on:** January 17, 2010, 05:40:04 AM »

Quote from: Raoul76

The Church may not have said it's a sin, and God may forgive it -- or He may not -- but I would choose to die in the most wretched way possible before eating another human being. I would walk far away from the corpse so as not to be tempted by it and I would keep on walking until I couldn't remember where it was. If bodies were all around me... I don't know what I'll do. God has given me some graces to resist temptations but I have never been starving to death before.

The only reason I would not eat a dead human if I were starving is not because it is taboo (or because it is sinful - because Rome has said it is not when faced with starvation)but because I would be too disgusted to. I can't even bring myself to eat a medium rare steak - it has to be very well done with not even pink showing.

Starving to death is not as bad as going without water. I have been 6 days without a single morsel of food to eat. After the second day, I really didn't feel hungry anymore for the remainder of the days. But, by the 6th day, my lips and face did turn bluish and I was extremely weak and dizzy. I have also been without water for almost 3 days. Being without water, even for 1 day, was harder than being without food for 6 days.

Jamie · « **Reply #6 on:** January 17, 2010, 05:52:37 AM »

Quote from: Alex

Quote from: Raoul76

The Church may not have said it's a sin, and God may forgive it -- or He may not -- but I would choose to die in the most wretched way possible before eating another human being. I would walk far away from the corpse so as not to be tempted by it and I would keep on walking until I couldn't remember where it was. If bodies were all around me... I don't know what I'll do. God has given me some graces to resist temptations but I have never been starving to death before.

The only reason I would not eat a dead human if I were starving is not because it is taboo (or because it is sinful - because Rome has said it is not when faced with starvation)but because I would be too disgusted to. I can't even bring myself to eat a medium rare steak - it has to be very well done with not even pink showing.

Starving to death is not as bad as going without water. I have been 6 days without a single morsel of food to eat. After the second day, I really didn't feel hungry anymore for the remainder of the days. But, by the 6th day, my lips and face did turn bluish and I was extremely weak and dizzy. I have also been without water for almost 3 days. Being without water, even for 1 day, was harder than being without food for 6 days.

I can totally appreciate the lack of water being worse than a lack of food. As for the steak - you really haven't had a good steak until you have had it "bleu" - that is cooked for one minute on the highest heat on each side, rested for a minute or two and eaten. It is the most tender, juicy steak you will ever eat. I am, of course, talking about bovine steak - not human steak :)

CM · « **Reply #7 on:** January 17, 2010, 06:13:04 AM »

Borderline blasphemous?

Jamie · « **Reply #8 on:** January 17, 2010, 06:16:27 AM »

Quote from: CM

Borderline blasphemous?

What specifically?

CM · « **Reply #9 on:** January 17, 2010, 06:37:52 AM »

Jamie, if you were dying of starvation in France today, would you take a bite of le Curé D'Ars, if his incorrupt body were the only organic material around? How about Bernadette Soubirous?

Why or why not?

Miss_Fluffy · « **Reply #10 on:** January 17, 2010, 09:57:28 AM »

In a survival situation, if you drink your own urine, your chances of survival are much better. It not only rehydrates you, it also replaces essential vitamins and minerals that are unfortunately lost through urination. The waste product urea is easily passed through the digestive tract without harming you.

So, I think in such a situation I would do that, trusting that it would help me survive much longer without needing to eat.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 17, 2010, 01:57:28 PM »

Jamie, I saw that you once came close to denying the Resurrection of the body in one of your threads about the motionlessness of heaven, then backed off when CM caught you.

Now you are suggesting that it's not a sin to eat people, another kind of attack on the Resurrection.

Catholics who have free will, and who can respond to the workings of grace, do not have to succuмb to revolting actions in an emergency. We know that a body is going to be united to its soul in heaven and when we eat the body we are eating someone's eternal vessel. Yes, I know God restores the parts that are missing, that's not the point.

You might want to let the cannibalism go. Even passing by this thread and seeing the title "Cannibalism -- is it okay?" is surreal. Of course Vatican II condoned it; I wonder what more these people can do to show the world they aren't of God?

Alex, pray tell, why did you not eat for six days? Yes, I think thirst is much more vicious than hunger. Sometimes after the first pangs of hunger a pleasant light-headed sensation comes over you. Thirst can never be pleasant. I've heard ( in a movie ) that someone without water or anything to drink dies because their tongue swells up into a giant mass and chokes them.

Jamie · « **Reply #12 on:** January 17, 2010, 02:36:44 PM »

Quote from: CM

Jamie, if you were dying of starvation in France today, would you take a bite of le Curé D'Ars, if his incorrupt body were the only organic material around? How about Bernadette Soubirous?

Why or why not?

No I wouldn't - for the reason that I mentioned in my initial post - the ethics of eating the specific body must be taken into account - such as a person whose dead body contains the cure for a terrible disease. In the case of the two incorruptibles you mention, I wouldn't because God has deigned to use their corpses of his miraculous powers and it would be sacrilege to eat them. That is, of course, just my opinion.

Jamie · « **Reply #13 on:** January 17, 2010, 02:44:55 PM »

Quote from: Raoul76

Jamie, I saw that you once came close to denying the Resurrection of the body in one of your threads about the motionlessness of heaven, then backed off when CM caught you.

Now you are suggesting that it's not a sin to eat people, another kind of attack on the Resurrection.

Catholics who have free will, and who can respond to the workings of grace, do not have to succuмb to revolting actions in an emergency. We know that a body is going to be united to its soul in heaven and when we eat the body we are eating someone's eternal vessel. Yes, I know God restores the parts that are missing, that's not the point.

You might want to let the cannibalism go. Even passing by this thread and seeing the title "Cannibalism -- is it okay?" is surreal. Of course Vatican II condoned it; I wonder what more these people can do to show the world they aren't of God?

I don't recall coming close to denying the resurrection - show me where it was please. I absolutely do believe in the resurrection of the body - I have referred to it often in these discussions. The words you use are interesting - you say I was "caught" as if I am trying to deny something in a sneaky way. Why are you so suspicious? Do you ever presume someone has good intentions or is it always bad intentions?

As I said earlier, St Thomas and St Augustine both explained how God would provide for the necessary extra parts of a person whose body has turned completely to dust or who died with only a partial body. You can't just say "that's not the point" because it is. Consuming the corpse of a person in an emergency does not seem to be ethically wrong (and as I said, a traditional Catholic philosophy professor also confirmed this to me directly).

Now, why don't you show me that people on this board are capable of discussing a new issue without resorting to name calling. You have, as yet, given me no reason to change my opinion on cannibalism. If you do that, then I will of course drop the subject and change my view, but so far no one has done anything to refute my proposition except hint that I am blaspheming or a borderline heretic.

If you are so sure (both you and CM in fact) don't call me names - use reason to show me why I am wrong.

Jamie · « **Reply #14 on:** January 17, 2010, 02:47:05 PM »

Quote from: Miss_Fluffy

In a survival situation, if you drink your own urine, your chances of survival are much better. It not only rehydrates you, it also replaces essential vitamins and minerals that are unfortunately lost through urination. The waste product urea is easily passed through the digestive tract without harming you.

So, I think in such a situation I would do that, trusting that it would help me survive much longer without needing to eat.

That would definitely be the first thing you should do in the event of the situation we are discussing. But if that wasn't enough and you prayed and prayed to God for food or help - what would you do if you suddenly stumbled upon a recently dead body? Would you think it might be the answer from God or would you just reject it?

Keep in mind that not one person here has yet given an ethical reason to reject cannibalism in extreme circuмstances.