Author Topic: Can the Pope invent a New Form of Worship (Read 2049 times)

Centroamerica · « **on:** July 22, 2015, 09:58:00 AM »

A poll about the changing or inventing new "Catholic rites of worship".

Ladislaus · « **Reply #1 on:** July 22, 2015, 10:05:34 AM »

Please define "form of worship". Also define "new".

Centroamerica · « **Reply #2 on:** July 22, 2015, 10:20:15 AM »

If I have to define every little term than I'd just as soon not do a poll.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #3 on:** July 22, 2015, 10:25:58 AM »

Quote from: Centroamerica

If I have to define every little term than I'd just as soon not do a poll.

These are crucial to being able to answer the poll.

Your responses imply that you're equating "form of Worship" with a Mass or Divine Liturgy. How about the Divine Office or things like Benedictions?

And "new"; that's important also. What if a Pope MODIFIES the form of worship, do you consider that "new"? What if a Pope takes two different Rites of Mass, such as a Byznatine Rite Liturgy and the old Roman Rite and combines the elements? Is that "new"?

Centroamerica · « **Reply #4 on:** July 22, 2015, 10:29:29 AM »

Forget it. It is obviously a reference to a new rite of Mass. I'm not gonna define "new".

Ladislaus · « **Reply #5 on:** July 22, 2015, 10:32:51 AM »

Then the poll is unanswerable.

Centroamerica · « **Reply #6 on:** July 22, 2015, 10:50:31 AM »

Well, it is obviously a reference to the Novus Ordo, but since after the latest Bishop Williamson thread, it is revealed that a significant number of members of this forum attend the New Bastard rite or use the modernist speak (extraordinary form) then I am forced to say "new form" in order so that these Novus Ordoites understand. Defining "new" is for first semester students of English as a Foreign Language, not Cath Info.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #7 on:** July 22, 2015, 11:23:47 AM »

Then all you had to say is that "form of worship" refers to a new Mass.

Can the pope add and remove things from the Mass? Of course he can. His power is limited only by what comes to us of divine institution and is of divine law. So, for instance, he could not change the words of consecration or the core parts of the Mass which appear to come from the Apostles. Would it be gravely imprudent of him to make substantial changes? Yes. But the Holy Spirit would prevent the Pope from imposing a bad or positively defective Rite of Mass upon the Church.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #8 on:** July 22, 2015, 11:25:32 AM »

Quote from: Centroamerica

Defining "new" is for first semester students of English as a Foreign Language, not Cath Info.

Not at all; it's important. Some people might say that making changes to a Rite of Mass would fall with the Pope's powers but that inventing something out of thin air would not. Some radicals have declared the 1962 Tridentine Mass a "new" Mass. (cf. traditio.com).

Centroamerica · « **Reply #9 on:** July 22, 2015, 11:36:48 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Centroamerica
Defining "new" is for first semester students of English as a Foreign Language, not Cath Info.

Not at all; it's important. Some people might say that making changes to a Rite of Mass would fall with the Pope's powers but that inventing something out of thin air would not. Some radicals have declared the 1962 Tridentine Mass a "new" Mass. (cf. traditio.com).

Well, I didn't know that.

The point is that someone made a comment that if the SSPX rejects the New Mass, then they are schismatic. So basically, they believe the pope can do amything he wants with the Mass, because the New Mass is not just a significant change to a pre-existing rite. It is a new rite.

Marlelar · « **Reply #10 on:** July 22, 2015, 01:40:47 PM »

"Can the Pope invent a New Form of Worship?"

Well he certainly can, and he certainly did! But it is not allowable, not legitimate, it is not truly Roman Catholic

Luther also invented a new form of worship. "Could" he do it? Yes, and he did. Was it allowable or legitimate? No, and we cannot follow Luther either.

Centroamerica · « **Reply #11 on:** July 22, 2015, 06:50:38 PM »

Obviously I meant "could he legitimately do it". I am not gonna waste everybody's time making a poll to ask about the personal capabilities, legitimate or not legitimate, of a given person.

This is my last poll. It's like needy people need you to spell out every word for them, and I don't have patience for that. I have first semester EFL students who understand basic terms and contextual meanings better than some members of this forum. What a joke.

Marlelar · « **Reply #12 on:** July 23, 2015, 03:03:15 PM »

This is an excellent example of why pollsters must be very careful and explicit when wording a poll. Words have meaning so it is important to choose wisely.

AlanF · « **Reply #13 on:** July 23, 2015, 04:51:54 PM »

Ladislaus is right, our answers could be completely different depending on what you mean by "form of worship" or "new".

Disputaciones · « **Reply #14 on:** July 24, 2015, 01:24:03 AM »

Quote from: Centroamerica

If I have to define every little term than I'd just as soon not do a poll.

Can you tell me, without looking it up, what "rite" means?