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Offline Marlelar

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C of E encourages trans-clerics
« on: May 28, 2018, 02:48:46 PM »
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  • C of E is certainly a trend-setting organization.


    Transgender people are being encouraged to join the clergy in new Church of England guidance on “honouring LGBT+ people”, aimed at fighting the church’s reputation as “homophobic”.

    Guidance from bishops in Lichfield, a diocese covering almost 600 churches in an area populated by more than 2 million people, reminds parishioners and clergy that homosexuals and people who identify as transgender “can be called to roles of leadership and service in the local church”.

    link

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: C of E encourages trans-clerics
    « Reply #1 on: May 28, 2018, 03:51:50 PM »
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  • So what? There are High-Church Anglicans who vehemently oppose this stuff. I see this kind of thing quite a bit with modern Catholic apologists.( taking joy in and mocking the bad behavior of other Christians) I hate to say this, but the Church( in its current state) is in no place to criticize or mock anyone. Let's straighten the Church out first. When we have our heads on straight, we can help others get their heads on straight as well.
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9


    Offline trad123

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    Re: C of E encourages trans-clerics
    « Reply #2 on: May 28, 2018, 03:54:37 PM »
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  • So what? There are High-Church Anglicans who vehemently oppose this stuff. I see this kind of thing quite a bit with modern Catholic apologists.( taking joy in and mocking the bad behavior of other Christians) I hate to say this, but the Church( in its current state) is in no place to criticize or mock anyone. Let's straighten the Church out first. When we have our heads on straight, we can help others get their heads on straight as well.

    Heretics are not Christians.

    http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/m013rpProtestantsChristians.html
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: C of E encourages trans-clerics
    « Reply #3 on: May 28, 2018, 03:59:55 PM »
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  • Heretics are not Christians.

    http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/m013rpProtestantsChristians.html
    Yes they are. Most Protestants are material heretics( in error but not culpable for it) not formal ones. When discussing salvation, Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange notes
    "Theologians in general are inclined to fill out what Scripture and tradition tell us by distinguishing the means of salvation given to Catholics from those that are given men of good will beyond the borders of the Church. …If we are treating of all Christians, of all who have been baptized, Catholic, schismatic, Protestant, it is more probable, theologians generally say, that the great number is saved. First, the number of infants who die in the state of grace before reaching the age of reason is very great. Secondly, many Protestants, being today in good faith, can be reconciled to God by an act of contrition, particularly in danger of death. Thirdly, schismatics can receive a valid absolution"
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline trad123

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    Re: C of E encourages trans-clerics
    « Reply #4 on: May 28, 2018, 04:23:10 PM »
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  • Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange

    Orestes Brownson

    Brownson's Quarterly Review, 1873

    https://books.google.com/books?id=aHBBAAAAYAAJ&

    Pgs. 482 - 483


    Quote
    We know nothing more reprehensible than the nambypambyism babbled by sentimental Catholics about the good faith of "our separated brethren." There may be persons in good faith amongst Protestants, but, if so, they do not lack opportunities of showing it, and of coming out from the Babylon in which they have been reared. Men cannot be saved without Christ, for there is no other name given under heaven whereby they can be saved. Without faith it is impossible to please God, and he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and is the remunerator of them that seek him ; and how can those be saved by Christ who adhere to the party that rejects him and makes war on him ; and how can they have faith or believe in God who commune with those who resolve all faith, all belief, all truth indeed, into a mere opinion, or an inward sentiment, varying with each individual?

    If Catholicity is Christian, if reason is authoritative in its own province, nothing is more certain than that Protestantism is in no sense Christian, and that persons living and dying Protestants cannot be saved. It is a stultification of common sense to maintain the contrary, and besides, it practically neutralizes all our efforts to convert Protestants, and to bring them to a living and saving faith in Christ. We know what theologians say of invincible ignorance, and we do not contradict them. Invincible ignorance excuses from sin in that whereof one is invincibly ignorant; but it gives no faith, no virtue ; and without faith, without positive virtue, no man can be saved. The man who holds implicitly the Catholic faith, but errs through invincible ignorance with regard to some of its consectaria, and even dogmas, may be saved ; but how can a man be said to hold implicitly the Catholic faith, who holds nothing, or rejects every principle, that implies it? It is not safe to apply to Protestants, who really deny everything catholic, a rule that is very just when applied to sincere but ignorant Catholics, or Catholics that err through inculpable ignorance. Protestantism does not stand on the footing of ordinary heterodoxy ; it is no more Christian than was Greek and Roman paganism.



    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/greg16/g16summo.htm

    Summo Iugiter Studio, On Mixed Marriages, Pope Gregory XVI - 1832

    Quote
    2.

    (. . .)

    Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.

    Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange and the theologians who posited otherwise, erred
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline Banezian

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    Re: C of E encourages trans-clerics
    « Reply #5 on: May 28, 2018, 04:26:40 PM »
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  • Orestes Brownson

    Brownson's Quarterly Review, 1873

    https://books.google.com/books?id=aHBBAAAAYAAJ&

    Pgs. 482 - 483




    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/greg16/g16summo.htm

    Summo Iugiter Studio, On Mixed Marriages, Pope Gregory XVI - 1832

    Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange and the theologians who posited otherwise, erred
    That is one view. The view of Fr. Lagrange and Mgsr. Fenton is just as valid. Brownson wasn't even a theologian 
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline trad123

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    Re: C of E encourages trans-clerics
    « Reply #6 on: May 28, 2018, 04:32:48 PM »
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  • That is one view. The view of Fr. Lagrange and Mgsr. Fenton is just as valid.

    The views are opposed; I think you mean permitted to be held.

    When this crisis is over, I can see the latter view being condemned. The battle being fought pertains to ecclesiology, and I long for the day it is sorted out.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: C of E encourages trans-clerics
    « Reply #7 on: May 28, 2018, 04:39:27 PM »
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  • The views are opposed; I think you mean permitted to be held.

    When this crisis is over, I can see the latter view being condemned. The battle being fought pertains to ecclesiology, and I long for the day it is sorted out.
    Permitted yes. The sort of sectarianism promoted by people like Brownson lacks depth. As I said, Brownson is not a theologian and it shows. You'd do better to quote Fr. Michael Muller.( he takes a similar view, but even he argues that Protestants can be saved in ignorance )
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9


    Offline trad123

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    Re: C of E encourages trans-clerics
    « Reply #8 on: May 28, 2018, 04:44:08 PM »
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  • You'd do better to quote Fr. Michael Muller.( he takes a similar view, but even he argues that Protestants can be saved in ignorance )

    You have a citation for that?
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: C of E encourages trans-clerics
    « Reply #9 on: May 28, 2018, 04:54:47 PM »
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  • You have a citation for that?
    https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2012/12/04/fr-michael-muller-c-s-s-r-taught-the-doctrine-of-baptism-of-desire/
    "Q. What are we to think of the salvation of those who are out of the pale of the Church without any fault of theirs, and who never had any opportunity of knowing better?
    A. Their inculpable ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance.
    Q. Is it then right for us to say that one who was not received into the Church before his death, is damned?
    A. No.
    Q. Why not?
    A. Because we cannot know for certain what takes place between God and the soul at the awful moment of death.
    Q. What do you mean by this?
    A. I mean that God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten, at the hour of death, one who is not yet a Catholic, so that he may see the truth of the Catholic faith, be truly sorry for his sins, and sincerely desire to die a good Catholic.
    Q. What do we say of those who receive such an extraordinary grace, and die in this manner?
    A. We say of them that they die united, at least, to the soul of the Catholic Church, and are saved.
    Q. What, then, awaits all those who are out of the Catholic Church, and die without having received such an extraordinary grace at the hour of death?
    A. Eternal damnation."

    So Muller certainly takes a more hardline view than Garrigou/Fenton( and myself) but even he says that one can be saved outside the Church, if through no fault of their own they have had no opportunity to enter it. The key difference between Muller and Brownson is that Muller is a priest/theologian, and a respectable scholar. He doesn't need to be vitriolic to get his point across
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline trad123

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    Re: C of E encourages trans-clerics
    « Reply #10 on: May 28, 2018, 05:04:43 PM »
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  • but even he says that one can be saved outside the Church, if through no fault of their own they have had no opportunity to enter it.

    How did you manage to read that and write the very opposite of his position?

    It's evident that he writes of one who is not known publicly to have been received into the Church, but is describing the receiving of an extraordinary grace of conversion, not publicly known. 
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline Banezian

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    Re: C of E encourages trans-clerics
    « Reply #11 on: May 28, 2018, 05:11:09 PM »
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  • How did you manage to read that and write the very opposite of his position?

    It's evident that he writes of one who is not known publicly to have been received into the Church, but is describing the receiving of an extraordinary grace of conversion, not publicly known.  
    Yes, but to us, this person is outside the Church. He says they die united  "to the soul of the Catholic Church" Hence, they were never part of the Body. In any case, I disagree with Fr. Muller.
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline songbird

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    Re: C of E encourages trans-clerics
    « Reply #12 on: May 28, 2018, 07:00:26 PM »
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  • Well, at least you are giving yourself away.  

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: C of E encourages trans-clerics
    « Reply #13 on: May 28, 2018, 07:11:05 PM »
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  • Well, at least you are giving yourself away.  
    Giving myself away? Do elaborate.
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Motorede

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    Re: C of E encourages trans-clerics
    « Reply #14 on: May 28, 2018, 09:23:51 PM »
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  • https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2012/12/04/fr-michael-muller-c-s-s-r-taught-the-doctrine-of-baptism-of-desire/
    "Q. What are we to think of the salvation of those who are out of the pale of the Church without any fault of theirs, and who never had any opportunity of knowing better?
    A. Their inculpable ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance.
    Q. Is it then right for us to say that one who was not received into the Church before his death, is damned?
    A. No.
    Q. Why not?
    A. Because we cannot know for certain what takes place between God and the soul at the awful moment of death.
    Q. What do you mean by this?
    A. I mean that God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten, at the hour of death, one who is not yet a Catholic, so that he may see the truth of the Catholic faith, be truly sorry for his sins, and sincerely desire to die a good Catholic.
    Q. What do we say of those who receive such an extraordinary grace, and die in this manner?
    A. We say of them that they die united, at least, to the soul of the Catholic Church, and are saved.
    Q. What, then, awaits all those who are out of the Catholic Church, and die without having received such an extraordinary grace at the hour of death?
    A. Eternal damnation."

    So Muller certainly takes a more hardline view than Garrigou/Fenton( and myself) but even he says that one can be saved outside the Church, if through no fault of their own they have had no opportunity to enter it. The key difference between Muller and Brownson is that Muller is a priest/theologian, and a respectable scholar. He doesn't need to be vitriolic to get his point across
    Oh no. You're a disciple of steven speray? Ween yourself away from his "kool-aid", man, and you might find yourself back in the Catholic Religion one day--soon I hope. 

     

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