Catholic Info

Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Judith 15 Ten on February 20, 2019, 03:25:23 PM

Title: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Judith 15 Ten on February 20, 2019, 03:25:23 PM
I'd like to see the Catholic Church bring back multiple wives as an option for men who seek marriage like back in Abraham's and the early Hebrews' days. Righteous Abraham, King David and King Solomon had multiple wives. 

We know in Matthew 16:16-19, Jesus Christ gave Peter the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven to bind and loosen on earth, and the same will be bound and loosened in Heaven. This doesn't only mean retaining and forgiving sins, and rendering and lifting the temporal punishment tied to the sin. It, also, means "by making rules and laws for the government of the Church" as stated in the commentary of Haydock Catholic Bible apropos to the aforementioned scripture. It seems the number of wives allowed for a husband by the Church is a disciplinary law, which can change by what is deemed by the Successor of Peter, but Divine Law can never change (truth can't change - God can't change), and such Divine Law is for the man to remain faithful to his wife or wives and not commit adultery and fornication with women outside of his marriage(s), along with the other moral duties of the husband towards his wife or wives.

I think multiple wives is one of the solutions to, and hedges against, feminism and a contentious wife. Women naturally compete with each other to please the central figure in their lives, which in this case would be their husband, thereby, receiving the affection & security they desire from him. If other wives are in this same husband's life, she will not disgruntle him over trivial matters or for selfish reasons (which is all too common in marriages in this post-modern world), because his favor & affection will shift towards the other wives, although he must still love and support the wife with whom he has retracted much of his favor. Also, in a group setting with other women, these same women will usually check their inner resentments, objections, and dislikes for the other women in order to get along as a cohesive group, because they know their very survival depends on it. This is an intuitive defense mechanism of normal, healthy women in any group setting containing a plurality of women.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: St Paul on February 20, 2019, 03:41:56 PM
No way, no how.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Matthew on February 20, 2019, 03:45:07 PM
See, you've been listening to Pastor Dowell (the Hebrew Israelite "pastor") too long. You're starting to lose your Catholic sense.

You're taking matters into your own hands. First, you want to part ways with the historical praxis of the Church re: ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs. You want to go "old testament" on them and have them all executed. Now you want to push another novelty that tickles your fancy: multiple wives. What do you know, this also comes from the Old Testament! 

Pastor Dowell agrees with you 100% on both these points. Coincidence? I think not.

Sure, you can come up with reasons, even good sounding excuses, for both of these ideas. But so could Martin Luther. He had plenty of "justifications" at least on paper for what he did. 

Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: ihsv on February 20, 2019, 03:48:55 PM
It’s getting a little weird in here.  :furtive:
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Matthew on February 20, 2019, 03:55:28 PM
Now I see how heresiarchs got started. They identify a real problem, come up with a solution that makes a lot of sense, but unfortunately goes against the Church.

Eventually they leave the Church and start their own religion -- and the heresiarch manages to convince many to join him as followers, due to the rational arguments for his heresy (see the OP for an example).

If I had time, I could start 100 threads right now mocking this one, using actual heresies (sola scriptura, justification by faith alone, etc.) and giving all the rational arguments for each.

Sorry, bub. I'm not going to start my own religion or follow yours. I'm going to stay a Catholic, thanks. In the Catholic Church alone is the path to eternal life. There is no other way to please God.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: JezusDeKoning on February 20, 2019, 04:42:44 PM
First, the Puritans and now Muhammad. Alright then.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Ladislaus on February 20, 2019, 04:44:45 PM
See, you've been listening to Pastor Dowell (the Hebrew Israelite "pastor") too long. You're starting to lose your Catholic sense.

Just curious, Matthew, why do you let Croix/Quid keep signing back up after having been banned?  This is the second time I know of that he's created a new account after you banned him.

[Edited to Add] :  you're very quick with the downthumb, Croix.  You've been downthumbing every single post of mine for months now, under one identity or another.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Ladislaus on February 20, 2019, 04:50:56 PM
I'd like to see the Catholic Church bring back multiple wives as an option ...

Yes, we know you'd like to see this, given your background as a womanizer.  Yet it's ironic that a misogynist would want to have MANY women.  But I suppose that situation would allow him to use and abuse them at will.

In any case, one need not read the rest of your post after this opening line.  Abraham's situation was a DIVINE concession.  In the New Testament, one husband joined with one wife has become Divine Law since the time that Our Lord elevated the natural relations between man and woman to the state of a Sacrament.  So this is now the Divine Law.  And the Church has no power to "bind and loose" Divine Law.

[/thread]
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Judith 15 Ten on February 20, 2019, 04:51:05 PM
Now I see how heresiarchs got started. They identify a real problem, come up with a solution that makes a lot of sense, but unfortunately goes against the Church.

Eventually they leave the Church and start their own religion -- and the heresiarch manages to convince many to join him as followers, due to the rational arguments for his heresy (see the OP for an example).

If I had time, I could start 100 threads right now mocking this one, using actual heresies (sola scriptura, justification by faith alone, etc.) and giving all the rational arguments for each.

Sorry, bub. I'm not going to start my own religion or follow yours. I'm going to stay a Catholic, thanks. In the Catholic Church alone is the path to eternal life. There is no other way to please God.

I was just saying if the Catholic Church allowed multiple wives like God did in the Old Testament days for the early Hebrews, it would be a good thing, and obviously not heresy because the Catholic Church would have decreed it. I personally would like to see it, but I'm not going to start a polygamy cult because the Church hasn't done it. I'll stay Catholic and abide by whatever she teaches and the laws she puts forth.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: forlorn on February 20, 2019, 05:00:12 PM
Actually this does remind me of a question I had:

Why was polygamy allowed in Old Testament times? It wasn't only Abraham who had multiple wives, not by a long shot. 
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Ladislaus on February 20, 2019, 05:04:41 PM
Actually this does remind me of a question I had:

Why was polygamy allowed in Old Testament times? It wasn't only Abraham who had multiple wives, not by a long shot.

Our Lord Himself answered that question.  [same answer as for why God allowed divorce]
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Ladislaus on February 20, 2019, 05:08:38 PM
Neither divorce nor polygamy are strictly against natural law, and God did not will to impose Divine Law over and above this due to the "hardness of [their] hearts".  But in the New Testament, God established His divine law and elevated marriage to the state of a Sacrament.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: PAT317 on February 20, 2019, 05:45:27 PM
Quote
You're starting to lose your Catholic sense.
Did he ever have any? 


Just curious, Matthew, why do you let Croix/Quid keep signing back up after having been banned?
I was wondering that as well.


Quote
Why was polygamy allowed in Old Testament times? It wasn't only Abraham who had multiple wives, not by a long shot. 
Quote
Our Lord Himself answered that question.
"by reason of the hardness of your heart" - Matthew 19:8


Yes, we know you'd like to see this, given your background as a womanizer.  Yet it's ironic that a misogynist would want to have MANY women.  
Then, if they all divorced him (as he fears), he'd really have to pay a lot of alimony!     ;D
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: JezusDeKoning on February 20, 2019, 05:50:42 PM
I posted that Muhammad had come to the forum because Croix/Quid's views on women are not Catholic, they're more Islamic than anything.

Muslim men have carte blanche from their "prophet" to have multiple wives and be completely wretched to them -- that's what Muhammad did.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Seraphina on February 20, 2019, 05:56:35 PM
  This is a joke, right?  Most men can't get along with one!:fryingpan:
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: forlorn on February 20, 2019, 06:02:18 PM

*inferiority complex runs deeper than low self-esteem issues. The actual root of it is the sin of pride, which you have exhibited in various manifestations all too often.
You are so self-unaware it is physically painful.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Judith 15 Ten on February 20, 2019, 06:09:23 PM
You are so self-unaware it is physically painful.

No, I knew exactly that would be used against me from those of you suffering from envy. That still doesn't stop me from making my case because it's the truth.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: forlorn on February 20, 2019, 06:27:11 PM
No, I knew exactly that would be used against me from those of you suffering from envy. That still doesn't stop me from making my case because it's the truth.
It's just a pity then, that not even Our Lord ever spoke as highly of Himself as you do. Clearly He pales in your comparison. 
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: CestMoiJeanneMarie on February 20, 2019, 07:51:10 PM
This thread is absolute insanity. This is what happens thanks to the progressivist takeover of the Church. 

Judith 15 Ten, you are nuts. Since you seem to have a problem with Catholic doctrine, why don't you just become Mormon? If I'm not mistaken, they still have the FLDS down in Arizona that practices polygamy.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: St Paul on February 20, 2019, 08:31:09 PM

Judith 15 Ten, you are nuts. 

There is something seriously wrong in his background to behave the way he does.  Pray for him.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: CestMoiJeanneMarie on February 20, 2019, 08:32:55 PM
Logical fallacy driven by unreasonable female emotions. Try refuting anything I said instead of yapping and emoting vacuous ad hominems.
Yeah, good luck getting multiple wives Mr. Judith15Ten, since you dismiss my post as "yapping" based on "unreasonable female emotions". This is the sure way to win the heart of ladies - take notes gentlemen.

If you are in favor of polygamy, you reject Catholic doctrine. Period. Polygamy is incompatible with Catholic doctrine - any reasonable Catholic with an ounce of doctrinal knowledge knows this. 

Here's some proof that is not based on "unreasonable female emotions"---

Council of Trent, Session 24, Canon 2 (http://www.docuмentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/1545-1545,_Concilium_Tridentinum,_Canons_And_Decrees,_EN.pdf) (see page 146):

"If any one saith, that it is lawful for Christians to have several wives at the same time, and that this is not prohibited by any divine law; let him be anathema."
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Judith 15 Ten on February 20, 2019, 09:55:38 PM
Yeah, good luck getting multiple wives Mr. Judith15Ten, since you dismiss my post as "yapping" based on "unreasonable female emotions". This is the sure way to win the heart of ladies - take notes gentlemen.

If you are in favor of polygamy, you reject Catholic doctrine. Period. Polygamy is incompatible with Catholic doctrine - any reasonable Catholic with an ounce of doctrinal knowledge knows this.

Here's some proof that is not based on "unreasonable female emotions"---

Council of Trent, Session 24, Canon 2 (http://www.docuмentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/1545-1545,_Concilium_Tridentinum,_Canons_And_Decrees,_EN.pdf) (see page 146):

"If any one saith, that it is lawful for Christians to have several wives at the same time, and that this is not prohibited by any divine law; let him be anathema."

Another strawman argument. That's two logical fallacies in a row. I never said there should be multiple wives outside the Church. I said if the Successor of Peter, who holds the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven and, thus, can loosen the one wife restriction to multiple wives as licit, just as multiple wives were allowed by God in the Old Testament, it would be good, especially in combating feminism as being one of the good reasons. Also, I never said that I'd personally take on multiple wives, if the Church returned to the marital order of the Old Testament. That anathema is in effect because the law is that man can only have one wife, and if anyone says they can have more than one wife despite the existing law, they are in anathema, but *** IT DOESN'T PRECLUDE *** the Church from loosening the one wife restriction to multiple wives for a single husband just as it was in the OT. That's what you fail to differentiate.

Let me repeat that last imperative part: the existing law DOESN'T PRECLUDE the Church (the Vicar of Christ) from using the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven to loosen the one wife restriction to multiple wives for a single husband just as it was in the Old Testament. That's what you fail to understand.

Also, the Divine Law aspect is in regard to being faithful to the wife because only one wife is allowed, and any relations with other women outside of that marriage is adultery and fornication, which is violation of Divine Law. But the disciplinary part of the law can either continue to be bound or loosened, thereby, sustaining one wife or allowing multiple wives, by the Successor of Peter who holds the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Caraffa on February 20, 2019, 10:05:09 PM
One can only find this kind of nonsense on Cathinfo. Unbelievable

That's because Cathinfo isn't a politically correct site. Advocating polygamy pales in comparison to the acceptance of transgenderism (both the Neo-SSPX and the proto-sjw FE from years back).
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Carissima on February 20, 2019, 10:31:20 PM
A man/husband cannot be two in one flesh with many. 

OP needs to take this matter up with Christ if it doesn’t work for him. 


Mark 10:2-9
2 (https://biblehub.com/mark/10-2.htm)And the Pharisees coming to him asked him: Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.  3 (https://biblehub.com/mark/10-3.htm)But he answering, saith to them: What did Moses command you?  4 (https://biblehub.com/mark/10-4.htm)Who said: Moses permitted to write a bill of divorce, and to put her away. 5 (https://biblehub.com/mark/10-5.htm)To whom Jesus answering, said: Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you that precept.  6 (https://biblehub.com/mark/10-6.htm)But from the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female.  7 (https://biblehub.com/mark/10-7.htm)For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother; and shall cleave to his wife8 (https://biblehub.com/mark/10-8.htm)And they two shall be in one flesh. Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh.  9 (https://biblehub.com/mark/10-9.htm)What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Judith 15 Ten on February 20, 2019, 10:37:04 PM
A man/husband cannot be two in one flesh with many.

OP needs to take this matter up with Christ if it doesn’t work for him.


Mark 10:2-9
2 (https://biblehub.com/mark/10-2.htm)And the Pharisees coming to him asked him: Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.  3 (https://biblehub.com/mark/10-3.htm)But he answering, saith to them: What did Moses command you?  4 (https://biblehub.com/mark/10-4.htm)Who said: Moses permitted to write a bill of divorce, and to put her away. 5 (https://biblehub.com/mark/10-5.htm)To whom Jesus answering, said: Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you that precept.  6 (https://biblehub.com/mark/10-6.htm)But from the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female.  7 (https://biblehub.com/mark/10-7.htm)For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother; and shall cleave to his wife. 8 (https://biblehub.com/mark/10-8.htm)And they two shall be in one flesh. Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh.  9 (https://biblehub.com/mark/10-9.htm)What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Christ never said "three or four or five cannot be one flesh". The reason is because he would be condemning King David, Solomon and Righteous Abraham, all of whom had multiple wives.

There is no Divine Law precluding the Church from returning to the marital order of the Old Testament days. The Vicar of Christ can use the Keys to loosen the one wife restriction to multiple wives.

The Divine Law that exists as defined by Trent is honoring the existing wife, whereby that marriage is currently confined to one husband - one wife. Both spouses must have fidelity, love and faithfulness to one another, because God Himself is true fidelity, love, faithfulness - eternal. Any relations with another person outside of the marriage, which is confined to what the Church allows, is a violation of that Divine Law. It breaks the Commandment "thou shalt not commit adultery" . But the Church can bind or loosen how many wives are permitted for the husband, and the Commandment applies the same way for the husband and all wives involved.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Vintagewife3 on February 21, 2019, 01:13:08 PM
Saint Thomas “Summa theologica”


Whether it is against the natural law to have several wives?

  Objection 1: It would seem that it is not against the natural law to have several wives. For custom does not prejudice the law of nature. But "it was not a sin" to have several wives "when this was the custom," according to Augustine (De Bono Conjug. xv) as quoted in the text (Sent. iv, D, 33). Therefore it is not contrary to the natural law to have several wives.
  Objection 2: Further, whoever acts in opposition to the natural law, disobeys a commandment, for the law of nature has its commandments even as the written law has. Now Augustine says (De Bono Conjug. xv; De Civ. Dei xv, 38) that "it was not contrary to a commandment" to have several wives, "because by no law was it forbidden." Therefore it is not against the natural law to have several wives.
  Objection 3: Further, marriage is chiefly directed to the begetting of offspring. But one man may get children of several women, by causing them to be pregnant. Therefore It is not against the natural law to have several wives.
  Objection 4: Further, "Natural right is that which nature has taught all animals," as stated at the beginning of the Digests (1, i, ff. De just. et jure). Now nature has not taught all animals that one male should be united to but one female, since with many animals the one male is united to several females. Therefore it is not against the natural law to have several wives.
  Objection 5: Further, according to the Philosopher (De Gener. Animal. i, 20), in the begetting of offspring the male is to the female as agent to patient, and as the craftsman is to his material. But it is not against the order of nature for one agent to act on several patients, or for one craftsman to work in several materials. Therefore neither is it contrary to the law of nature for one husband to have many wives.
  Objection 6: On the contrary, That which was instilled into man at the formation of human nature would seem especially to belong to the natural law. Now it was instilled into him at the very formation of human nature that one man should have one wife, according to Gn. 2:24, "They shall be two in one flesh." Therefore it is of natural law.
  Objection 7: Further, it is contrary to the law of nature that man should bind himself to the impossible, and that what is given to one should be given to another. Now when a man contracts with a wife, he gives her the power of his body, so that he is bound to pay her the debt when she asks. Therefore it is against the law of nature that he should afterwards give the power of his body to another, because it would be impossible for him to pay both were both to ask at the same time.
  Objection 8: Further, "Do not to another what thou wouldst not were done to thyself" [*Cf. Tobias 4:16] is a precept of the natural law. But a husband would by no means be willing for his wife to have another husband. Therefore he would be acting against the law of nature, were he to have another wife in addition.
  Objection 9: Further, whatever is against the natural desire is contrary to the natural law. Now a husband's jealousy of his wife and the wife's jealousy of her husband are natural, for they are found in all. Therefore, since jealousy is "love impatient of sharing the beloved," it would seem to be contrary to the natural law that several wives should share one husband.
  I answer that, All natural things are imbued with certain principles whereby they are enabled not only to exercise their proper actions, but also to render those actions proportionate to their end, whether such actions belong to a thing by virtue of its generic nature, or by virtue of its specific nature: thus it belongs to a magnet to be borne downwards by virtue of its generic nature, and to attract iron by virtue of its specific nature. Now just as in those things which act from natural necessity the principle of action is the form itself, whence their proper actions proceed proportionately to their end, so in things which are endowed with knowledge the principles of action are knowledge and appetite. Hence in the cognitive power there needs to be a natural concept, and in the appetitive power a natural inclination, whereby the action befitting the genus or species is rendered proportionate to the end. Now since man, of all animals, knows the aspect of the end, and the proportion of the action to the end, it follows that he is imbued with a natural concept, whereby he is directed to act in a befitting manner, and this is called "the natural law" or "the natural right," but in other animals "the natural instinct." For brutes are rather impelled by the force of nature to do befitting actions, than guided to act on their own judgment. Therefore the natural law is nothing else than a concept naturally instilled into man, whereby he is guided to act in a befitting manner in his proper actions, whether they are competent to him by virtue of his generic nature, as, for instance, to beget, to eat, and so on, or belong to him by virtue of his specific nature, as, for instance, to reason and so forth. Now whatever renders an action improportionate to the end which nature intends to obtain by a certain work is said to be contrary to the natural law. But an action may be improportionate either to the principal or to the secondary end, and in either case this happens in two ways. First, on account of something which wholly hinders the end; for instance a very great excess or a very great deficiency in eating hinders both the health of the body, which is the principal end of food, and aptitude for conducting business, which is its secondary end. Secondly, on account of something that renders the attainment of the principal or secondary end difficult, or less satisfactory, for instance eating inordinately in respect of undue time. Accordingly if an action be improportionate to the end, through altogether hindering the principal end directly, it is forbidden by the first precepts of the natural law, which hold the same place in practical matters, as the general concepts of the mind in speculative matters. If, however, it be in any way improportionate to the secondary end, or again to the principal end, as rendering its attainment difficult or less satisfactory, it is forbidden, not indeed by the first precepts of the natural law, but by the second which are derived from the first even as conclusions in speculative matters receive our assent by virtue of self-known principles: and thus the act in question is said to be against the law of nature.
   Now marriage has for its principal end the begetting and rearing of children, and this end is competent to man according to his generic nature, wherefore it is common to other animals (Ethic. viii, 12), and thus it is that the "offspring" is assigned as a marriage good. But for its secondary end, as the Philosopher says (Ethic. viii, 12), it has, among men alone, the community of works that are a necessity of life, as stated above (Question [41] (https://dhspriory.org/thomas/summa/XP/XP041.html#XPQ41OUTP1), Article [1] (https://dhspriory.org/thomas/summa/XP/XP041.html#XPQ41A1THEP1)). And in reference to this they owe one another "fidelity" which is one of the goods of marriage. Furthermore it has another end, as regards marriage between believers, namely the signification of Christ and the Church: and thus the "sacrament" is said to be a marriage good. Wherefore the first end corresponds to the marriage of man inasmuch as he is an animal: the second, inasmuch as he is a man; the third, inasmuch as he is a believer. Accordingly plurality of wives neither wholly destroys nor in any way hinders the first end of marriage, since one man is sufficient to get children of several wives, and to rear the children born of them. But though it does not wholly destroy the second end, it hinders it considerably for there cannot easily be peace in a family where several wives are joined to one husband, since one husband cannot suffice to satisfy the requisitions of several wives, and again because the sharing of several in one occupation is a cause of strife: thus "potters quarrel with one another" [*Aristotle, Rhet. ii, 4], and in like manner the several wives of one husband. The third end, it removes altogether, because as Christ is one, so also is the Church one. It is therefore evident from what has been said that plurality of wives is in a way against the law of nature, and in a way not against it.
  Reply to Objection 1: Custom does not prejudice the law of nature as regards the first precepts of the latter, which are like the general concepts of the mind in speculative matters. But those which are drawn like conclusions from these custom enforces, as Tully declares (De Inv. Rhet. ii), or weakens. Such is the precept of nature in the matter of having one wife.
  Reply to Objection 2: As Tully says (De Inv. Rhet. ii), "fear of the law and religion have sanctioned those things that come from nature and are approved by custom." Wherefore it is evident that those dictates of the natural law, which are derived from the first principles as it were of the natural law, have not the binding force of an absolute commandment, except when they have been sanctioned by Divine or human law. This is what Augustine means by saying that "they did not disobey the commandments of the law, since it was not forbidden by any law."
   The Reply to the Third Objection follows from what has been said.
  Reply to Objection 4: Natural right has several significations. First a right is said to be natural by its principle, because it is instilled by nature: and thus Tully defines it (De Inv. Rhet. ii) when he says: "Natural right is not the result of opinion but the product of an innate force." And since even in natural things certain movements are called natural, not that they be from an intrinsic principle, but because they are from a higher moving principle---thus the movements that are caused in the elements by the impress of heavenly bodies are said to be natural, as the Commentator states (De Coelo et Mundo iii, 28), therefore those things that are of Divine right are said to be of natural right, because they are caused by the impress and influence of a higher principle, namely God. Isidore takes it in this sense, when he says (Etym. v) that "the natural right is that which is contained in the Law and the Gospel." Thirdly, right is said to be natural not only from its principle but also from its matter, because it is about natural things. And since nature is contradistinguished with reason, whereby man is a man, it follows that if we take natural right in its strictest sense, those things which are dictated by natural reason and pertain to man alone are not said to be of natural right, but only those which are dictated by natural reason and are common to man and other animals. Thus we have the aforesaid definition, namely: "Natural right is what nature has taught all animals." Accordingly plurality of wives, though not contrary to natural right taken in the third sense, is nevertheless against natural right taken in the second sense, because it is forbidden by the Divine law. It is also against natural right taken in the first sense, as appears from what has been said, for such is nature's dictate to every animal according to the mode befitting its nature. Wherefore also certain animals, the rearing of whose offspring demands the care of both, namely the male and female, by natural instinct cling to the union of one with one, for instance the turtle-dove, the dove, and so forth.
   The Reply to the Fifth Objection is clear from what has been said.
   Since, however, the arguments adduced "on the contrary side" would seem to show that plurality of wives is against the first principles of the natural law, we must reply to them.
   Accordingly we reply to the Sixth Objection that human nature was founded without any defect, and consequently it is endowed not only with those things without which the principal end of marriage is impossible of attainment, but also with those without which the secondary end of marriage could not be obtained without difficulty: and in this way it sufficed man when he was first formed to have one wife, as stated above.
  Reply to Objection 7: In marriage the husband gives his wife power of his body, not in all respects, but only in those things that are required by marriage. Now marriage does not require the husband to pay the debt every time his wife asks for it, if we consider the principal end for which marriage was instituted, namely the good of the offspring, but only as far as is necessary for impregnation. But in so far as it is instituted as a remedy (which is its secondary end), marriage does require the debt to be paid at all times on being asked for. Hence it is evident that by taking several wives a man does not bind himself to the impossible, considering the principal end of marriage; and therefore plurality of wives is not against the first principles of the natural law. 
  Reply to Objection 8: This precept of the natural law, "Do not to another what thou wouldst not were done to thyself," should be understood with the proviso that there be equal proportion. For if a superior is unwilling to be withstood by his subject, he is not therefore bound not to withstand his subject. Hence it does not follow in virtue of this precept that as a husband is unwilling for his wife to have another husband, he must not have another wife: because for one man to have several wives is not contrary to the first principles of the natural law, as stated above: whereas for one wife to have several husbands is contrary to the first principles of the natural law, since thereby the good of the offspring which is the principal end of marriage is, in one respect, entirely destroyed, and in another respect hindered. For the good of the offspring means not only begetting, but also rearing. Now the begetting of offspring, though not wholly voided (since a woman may be impregnated a second time after impregnation has already taken place, as stated in De Gener. Animal. vii. 4), is nevertheless considerably hindered, because this can scarcely happen without injury either to both fetus or to one of them. But the rearing of the offspring is altogether done away, because as a result of one woman having several husbands there follows uncertainty of the offspring in relation to its father, whose care is necessary for its education. Wherefore the marriage of one wife with several husbands has not been sanctioned by any law or custom, whereas the converse has been.
  Reply to Objection 9: The natural inclination in the appetitive power follows the natural concept in the cognitive power. And since it is not so much opposed to the natural concept for a man to have several wives as for a wife to have several husbands, it follows that a wife's love is not so averse to another sharing the same husband with her, as a husband's love is to another sharing the same wife with him. Consequently both in man and in other animals the male is more jealous of the female than "vice versa."
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Vintagewife3 on February 21, 2019, 01:18:14 PM
Link here : https://dhspriory.org/thomas/summa/XP/XP065.html#XPQ65OUTP1 (https://dhspriory.org/thomas/summa/XP/XP065.html#XPQ65OUTP1)
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Nadir on February 21, 2019, 04:18:40 PM
Before you get multiple wives you gotta get one.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: ihsv on February 21, 2019, 04:23:39 PM
Before you get multiple wives you gotta get one.

 :laugh1: 
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Cantarella on February 21, 2019, 05:18:54 PM
The Church already settled that matter infallibly in the Council of Trent:

On the Sacrament of Matrimony:

Quote
CANON II.-If any one saith, that it is lawful for Christians to have several wives at the same time, and that this is not prohibited by any divine law; let him be anathema.

Anyone who stubbornly doubts or denies the above incurs in heresy against the Faith, given the status of this canon, which is Dogma.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: B from A on February 21, 2019, 07:06:48 PM
Before you get multiple wives you gotta get one.

:laugh1: 
:laugh1:
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Judith 15 Ten on February 21, 2019, 07:07:49 PM
The Successor of Peter holds the Keys (Matthew 16:16-19), and he can loosen the one wife restriction to allowing multiple wives like the marital order of the Old Testament (the fact that Abraham, David, Solomon, et al, had multiple wives proves it's not inherently bad).

Canon II of Trent speaks of the current law (which can change by the pope using the Keys) because having relations and fake "marriages" outside of the current one husband - one wife law is adultery.

That's the bottom line. Most everything else people said on this thread is either missing the forest for the trees, ad hominem fallacy, red herring fallacy and strawman fallacy
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Matto on February 21, 2019, 07:18:06 PM
I am not sure if it is true, but I have heard it claimed that the Catholic Bishops of Paraguay allowed the men of that country to take on multiple wives after the War of the Triple Alliance where most of the country's men were killed because there were many more women than men left alive after the war was over. I don't know if this is true but I have heard the claim made.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Vintagewife3 on February 21, 2019, 07:31:41 PM
Do you really believe it would lead to a harmonious marriage?
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: dymphnaw on February 21, 2019, 08:53:04 PM
Multiple wives?  Why on earth would the Church reduce woman to the level of a Mormon or a Muslima? As for the patriarchs, was there ever a happy home with multiple wives in the Bible. Leah and Rachel were at each other's throats.  Hagar and Sarah weren't happy together. David's wives were in constant competition. Solomon's wives led him away from proper worship. Finally, when did Our Lord ever say that it was okay to have more than one woman?
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: jen51 on February 22, 2019, 04:30:52 AM
I couldn't bare the thought of another woman being with my husband. It would be a sad and miserable existence. I can't imagine how women who share their husbands must feel, or NOT feel. It would be a shame to never experience the loyalty and companionship of husband and wife yet still be married. I'm grateful our culture and religion forbids it.

Not only that it's just.... Gross. Really gross. I mean, who in their right mind would be comfortable with having multiple "partners" or being married to someone who does? 
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: ihsv on February 22, 2019, 07:47:39 AM
I'd like to see the Catholic Church bring back multiple wives as an option for men who seek marriage like back in Abraham's and the early Hebrews' days. Righteous Abraham, King David and King Solomon had multiple wives.  

We know in Matthew 16:16-19, Jesus Christ gave Peter the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven to bind and loosen on earth, and the same will be bound and loosened in Heaven. This doesn't only mean retaining and forgiving sins, and rendering and lifting the temporal punishment tied to the sin. It, also, means "by making rules and laws for the government of the Church" as stated in the commentary of Haydock Catholic Bible apropos to the aforementioned scripture. It seems the number of wives allowed for a husband by the Church is a disciplinary law, which can change by what is deemed by the Successor of Peter, but Divine Law can never change (truth can't change - God can't change), and such Divine Law is for the man to remain faithful to his wife or wives and not commit adultery and fornication with women outside of his marriage(s), along with the other moral duties of the husband towards his wife or wives.

I think multiple wives is one of the solutions to, and hedges against, feminism and a contentious wife. Women naturally compete with each other to please the central figure in their lives, which in this case would be their husband, thereby, receiving the affection & security they desire from him. If other wives are in this same husband's life, she will not disgruntle him over trivial matters or for selfish reasons (which is all too common in marriages in this post-modern world), because his favor & affection will shift towards the other wives, although he must still love and support the wife with whom he has retracted much of his favor. Also, in a group setting with other women, these same women will usually check their inner resentments, objections, and dislikes for the other women in order to get along as a cohesive group, because they know their very survival depends on it. This is an intuitive defense mechanism of normal, healthy women in any group setting containing a plurality of women.

Judith/Croix, whether you realize it or not, you have some serious spiritual issues.  This proposition to have multiple wives is founded on lust, and the veneer of noble-sounding goals and clever justifications only advertises the fact.  No one here is deceived by your senseless arguments, least of all God.

From the moment that canon from Trent that another poster provided showed up on this board, you should have immediately acquiesced and adjusted your beliefs to match what the Church decrees.  Instead, you dig in your heels and double-down.  This isn't surprising, since St. Thomas points out that the vice most opposed to the virtue of faith is impurity.  He also explains that impurity bedims the intellect.  I need make no further comments on that.

Furthermore, I have never run into any spiritual writer, theologian, saint, etc., who argues what you do.  You're alone in your views, and that should scare you.

You have a very pagan view of the Sacrament of Matrimony, grounded in the dust of the earth rather than the teachings of Christ.  St. Paul tells us that Matrimony is a great sacrament, intended to mirror the union between Christ and his Church.  Does Christ have multiple churches?   This is a view I would expect from Bergoglio, not advocated for here.

It is demeaning to men.  Even more-so to women, reducing them to objects meant to "please the central figure in their lives... their husbands".  Pure paganism.  It completely negates the noble state that Christ has raised women (and men) to by virtue of the Sacrament of Matrimony.   Your justifications and explanations on why this would be "good" are founded entirely on the concupiscible passions, relying on competition, jealousy, favor and selfishness to achieve peace, happiness, etc.  Impossible.  No mention of the Christian virtues.  No mention of charity, humility, patience, meekness, self-sacrifice, etc.

I've seen you complain on these boards that there aren't any good girls out there.  They're all infected with feminism, etc.  The reality is, the good ones can smell the stench of base passions a mile away, and none of them would have anything to do with such a man.

And as Jen51 pointed out, it's disgusting.  

This thread needs to die.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: PAT317 on February 22, 2019, 08:14:53 AM
Judith/Croix, whether you realize it or not, you have some serious spiritual issues.  This proposition to have multiple wives is founded on lust, and the veneer of noble-sounding goals and clever justifications only advertises the fact.  No one here is deceived by your senseless arguments, least of all God.

From the moment that canon from Trent that another poster provided showed up on this board, you should have immediately acquiesced and adjusted your beliefs to match what the Church decrees.  Instead, you dig in your heels and double-down.  This isn't surprising, since St. Thomas points out that the vice most opposed to the virtue of faith is impurity.  He also explains that impurity bedims the intellect.  I need make no further comments on that.

Furthermore, I have never run into any spiritual writer, theologian, saint, etc., who argues what you do.  You're alone in your views, and that should scare you.

You have a very pagan view of the Sacrament of Matrimony, grounded in the dust of the earth rather than the teachings of Christ.  St. Paul tells us that Matrimony is a great sacrament, intended to mirror the union between Christ and his Church.  Does Christ have multiple churches?   This is a view I would expect from Bergoglio, not advocated for here.

It is demeaning to men.  Even more-so to women, reducing them to objects meant to "please the central figure in their lives... their husbands".  Pure paganism.  It completely negates the noble state that Christ has raised women (and men) to by virtue of the Sacrament of Matrimony.   Your justifications and explanations on why this would be "good" are founded entirely on the concupiscible passions, relying on competition, jealousy, favor and selfishness to achieve peace, happiness, etc.  Impossible.  No mention of the Christian virtues.  No mention of charity, humility, patience, meekness, self-sacrifice, etc.

I've seen you complain on these boards that there aren't any good girls out there.  They're all infected with feminism, etc.  The reality is, the good ones can smell the stench of base passions a mile away, and none of them would have anything to do with such a man.

And as Jen51 pointed out, it's disgusting.  

This thread needs to die.
.
:applause:
.
Quote
This thread needs to die.
.
As does Judith/Croix's CI membership, permanently.  
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Vintagewife3 on February 22, 2019, 08:22:42 AM
The last 3-4 post here  :applause:

You guys are very well spoken.

I would find it gross for sharing my husband as any man would sharing his wife.

Christ, and the church have never been oppressive to women. They were not to be treated as cattle. 
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Ladislaus on February 22, 2019, 08:35:09 AM
Canon II of Trent speaks of the current law (which can change by the pope using the Keys) because having relations and fake "marriages" outside of the current one husband - one wife law is adultery.

Trent teaches that one man and one woman is DIVINE LAW.  As I explained to you in my first post, the Church CANNOT "bind or loose" divine law.  Period.  End of thread.  While polygamy is not necessarily opposed to natural law, God chose not to impose the divine law prior to the arrival of Our Lord due to the hardness of their hearts.

You have very much shown yourself to be a misogynist (we know that you're Croix/Quid returning for a 3rd time after having been banned), yet you would have many of these inferior creatures around you.  Only explanation that makes sense is the one put forward by ihsv, that it's driven by lust.

I have stated over and over again here on CI that it's almost always the case that misogynists actually struggle with impurity, a way in which the find themselves dominated by women (though their passions).  Consequently, they lash out violently against women and wish to beat them down and oppress them.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Ladislaus on February 22, 2019, 08:54:44 AM
Well, although my wife doesn't have an account here, and just lurks (I've encouraged her to sign up before), I just have to post her comment:


Quote
If Croix did have multiple wives, then I'm sure they would all be thankful for the fact that there was more than one.  I'm sure they'd all be infighting - not to be his favorite but to be his least favorite

It's your turn - no, it's your turn - he likes YOU better, no he likes YOU better.  You can have him tonight, no thank you I insist YOU have him.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Matthew on February 22, 2019, 09:00:24 AM
Trent teaches that one man and one woman is DIVINE LAW.  As I explained to you in my first post, the Church CANNOT "bind or loose" divine law.  Period.  End of thread.  While polygamy is not necessarily opposed to natural law, God chose not to impose the divine law prior to the arrival of Our Lord due to the hardness of their hearts.

You have very much shown yourself to be a misogynist, yet you would have many of these inferior creatures around you.  Only explanation that makes sense is the one put forward by ihsv, that it's driven by lust.

I have stated over and over again here on CI that it's almost always the case that misogynists actually struggle with impurity, a way in which the find themselves dominated by women (though their passions).  Consequently, they lash out violently against women and wish to beat them down and oppress them.
VERY on-target and well said. There is no chance that Ladislaus is wrong about any of this.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Matto on February 22, 2019, 10:34:42 AM
I am a misogynist by normie standards. But I do not hate women at all in reality, in fact I love them so much that often it hurts. I do not think Croix really hates women. I just think he is reacting to feminism and the world's erection of the female into an idol against all reason. I have noticed this even in the anti-feminist world such as among trad-dom. I think there is a tendency to view Christian women as almost un-fallen. I do not often struggle with sins of impurity even though I am a "misogynist" (though I used to sin in that way often in the past) and I would not accuse Croix of that either even though those sins are common. Of course, as with charges of anti-semitism I tend to err on the side of exoneration. Perhaps we should gather around Croix and cry out in unison "Who hurt you?"
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Ladislaus on February 22, 2019, 10:49:36 AM
I do not think Croix really hates women.

I disagree.  There have been just too many comments in his posting history that lead me to the opposite conclusion.  He is clearly not just standing up, as a matter or principle, against feminism.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Cantarella on February 22, 2019, 02:02:05 PM
The Successor of Peter holds the Keys (Matthew 16:16-19), and he can loosen the one wife restriction to allowing multiple wives like the marital order of the Old Testament (the fact that Abraham, David, Solomon, et al, had multiple wives proves it's not inherently bad).

Canon II of Trent speaks of the current law (which can change by the pope using the Keys) because having relations and fake "marriages" outside of the current one husband - one wife law is adultery.

Not even the Pope, the Vicar of Christ on earth himself, has the power to change what the Church has defined infallibly, such as a Tridentine Canon. Canons are dogmas of the Faith. They do not concern disciplinary or temporary affairs; but are dogmatic, which means they are true for ever. These truths are immutable.

Popes can only revise or alter disciplinary matters and sometimes even override each other pertaining those, but they cannot touch dogmas. The Catholic Church has already condemned Polygamy in the Council of Trent; and this is a dogmatic infallible truth. For the good of your soul, it is best to put this issue to rest.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Nadir on February 22, 2019, 03:02:18 PM
I am a misogynist by normie standards. But I do not hate women at all in reality, in fact I love them so much that often it hurts. I do not think Croix really hates women. I just think he is reacting to feminism and the world's erection of the female into an idol against all reason. I have noticed this even in the anti-feminist world such as among trad-dom. I think there is a tendency to view Christian women as almost un-fallen. I do not often struggle with sins of impurity even though I am a "misogynist" (though I used to sin in that way often in the past) and I would not accuse Croix of that either even though those sins are common. Of course, as with charges of anti-semitism I tend to err on the side of exoneration. Perhaps we should gather around Croix and cry out in unison "Who hurt you?"
Matto, your post makes me wonder if you know the meaning of mi·sog·y·nist
[mi-soj-uh-nist, mahy‐]

NOUN
1.
a person who hates, dislikes, mistrusts, or mistreats women.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Matto on February 22, 2019, 03:21:19 PM
Matto, your post makes me wonder if you know the meaning of mi·sog·y·nist
[mi-soj-uh-nist, mahy‐]

NOUN
1.
a person who hates, dislikes, mistrusts, or mistreats women.

My definition of misogynist is simply a man who hates women. I think the "normie" definition is a man who does not idolize women.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Matthew on February 22, 2019, 03:37:26 PM
My definition of misogynist is simply a man who hates women. I think the "normie" definition is a man who does not idolize women.

Yes, but we can distinguish, just like "αnтι-ѕємιтє" or "racist".
If racism is "acknowledging and celebrating differences between the races" then racism is good.
If racism is "hatred, cruelty and violence towards individuals of races you consider inferior" then it's obviously gravely sinful, because it is a form of hatred.

Same for anti-Semitism. If it means "opposing the machinations of the тαℓмυdic Jєωs unto world domination, the advent of the Antichrist, exposing their cօռspιʀαcιҽs" then it's positively virtuous. But if it means cruelty and violence against individual Jєωs (who probably have nothing to do with the global conspiracy) then it's obviously sinful.

Same with misogyny.

When a CathInfo member calls someone "misogynist", they mean a TRUE misogynist -- one who has a serious problem with women, which could best be described as a hatred (i.e., they can do nothing right).

None of us give any credence to the watered down "normie" definitions of these terms. According to the MSM, every Trump supporter (numbering in the tens of millions) is a racist. Obviously THAT kind of "racist" can't mean much, if it has to apply to so many good people, VIRTUALLY ALL of whom aren't truly racist at all.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Ladislaus on February 22, 2019, 03:41:45 PM
My definition of misogynist is simply a man who hates women. I think the "normie" definition is a man who does not idolize women.

I think that the appropriate definitions involves something in between ... a contempt for women in general (vs. particular women).  Yes, the feminists might consider anything short of woman-worship to be misogyny.  But there are degrees of misogyny which fall well short of having a Satan-like hatred of women.  It's clear to me that Croix holds women in contempt, and so I would label him a misogynist.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Judith 15 Ten on February 22, 2019, 08:07:21 PM
  It's clear to me that Croix holds women in contempt, and so I would label him a misogynist.

#softy
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Judith 15 Ten on February 22, 2019, 08:08:21 PM


You have very much shown yourself to be a misogynist (we know that you're Croix/Quid returning for a 3rd time after having been banned), yet you would have many of these inferior creatures around you.  Only explanation that makes sense is the one put forward by ihsv, that it's driven by lust.



#overweight
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Judith 15 Ten on February 22, 2019, 08:09:39 PM
Well, although my wife doesn't have an account here, and just lurks (I've encouraged her to sign up before), I just have to post her comment:

#impotency
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Judith 15 Ten on February 22, 2019, 08:12:51 PM
Not even the Pope, the Vicar of Christ on earth himself, has the power to change what the Church has defined infallibly, such as a Tridentine Canon. Canons are dogmas of the Faith. They do not concern disciplinary or temporary affairs; but are dogmatic, which means they are true for ever. These truths are immutable.

Popes can only revise or alter disciplinary matters and sometimes even override each other pertaining those, but they cannot touch dogmas. The Catholic Church has already condemned Polygamy in the Council of Trent; and this is a dogmatic infallible truth. For the good of your soul, it is best to put this issue to rest.

Not all of Trent was ex cathdedra, and no catechism is ex cathedra.

Where in Trent does it say that it's ex cathedra that the pope can't loosen the one wife restriction to multiple wives? It's saying that the current law of marriage between one man and one wife must be lived faithfully as the Sacrament of Marriage, but it doesn't say the pope can't make the Sacrament of Marriage like the marital order of the early Hebrews, which God allowed as men having multiple wives.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Stanley N on February 22, 2019, 08:56:32 PM
I am not sure if it is true, but I have heard it claimed that the Catholic Bishops of Paraguay allowed the men of that country to take on multiple wives after the War of the Triple Alliance where most of the country's men were killed because there were many more women than men left alive after the war was over. I don't know if this is true but I have heard the claim made.
There doesn't appear to be any record of the bishops or Rome permitting polygamy in Paraguay. It is possibly anti-Catholic propaganda, or possibly a misinterpretation of something else.

Parts of Africa culturally and legally accept polygamy, but the Church never let converts in Africa practice polygamy after conversion. If the Church could allow exceptions, I think exceptions would have shown up in Africa.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Nadir on February 22, 2019, 09:16:21 PM
#overweight
# cuddly
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Pax Vobis on February 22, 2019, 09:23:07 PM
Quote
but Trent doesn't say the pope can't make the Sacrament of Marriage like the marital order of the early Hebrews, which God allowed as men having multiple wives.
Matt 19:8 - Christ clearly explains that Moses allowed multiple wives because of the joos’ “hardness of heart”, yet He says, “from the beginning it was not so.”  Ergo this was an exception.

The new law is a perfection of the old.  Thus, Christ did away with marital exceptions and the Church has reiterated His teachings.  When Trent says that polygamy is against the Divine Law, followed by an anathema, that means it’s dogma.  Case closed.

It’s a spiritual principle that one cannot go backwards in the spiritual life.  Thus, in the spiritual progress of the history of mankind, from old law to new, God (through His Church) will not allow poligamy or divorce again.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Judith 15 Ten on February 22, 2019, 09:25:36 PM
Matt 19:8 - Christ clearly explains that Moses allowed multiple wives because of the joos’ “hardness of heart”, yet He says, “from the beginning it was not so.”


Wrong analysis. He's stating that divorce is now illegal and it can't be made permissible under the New Law.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Nadir on February 22, 2019, 09:45:13 PM
My definition of misogynist is simply a man who hates women. I think the "normie" definition is a man who does not idolize women.
Thanks Matto. I'll take it to "Spelling Challenge".
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Pax Vobis on February 22, 2019, 10:23:16 PM

Quote
Wrong analysis. 
No, it applies to polygamy as well because Christ refers to “the beginning” (ie Eden) to show that God designed marriage as between 1 man and 1 woman.  The old law had exceptions for both divorce and polygamy, yet Christ is saying this was/is not God's true plan.  The new law no longer allows either exception.  This is a divine law, which no pope can rescind.  New law, new rules. 
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: ihsv on February 22, 2019, 11:28:29 PM
Not all of Trent was ex cathdedra, and no catechism is ex cathedra.

Where in Trent does it say that it's ex cathedra that the pope can't loosen the one wife restriction to multiple wives? It's saying that the current law of marriage between one man and one wife must be lived faithfully as the Sacrament of Marriage, but it doesn't say the pope can't make the Sacrament of Marriage like the marital order of the early Hebrews, which God allowed as men having multiple wives.

(https://i.imgflip.com/191zuj.jpg)
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: trad123 on February 22, 2019, 11:50:10 PM
Trent teaches that one man and one woman is DIVINE LAW.  As I explained to you in my first post, the Church CANNOT "bind or loose" divine law.  Period.  End of thread.

OP, don't be so foolish as to commit a mortal sin against the faith. You're falling under an anathema, if you persist.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: poche on February 23, 2019, 12:53:15 AM
I'd like to see the Catholic Church bring back multiple wives as an option for men who seek marriage like back in Abraham's and the early Hebrews' days. Righteous Abraham, King David and King Solomon had multiple wives.  

We know in Matthew 16:16-19, Jesus Christ gave Peter the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven to bind and loosen on earth, and the same will be bound and loosened in Heaven. This doesn't only mean retaining and forgiving sins, and rendering and lifting the temporal punishment tied to the sin. It, also, means "by making rules and laws for the government of the Church" as stated in the commentary of Haydock Catholic Bible apropos to the aforementioned scripture. It seems the number of wives allowed for a husband by the Church is a disciplinary law, which can change by what is deemed by the Successor of Peter, but Divine Law can never change (truth can't change - God can't change), and such Divine Law is for the man to remain faithful to his wife or wives and not commit adultery and fornication with women outside of his marriage(s), along with the other moral duties of the husband towards his wife or wives.

I think multiple wives is one of the solutions to, and hedges against, feminism and a contentious wife. Women naturally compete with each other to please the central figure in their lives, which in this case would be their husband, thereby, receiving the affection & security they desire from him. If other wives are in this same husband's life, she will not disgruntle him over trivial matters or for selfish reasons (which is all too common in marriages in this post-modern world), because his favor & affection will shift towards the other wives, although he must still love and support the wife with whom he has retracted much of his favor. Also, in a group setting with other women, these same women will usually check their inner resentments, objections, and dislikes for the other women in order to get along as a cohesive group, because they know their very survival depends on it. This is an intuitive defense mechanism of normal, healthy women in any group setting containing a plurality of women.
So, like the whole group of women could get together and gang up on the poor fellow?
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Judith 15 Ten on February 23, 2019, 05:39:17 AM
No, it applies to polygamy as well because Christ refers to “the beginning” (ie Eden) to show that God designed marriage as between 1 man and 1 woman.  The old law had exceptions for both divorce and polygamy, yet Christ is saying this was/is not God's true plan. 

Wrong. Christ is referring only to divorce. Here is His exact words:

8 ) He saith to them: Moses because of the hardness of your hearts permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9) *And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery; and he who shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery. ~ Matthew 19:8-9 (Douay-Rheims)

Nowhere is He even implying it is now prohibited for a man to have multiple wives. He is saying the husband can't divorce any of his wives (nor can any of the wives divorce the husband).

And the Divine Law pertains to the spouses being faithful to each other, lest they break the Commandment "thou shalt not commit adultery" ... the Divine Law isn't a man can only marry one wife, that's only a disciplinary law codified by the Church, but it can be loosened by the Successor of Peter using the Keys (Matthew 16:16-19).
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: forlorn on February 23, 2019, 06:13:21 AM
Wrong. Christ is referring only to divorce. Here is His exact words:

8 ) He saith to them: Moses because of the hardness of your hearts permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9) *And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery; and he who shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery. ~ Matthew 19:8-9 (Douay-Rheims)

Nowhere is He even implying it is now prohibited for a man to have multiple wives. He is saying the husband can't divorce any of his wives (nor can any of the wives divorce the husband).

And the Divine Law pertains to the spouses being faithful to each other, lest they break the Commandment "thou shalt not commit adultery" ... the Divine Law isn't a man can only marry one wife, that's only a disciplinary law codified by the Church, but it can be loosened by the Successor of Peter using the Keys (Matthew 16:16-19).
Quote
CANON II.-If any one saith, that it is lawful for Christians to have several wives at the same time, and that this is not prohibited by any divine law; let him be anathema.

No matter how you twist it Trent condemns exactly what you're saying. By saying that Christians having several wives is not against Divine Law but only Church Law, you are directly contradicting Trent here. It does not mention divorce, you'd have to be the most slippery of Rabbis to try and twist a very plainly stated sentence that does not even imply divorce to somehow be about it. 
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Judith 15 Ten on February 23, 2019, 06:29:08 AM
"CANON II.-If any one saith, that it is lawful for Christians to have several wives at the same time, and that this is not prohibited by any divine law; let him be anathema."
No matter how you twist it Trent condemns exactly what you're saying. By saying that Christians having several wives is not against Divine Law but only Church Law, you are directly contradicting Trent here. It does not mention divorce, you'd have to be the most slippery of Rabbis to try and twist a very plainly stated sentence that does not even imply divorce to somehow be about it.

I've already refuted this argument several times. Try reading the thread before making hasty posts, and learn how to read.

Matthew 19:8-9 is strictly in reference to divorce, which is what Pax Vobis tried to conflate with multiple wives being outlawed, but those verses don't even hint at multiple wives. Not even Haydock Catholic Bible commentary speaks of it as referring to outlawing multiple wives.

Take your strawman and shove it where the sun don't shine, boy. (and learn how to read)

The Trent Canon II is in regard to not committing adultery. Committing adultery can occur in the current Sacrament of one husband and one wife, when at least one of them cheats on the other spouse, or it can occur in a marriage where a man is married to several wives like the early Hebrews. If an early Hebrew husband had 5 wives, and he had relations with a woman who wasn't his wife, he broke the Divine Law "thou shalt no commit adultery", which is what Trent Canon II is saying.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: forlorn on February 23, 2019, 07:04:46 AM
The Trent Canon II is in regard to not committing adultery. Committing adultery can occur in the current Sacrament of one husband and one wife, when at least one of them cheats on the other spouse, or it can occur in a marriage where a man is married to several wives like the early Hebrews. If an early Hebrew husband had 5 wives, and he had relations with a woman who wasn't his wife, he broke the Divine Law "thou shalt no commit adultery", which is what Trent Canon II is saying.
It never mentions or implies adultery. Nice try though. 
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: 2Vermont on February 23, 2019, 07:26:41 AM
Just curious, Matthew, why do you let Croix/Quid keep signing back up after having been banned?  This is the second time I know of that he's created a new account after you banned him.

[Edited to Add] :  you're very quick with the downthumb, Croix.  You've been downthumbing every single post of mine for months now, under one identity or another.
Good for traffic? Besides (and I know the situation is somewhat different) we've got Sean posting as X now too.

As for the down thumbing, I believe the same thing has happened with my account.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: 2Vermont on February 23, 2019, 07:28:44 AM
Before you get multiple wives you gotta get one.
:jester:

Best Quote of the Thread.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Vintagewife3 on February 23, 2019, 07:41:07 AM
So, what your saying is you want to live like a Jєω...? Gotcha.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Judith 15 Ten on February 23, 2019, 09:16:45 AM
So, what your saying is you want to live like a Jєω...? Gotcha.

Duuuhhhhhh, is that supposed to be an ad hominem attack? Don't you know that the Faith of the early Hebrews was the genesis of the Catholic Faith/Church? Are you conflating the early Hebrews with the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan (to which belongs most, if not all, of 2Vermont's family) spoken about in Revelation 2:9 & 3:9?

Duuhhhhh ... Duuhhhhhhhhhhh .....Duuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Caraffa on February 23, 2019, 09:23:50 AM
Part of the problem with Croix/Judith's take on polygamy is the naivete and lack of weariness. One should already see what too much polygamy ended up doing to King Solomon. Got wealth OP? In polygamous societies, to say the two are strongly linked is an understatement.

However, he certainty started a fire with this thread and others here with their responses have reduced its size. With the water that's left, I'm going to extinguish the last flame.

Wait...what's this? 

It appears I don't have any water left, but instead a tank of gasoline.

Use it on the last flame?

I shouldn't; should I?

Gasoline is just as true as water.


Fire, meet Gasoline:

February 15, 1650
Nuremberg, Bavaria
Catholic Congress of Franconia

The Franconian Diet with approval from the Archbishops of Bamberg and Wurzburg:

Article 1: During an interval of ten years, reckoning from this day, no man will admitted into a monastery who has not reached his sixtieth year.

Article 2: All priests and curates not belonging to a religious house or chapter are to marry without delay.

Article 3: Any man is allowed to marry two wives; but husbands are advised, and they will often be reminded of it from the pulpit, that if the fate of two persons is entrusted to them, they must in turn behave discreetly and prudently, provide for them sufficiently in the first instance, and then take measures to prevent hatred springing up between them.


:popcorn:
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: forlorn on February 23, 2019, 11:26:29 AM
CANON II.-If any one saith, that it is lawful for Christians to have several wives at the same time, and that this is not prohibited by any divine law; let him be anathema.

A N A T H E M A

No mention of adultery whatsoever, no matter how you try to lie and twist it to suit yourself.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Ladislaus on February 23, 2019, 11:47:27 AM
Where in Trent does it say that it's ex cathedra that the pope can't loosen the one wife restriction to multiple wives?

What part of Trent where the Church teaches that it is DIVINE law do you not comprehend?  Church cannot change divine law.  Period.  This is not a disciplinary matter like priestly celibacy that can be changed.  You keep babbling on about how it's current law.  Current divine law.  Unless God would make another public revelation that He's changing it, the Church is powerless to do so.  Except the Church also teaches that public revelation has ceased.  So the matter is not open ti debate.  Your position is in fact heretical.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Ladislaus on February 23, 2019, 11:52:48 AM
#impotency

Grow up, would you?  I'm not overweight either.  He just says that because I argued against his refined sugar diet that healthy fats are essential for human health.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Vintagewife3 on February 23, 2019, 12:14:43 PM
Grow up, would you?  I'm not overweight either.  He just says that because I argued against his refined sugar diet that healthy fats are essential for human health.
Lad, don’t even acknowledge it. I’m sure it’s in way hurtful/upsetting, but he’d be shocked at what people actually looked like. He has self esteem issues, and is probably an incel (because of his behavior). He’s jealous you’re married, and a successful husband.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Stanley N on February 23, 2019, 01:44:09 PM
February 15, 1650
Nuremberg, Bavaria
Catholic Congress of Franconia

The Franconian Diet with approval from the Archbishops of Bamberg and Wurzburg:

Article 1: During an interval of ten years, reckoning from this day, no man will admitted into a monastery who has not reached his sixtieth year.

Article 2: All priests and curates not belonging to a religious house or chapter are to marry without delay.

Article 3: Any man is allowed to marry two wives; but husbands are advised, and they will often be reminded of it from the pulpit, that if the fate of two persons is entrusted to them, they must in turn behave discreetly and prudently, provide for them sufficiently in the first instance, and then take measures to prevent hatred springing up between them.
Here's a subreddit discussing this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/5gzgx8/on_february_14_1650_the_parliament_at_nürnberg/

In short, the Wikipedia page on polygyny has 6 refs for this, one is a 1790 journal with the text (saying 10 wives), 3 are probably references to the 1790 text (one is a general genealogy handbook, one seems to be a 1859 Protestant tract, probably anti-Catholic, and the third is a biography of Philip of Hesse). The remaining two are scholarly references. One says this body didn't meet during this time and there is no record in proper archives, and the other says the 1790 journal is a popular journal, not state archives, and this is a literary fantasy.

Even IF it were true, it would be a political act, not a Church act - the referenced archbishops were prince-bishops. The prince-bishop of Bamberg at that time spent 10 years as bishop-elect without being consecrated bishop. The prince-bishopric of Wurzburg in 1650 was held by the archbishop-elector of Maintz.

Now Philip of Hesse did live in bigamy, with the approval of some Lutheran theologians. (There is dispute whether Luther approved it.)
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: Endeavor on February 23, 2019, 02:30:04 PM
I think the question is this: Can someone with Multiple Personality Disorder, low self esteem, and Arrested
Development have multiple wives? 
Also, projects his short comings onto others. My guess would be no.  ::)
Title: Philip of Hesse
Post by: Stanley N on February 23, 2019, 02:58:50 PM
Early Lutheran theologians were against divorce, but apparently thought that the Bible did not explicitly forbid polygamy.

Luther said that monogamy is the standard under normal circuмstances, but extreme exceptions could exist. I can't find a reference, but I believe Luther gave as an example, a wife with leprosy. He apparently felt, among evil things, bigamy was better than divorce or adultery. He also said the state could not legalise polygamy in general.
Quote
I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture. If a man wishes to marry more than one wife he should be asked whether he is satisfied in his conscience that he may do so in accordance with the word of God. In such a case the civil authority has nothing to do in the matter.
Philip Melanchthon said that Henry VIII had no need to risk schism to divorce his first wife, but could have married another.

Philip of Hesse married Christine of Saxony in 1523. He was 19 and she was a few days short of 18 at the time. Philip committed adultery within a "few weeks". (That sounds to me like he was unfit for marriage.)

After years of Philip living "constantly in a state of adultery and fornication" (per Luther), and with some degree of approval from Lutheran theologians and from his wife, he took a second "wife" in 1540. It is said that Philip found Christine ugly, but he had 7 children with her by 1540 and would have 3 more before she died in 1549. He had 9 children with his second "wife", 6 while Christine was alive.

Luther allegedly gave his advice in the confessional and did not formally acknowledge he had approved the 1540 marriage.
Title: Re: Bring Back Multiple Wives?
Post by: 2Vermont on February 23, 2019, 08:34:50 PM
Duuhhhhh ... Duuhhhhhhhhhhh .....Duuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
:laugh1: